25 replies to this topic

[Grimm Hammer]

I would like to ask the Devs why the clan lights are so slow when compared to the IS lights? You could say "well the Adder is a little Monster" and I would agree. But the Lynx and KitFox not so much. A FS9 can run all over and kill both with it's improved speed, mobility and firepower.

[Joseph Mallan]

Because the Clan Lights cannot change to whatever engine they want like the Inner Sphere can. Its in the rules for Omnis.

[FupDup]

Omnimech construction rules, specifically locked engines.

The engineers who designed the Clan lights wanted them to be cheaper-to-repair but weaker versions of medium mechs instead of traditional light mechs, and thus we arrive at where we are today. Their role was to be more affordable to purchase and maintain than medium mechs of the same speed.

Edited by FupDup, 29 May 2015 - 10:03 AM.

[1453 R]

Because fixed internals.

Clan 'Mechs have the advantages of vastly superior XL engines and the versatility of the Omnipod system. The primary price they pay for these advantages are locked internals, a'la lore. They can't change out their armor/structure, either type or slot locations, they can't change out certain fixed equipment as per the original TT loadouts, and most importantly they can't change out their engines.

If you look at 'stock' engines for the FS9, you'll find that a stock-speed Firestarter is actually not a single klick faster than an Adder or a Kit Fox, and is in fact slower than the Mist Lynx. The Jenner is only about fifteen klicks faster than the Adder, and the Cicada of all things ends up one of the fastest 'Mechs the Inner Sphere has left. The catch, of course, is that Spheroid 'Mechs, unlike Clan 'Mechs, are not stuck with their stock engines and can switch freely, and the Sphereoid light category especially tends towards tremendously bloated engine caps.

In the tabletop game an Adder is actually a nightmare opponent for most Inner Sphere light 'Mechs, and a hell of a fight for most Inner Sphere mediums, and also actually a very credible threat to Inner Sphere heavies and assaults, at least of this particular era. It's only in MWO where light 'Mechs that go slower than 140 are considered garbage; in the original source material, the 142kph speed point was actually considered absolutely blazing fast and very few 'Mechs made those speeds until significantly later on in the timeline.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Looking at the stock engines of IS light variants,

Firestarter 210 - 97.2 kph

Raven 175 - 81 kph / 97.2 kph

Jenner 245 - 113.4 kph

Panther 140 - 64.8 kph

Commando 150 - 97.2 kph

Current Clan Lights are at comparable speeds, according to stock engines in most cases.

So the main thing is the greater Engine allowances in comparison, and the open customization we have.

But the only detail I'd consider tweaking at this point is using Mech Weight to determine allowable Engine Ratings for all mechs. Meaning that a Commando would have 125, 150, 175 and so on, and where a Firestarter would be at 175, 210, 245 and so on.

[Scout Derek]

You know they can just always add a speed boost like they did to the Summoner

The Gargoyle has yet to Receive that boost (which it needs otherwise it's build is not cannon because stock speed is 86.4 while in MWO stock it goes 81)

[Joseph Mallan]

Praetor Knight, on 29 May 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

Looking at the stock engines of IS light variants,

But the only detail I'd consider tweaking at this point is using Mech Weight to determine allowable Engine Ratings for all mechs. Meaning that a Commando would have 125, 150, 175 and so on, and where a Firestarter would be at 175, 210, 245 and so on.

The only reason for this was having to count hexes and facing. In MW:O there is no reason to fix engine size this way. Now if PGI goes and makes it law... then I'll deal with it.

[Mcgral18]

There's always the Linebacker; a 107 Kph 65 tonner.


It would have the same base agility as the Adder and Cute Fox.

I'll laugh when that gets here. Especially if it gets quirks to be more agile than the Lights, like the Stormcrow currently is.

[Grimm Hammer]

I am familiar with the lore, but also in the lore they talk of Myomer Accelerated Signal Circuitry that allows the clan mechs sudden bursts of speed.

I am also familiar with the stock IS mech speeds but these are almost never employed in the MWO game. If you know of an FS9 running under 120kph that wasn't just purchased I would be shocked.

I am not asking for improved weapons or the ability to mount other engines. I would however like the Speed Burst kinetics from Lore employed.

I agree it's hard to run an adder when the SC is just as fast with more armor and weapons to bare.

[Joseph Mallan]

So far PGI hasn't been able to get that stuff to work.

[Mcgral18]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 May 2015 - 10:38 AM, said:

So far PGI hasn't been able to get that stuff to work.

It's less than a month away now.


We'll probably get a preview in two weeks.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Praetor Knight, on 29 May 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

Looking at the stock engines of IS light variants,

Firestarter 210 - 97.2 kph

Raven 175 - 81 kph / 97.2 kph

Jenner 245 - 113.4 kph

Panther 140 - 64.8 kph

Commando 150 - 97.2 kph

Current Clan Lights are at comparable speeds, according to stock engines in most cases.

So the main thing is the greater Engine allowances in comparison, and the open customization we have.

A lot of problems come about when you realize that PGI initially applied a proportionate engine cap to every 'mech- the maximum engine rating was some amount (25%? 30%?) higher than the engine normally mounted in the machine. You can still see a similar engine cap thing going on in Assault and Heavy 'mechs. Light 'mechs, however, all had their engine caps jacked way up through the roof because....


.....uh.....


......reasons?




I don't really follow on this decision, honestly. It created the illusion that the only use for a light 'mech is being a super-speedster, when in truth Panthers, Clan lights, and even the lowly (relatively) slowly Urbanmech are quite completely usable in support roles. Even Inner Sphere lights that are more often run at Ludicrous Speed can still be very nice support 'mechs with more reasonable engine sizes mounted in them- just, nobody seems to be actually willing to do it.

If we as a community could break through that illusion, there would be a lot less (frankly stupid) QQing about how Clan lights being slow makes them absolute trash, and a lot more pilots would feel like they could try things with Inner Sphere lights that (gasp) actually do work with them.

[Nocifer Deathblade]

So Clan mechs = Apple computers.. IS mechs = PC computers.. By that logic, Apple computer is slower than PC computer?

Edited by Nocifer Deathblade, 29 May 2015 - 10:49 AM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I run many of my IS lights at lower speeds right now to pack in a bit more firepower and/or BAP. And I don't have too much trouble in my Clan lights when I play smart and have a stable connection.

Many of my Commandos have 175 engines for example, and I'll soon be getting Panthers as soon as I save back up for them (I took advantage of the recent Clan sales to get some of those).

[Burktross]

The Kitfox is a little monster. I love it so much so that I've even considered betraying the IS just so I can play a dropdeck full of them.
It's such a nice jack of all trades mech...
All in a 30t package.

Just wait for the Cheetah, he'll be more like an IS light methinks.

[Pjwned]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 29 May 2015 - 10:46 AM, said:

A lot of problems come about when you realize that PGI initially applied a proportionate engine cap to every 'mech- the maximum engine rating was some amount (25%? 30%?) higher than the engine normally mounted in the machine. You can still see a similar engine cap thing going on in Assault and Heavy 'mechs. Light 'mechs, however, all had their engine caps jacked way up through the roof because....


.....uh.....


......reasons?




I don't really follow on this decision, honestly. It created the illusion that the only use for a light 'mech is being a super-speedster, when in truth Panthers, Clan lights, and even the lowly (relatively) slowly Urbanmech are quite completely usable in support roles. Even Inner Sphere lights that are more often run at Ludicrous Speed can still be very nice support 'mechs with more reasonable engine sizes mounted in them- just, nobody seems to be actually willing to do it.

If we as a community could break through that illusion, there would be a lot less (frankly stupid) QQing about how Clan lights being slow makes them absolute trash, and a lot more pilots would feel like they could try things with Inner Sphere lights that (gasp) actually do work with them.

The problem with being a support mech is that their DPS is generally pretty terrible, meanwhile if you load up on medium lasers and SRMs and such then they actually have pretty good DPS but that of course also means needing to go fast since your armor is still quite low.

It's not that great to be almost entirely relegated to only support as a light mech simply because you cannot go fast enough to do much of anything else, and while I'm not necessarily arguing with the whole implementation of clan lights, it's still kind of frustrating to see that IS lights can have respectable damage with short range weapons and have enough speed to live through various encounters when using those weapons when current clan lights can't really do that very well.

Edited by Pjwned, 29 May 2015 - 11:05 AM.

[EgoSlayer]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 May 2015 - 10:38 AM, said:

So far PGI hasn't been able to get that stuff to work.

It wasn't so much a matter of getting MASC to work, it was a matter of the mech they originally chose to try it on (the Flea) is too fast with MASC for HSR to work. The mechs that are coming in with MASC are all below that speed limit.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 29 May 2015 - 11:23 AM.

[Deathlike]

Let's be clear here...

Speed and tonnage generally dictate what your role is in the game.

In the case of the Adder, it's slow-Light/undersized/underarmored-Medium.

Once you get over that, it starts to make sense.

[Felio]

In Clan Wave III, the Arctic Cheetah will be the clans' answer to the SDR-5D -- almost the same speed, same tonnage, JJ and ECM.

For now, the Ice Ferret from Wave II goes almost at light-mech speeds, though it is 45 tons. Like a Cicada but 5 tons heavier, a little slower and no ECM variant.

That's it for the speedy clan 'mechs.

Edited by Felio, 29 May 2015 - 12:17 PM.

[FupDup]

Felio, on 29 May 2015 - 12:15 PM, said:

In Clan Wave III, the Arctic Cheetah will be the clans' answer to the SDR-5D -- almost the same speed, same tonnage, JJ and ECM.

For now, the Ice Ferret from Wave II goes almost at light-mech speeds, though it is 45 tons. Like a Cicada but 5 tons heavier, a little slower and no ECM variant.

That's it for the speedy clan 'mechs.

I don't think the Spider/Cheetah comparison is accurate, because the Cheetah will actually be an effective mech. This is because the Cheetah has actual firepower, while the Spider usually has pinprick tickleguns for a loadout.

A better comparison is that the Cheetah will be the Clan's answer to the Firestarter.