11 replies to this topic

[Groundpound Devalis]

I really love MWO, it is a work in progress, and not perfect but I love it. AT THIS POINT PLEASE JUMP TO BOTTOM TO SEE SOLUTIONS OFFERED.

In my opinion what we have now is over nerfing clan weapon and mechs, and an over buffing of Innersphere. I am tired of these changes being made in the name of "balance". Balance is not whats happening.

I guess I just have a different view of what fair and unbiased balance is.

I want equal but different. I dont mean a 30 ton mech should be able to go toe to toe with an assault, but right now that is damn near what we have. Firestarters are insane. Far worse than Spiders ever were, as they have the same buggy hitboxes, and lag armor... only with way way more firepower that is near instant damage. Near Instant/direct damage that ONLY Innersphere mechs get now. I will stop rambling on about direct damage and near instant damage all being on one side of the fence only. I won't bring up time to kill being lopsided as well.

Pilot skill level is a huge factor on why clans keep winning at barely a majority %. It has nothing to do with clan tech. The most elite Innersphere teams that are on par or better then the best Clan teams rarely lose. When they do lose it is because they don't have their "A-Team" playing.

ENOUGH VENTING on to solutions!

SOLUTIONS: I like them all wouldn't even be against all being implemented.

Option 1: Weapon system differences and yet balanced. Long range need to be returned to TT values(30 meters per hex), then you can use the nifty MWO extended range values with damage reduction. This sets up a unique play style for each faction. Yes Clan gets a range advantage, which they will be encouraged to actually use or be over run by faster fire rates. Also, IS has an option to extend range at a heat penalty, yet keep the rate of fire advantage.

Simplified examples: Rough example numbers! These damage and heat numbers vary from TT to bring about unbiased balance. They are also loose numbers not set in stone.

Clan ER Large 16 damage, 12 Heat, 1 Second Burn, 5 Second CD, 750 Meters

IS ER Large 8 damage, 8 heat, 1 Second Burn, 2 Second CD, 570 Meters

IS Large Laser 8 damage, 6 heat, 1 Second Burn, 2 Second CD, 450 Meters

Clan Large Pulse 10 damage, 8 heat, 0.5 Second Burn, 2.5 Second CD, 600 Meters

IS Large Pulse 5 damage, 4 heat, 0.5 Second Burn, 1 Second CD, 300 Meters

I would keep all standard/ER/heavy lasers at 1 second for burn and adjust cds for med and small. Same thing keep Med and small pulse at 0.5 burn as well

Clan ER PPC 15 damage, 15 heat, 6 second CD (no more arcing damage)690 Meters

IS PPC 5 damage, 5 heat, 2 second CD, 540 Meters

IS ER PPC 5 damage, 6 heat, 2 second CD 690 Meters

Yes the clan damage on PPCs is front loaded (advantage) but if they miss... IS gets a massive advantage by their less all or nothing approach. Again unique play styles but balanced.

Guass Rifles on both sides are balanced. I see no reason to change them, unless we want to dump the charge up, but keep the only fire 2 at a time.

Clan autocannons are atrocious. At this point, I don't even know where to begin to attempt to balance the embodiment of death itself (aka IS Autocannons) and the magic fairy dust princess (clan) version. Mind you the clan version sounds cool.

Missiles. I would change IS missile to behave exactly like Clan stream instead of blob. I know they weigh more but that is okay because the last part of this option is 10 v 12. Numbers. I pushed hard for a numbers advantage(Literally, Russ told me no and to drop it) to make up for weapon count. It can be a good way to balance. Lighter weight therefore more weapons(clan) against more opponents(IS) is a good thing. It would balance out. If 2 isn't enough hey go 9 v 12.

This would reduce the need for chassis quirks but not get rid of them(keeping it to vague quirks rather than specific weapon), and make Module selection easy and more valuable as THAT would be the specific weapon bonus.

Option 2: BV system enhanced by ELO. This system would allow Mechs to remain as is. Some chassis are simply superior to others and thats OKAY!

Rather than negative quirk some and over quirk others....

Assign each chassis a BV based on potential performance(no more negative quirks). Then assign each weapon its own BV. Lag armor is still very much a thing so speed should effect BV as well. At 100 kph BV=x and for each 10 additional kph add more BV. Main reason why this is needed is simple, Fast light mechs are like "The Flash" they move and see things faster. They jump off a cliff get stuck in a tree and they see that. What we see, is them jump off a cliff and warp back and forth hovering indefinitely. A speed tweaked 170 kph Locust can even be in two places at once at times.

Total these values up. Lets say it equals 1000 BV... Better example, so this Hunchback 4G is at 1000 BV. Obviously this Hunchback is more deadly in some hands in comparison to others (some pilots are just better than others). How do we factor that in? Easy. Elo, and not some crappy team average elo, individual player elo. The Average Elo in the game is y (notice Im not even going to attempt to assign a number) there is sub y and above y. Now PGI can break Elo down into brackets which will add a multiplier. The best part is people will know their Elo bracket!!!

(for you table top experienced players. Elo is Piloting and gunnery skill)

The average elo is a multiplier of 1.0 (duh I know). The best players in the game are at multuplier of 1.5, the worst at 0.5. So that same built Hunchback 4G at 1000 BV can be anything in value(during a match) between 500 BV in "still learning hands" to 1500 BV in "Elite hands". This system could bend and flex to make MM a dream. Best yet, no more punishing superior players OR nerfing chassis.

Changes needed? Something too powerful? Don't make it bad... simply adjust BV of specific weapons/chassis as a simple means of balancing. Base value of the Timberwolf too low? No problem add to it. This would stop penalizing players because they like a specific mech. If PGI gets ballsy they could even break down a players elo based on each specific variant!

BUT WAIT!!!! There's more... Lets move this to CW.

Each player now gets a set BV instead of tonnage. Tonnage per player just is not an effective way to balance a match. Some 50 ton mechs are better than others. Premade groups will be encouraged because they can pool their BV. If each player can bring in 5,000 BV then a premade 8 man team has a pooled total of 40,000 BV. So that one great Light Pilot can bring all light mechs and come in way under 5,000. His left over goes to the rest of his 8 man team. So while this allows for min/max type situations, thanks to BV being a close way to balance matches the other group even if PuGs has a greater chance to put up a close fight.

I actually have a way more detailed explanation of BV system... but this post is too long already.

Okay community I am ready... Flame on!!!

[happy mech]

first thing that came to my mind was: clan player
sorry, but you cannot give rocks only to one side and scissors (with some short range paper) only to the other side, that is not balance

if a battle value is a combination of mech+equipment (same for all) and elo (changeable by player) it will be exploited

[Groundpound Devalis]

Thank you for your response. I am not seeing the rocks only to one side thing. Innersphere gets triple the fire rate. They shot 3 times to Clan 1. So yeah clans in return hit harder per shot but shoot way less often. Let's say in a 1v1 both pilots miss only their first shot, the IS guy still has 2 more shots before the clan guy shoots again. Let's say in a perfect world with 100% accuracy... It's still even. If range is your only concern, please remember its 12 Innersphere mechs against at the most 10 clan.

In regards to a Battle value. Yes a player can tank his matches to lower his BV, I mean it is elo based, but as soon as he steps up to the plate to actually perform it goes back up. Also, it's a much better way to balance then over buffing and over nerfing.

Thank you for the response, if you care to explain the give rocks to only one player thing I would be able to better explain. While my tag is clan now, I play both sides, even fought for IS during BoT. I have a respectable kdr, been playing since closed beta. Innersphere mechs are superior right now, maybe not the player base, but the mechs themselves are.

Again I truly appreciate feedback, especially from people who can look past their own personal agenda and seek a real balance.

Edited by Groundpound, 01 June 2015 - 06:28 AM.

[Here5y]

happy mech, on 01 June 2015 - 05:48 AM, said:

first thing that came to my mind was: clan player
sorry, but you cannot give rocks only to one side and scissors (with some short range paper) only to the other side, that is not balance

if a battle value is a combination of mech+equipment (same for all) and elo (changeable by player) it will be exploited

Well, ELO only is exploited also :-D. Always go for the Mechs with more possible Damage Output first - like 1-3 Dires and then fill it up with the next most possible Damage Output. Never go for Lights, because your influence on the Match isn`t that high, because you need a team to keep the enemies busy.

Without that distraction against enemies that can shoot your light mech wont stand a chance.

Just to make shure it is understood: ELO only matchmaking is already exploited, on the other hand if matchmaking works you need to pick optimal builds and most optimal mechs - otherwise your chances to win drop quite dramatically.

Edited by Plizzken, 01 June 2015 - 06:57 AM.

[Groundpound Devalis]

Huh, I guess you are right. It can't be option 1 or 2. My options need each other. Battle Value would limit taking all the best clan mechs, because you would need to go against an equal battle value. 3 Direwolves would end up against 10 IS mechs. In mwo numbers mean a lot.


It goes without saying taking the best mechs right now is the only way to win. I know a battle value, modified by elo system could open the door to more viable options. As it would severally limit extreme power house team builds. No more 3 direwolf, 3 timber, 3 crow, and for clan who cares what lights... Those teams would not be possible.

In community warfare, you will find IS will come in heavier and still have a numbers advantage, keeping it balanced.

[Cimarb]

I agree with all of your ideas, but do have two small concerns.

I am all for a BV system, but then you mention 10v12. You really have to use BV for both public and CW matches to make it work, imo.

The only other thing is range. While I like shortening ranges across the board, you start getting some really, really small values. The IS small pulse, for instance, would have a MAX range of 90 meters, while the Clan version would go out to double that, which is a significant difference.

Small things, but just making a "I agree with all this" post seemed pretty lame, lol...

[Pariah Devalis]

While I know you are trying to come up with a method of balancing the game in an equitable manner for both Clan and IS, I find I must err on the side of K.I.S.S. While some weapon systems need QOL changes, on both sides of the tech line, to make them absolutely worth taking, changing each thing is not strictly necessary as they could be given appropriate values for their usability.

Some weapons are in need of serious help, of course, but are generally simple fixes, like increasing velocity on PPCs/ERPPCs (and upping the pinpoint damage on Clan ERPPC - either with or without any splash), or changing the burst duration and velocity of Clan UACs. However, I do not think every single weapon system needs to be ground up redone.

That said, if every weapon system in the game can be brought to an acceptable level of usability (to be determined either by developers or as close to unbiased player feedback as possible), and a value assigned to these weapons that makes sense for what they do, that would be a good step. Expand that to a value for Endo and Ferro, with endo costing significantly more than ferro to give some purpose to the later. ECM, (B)AP, MASC, Artemis, or other equipment or upgrades should have a value assigned to them. That said, care needs to be taken as not even the almighty table top rules did BV right. There was the crazy "omnimech tax," or atrocious cost values assigned to MASC and arguably targeting computers (though admittedly TarComps were powerful as can be in TT).

If sensible values can then be applied to all weapons, upgrades, and equipment, with upgrade costs being scaled based on either weight of the mech or the number of launchers (in the case of artemis), this would be a good way to set a base value for a given mech. You would still need to integrate some sort of pilot based modifier to that value, however. Elo, therefore, would not be eliminated. It would simply be a part of the BV calculations.

Once you have your BV calculations figured, the game's matchmaker could set a BV flexibility window to match opposing teams within a certain fudge range for matching. The end result should allow matching based not just on what the player's skill is, but what the player brought as well. A bad player in a light mech makes for a far smaller liability than a bad player in an assault, and this sort of matching would take both the player and the mech into account accordingly.

Values tunable once weapons are acceptable:

• BV for Weapons
  
• BV for Equipment
  
• BV for Upgrades
  
• BV scaling for Tonnage
  
• BV modification from Elo
  
• Matchmaking Fudge Tolerances

Edited: Removed redundancies. Edited paragraph. Added an edited section. Edited the edited section. Derped a herp.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 01 June 2015 - 09:14 AM.

[Groundpound Devalis]

I agree, some changes to laser range might be needed as the pulse laser ranges are completely lopsided, doubled range. But (C)ER Large to ER Large is a pretty good difference for unique play style. So maybe clan pulse come in at IS standard laser range. At least until x-pulse. Erppc's do match already.

[Groundpound Devalis]

different extended range values. IS get what we have now. Clan only get an additional 50% range before it falls to zero damage.

[Nightmare1]

TT does not equal MWO.

Use MW4 as a basis instead. No TT.

[Bows3r]

May I just mention, CW isn't the only way to play the game. And 15 PPFLD ER-PPC's would be completely broken. Forget Gauss Rifles. Quad Gauss Warhawk's. Dual Gauss Adder's. Dual Gauss pop-tart Nova's. Would be insane.

Edited by Bows3r, 01 June 2015 - 11:20 AM.

[happy mech]

rules i go by:

• 12 v 12, 1 v 1, etc
  
• BT is for inspiration, not to cripple the game

how i would balance/check the things:
1. remove consumables, target decay, radar deprivation, seismic sensor, ecm, 2 sec target lock retention and make a working game without them, possibly reduce sensor range to 600m
they do things that mechs should do (pushing, information warfare and support)

2. balance IS weapons between themselves (no quirks)
many mechs are useless because of their low placed or jack-of-all-trades hardpoints, because long range lasers/gauss/ppc on high mounts is the winner, lrms are useless for their tonnage
long range energy weapons need to be significantly less favourable than the low range ones, increase the cooldown and heatgen
internal and extarnal heatsinks need to have same dissipation so big mechs have an advantage in taking more heatsinks over the smaller mechs
heat cap needs to be fixed (suggested 30) to limit the alpha and poptart tactics
high range pinpoint like gauss and ppc need to have their cooldown increased (i suggest 8 sec) so it is harder to use them close range and need to equip backup weapons for that
remove shared lrm lock unless tag or narc (and suffer accuracy penalty), make lrms targetable only on own line of sight target and much more accurate (independent od 5/10/15/20), with longer cooldown

3. balance clan mechs between themselves
unlock equipment and upgrades to make clan mechs that are not tbr or scr not suck

4. balance clan weapons against IS weapons
make them as IS weapons, except with longer range and (or) lower tonnage, result will be any of:

• more heat
  
• longer duration
  
• longer cooldown

for example, clan erppc could be 7.5 damage with half cooldown instead of 15 damage normal cooldown (which is too high pinpoint), this would even make the whk-prime reasonable

gauss could be 7.5 damage no charge half cooldown to compensate for weighing 3 tons less
streaks and srms are too high alpha for low tonnage, need to fire like lrms
autocannons, i think with few adjustments they could be pretty good, or make them like IS but with lower damage and cooldown

5. cosmetic, after IS and clan weapons are working, add little quirks to differentiate between chassis variants which would otherwise be the same (hbk, stalker, all clans, etc)


i think we can have a good game with clans and IS being balanced 1:1

if you are interested, i have posted something on similar topic here http://mwomercs.com/...od-for-thought/

and instead of BV, use the tonnage (since we already have it) to determine team composition http://mwomercs.com/...-tonnage-limit/

i would keep creating decks (BV, or tonnage) and creating matches (elo) separate, do not mix those things

sorry for the clan stereotype troll

Edited by happy mech, 01 June 2015 - 11:52 AM.