117 replies to this topic

[Madcap72]

As an aside I ran a joke build for the lulz/ bang out the 30 points because pugs were folding like cheap tables.
The Loyalty fatlas with 4x LRM 10's and 4x MPL's is pretty freaking hilarious.

My LRM 5 Cat is still WAY better... but the Atlas has this ability to just crank out consistent mediocre games with zero effort regardless of team ability. It wasn't a c-bill farmer by any means, but it gave nice consistent 150k c-bill games.

[Lykaon]

nehebkau, on 29 May 2015 - 12:52 PM, said:

Yes I have played LRM boats lately -- they are a true feast or famine weapon.

IF the enemy has limited ECM OR you have a NARCer OR you have a TAGer they are good
and IF you have team-mates who assist you they are good
and IF you stay within 400M of your target they are good
( as an aside and IF they are your secondary weapon systems they are good)

IF you have none of the above -- they are a waste of drop tonnage.

( the play was in CW and It was while pugging -- i was doing it just because I rarely use them)

Yeah I hear ya on that.

LRMs more than any other weapon are a TEAM based weapon. Frequently a poor performance from an LRM carrier can be traced directly to poor team work. (that is as long as the LRM boat pilot isn't a window licking furniture humper).

No other weapon system is as heavily "taxed" as LRMs.

Ammo dependency

massive min range

slowest projectile speed

ECM proliferation

Expenditure of tonnage,crit slots and weapon hardpoints to equip enough counter measures to maybe have a chance vs multiple ECM.

Team support required to maximize all features.No spotters mean no indirect fire!

All of these effects are a "tax" on LRM use.

I am honestly amazed that LRM use has no become exstinct. With the massive proliferation of LRM counter measures I can't imagine how it's possible that the "best players in the game" being a "small minority" are the few that grasp that MWo offers an ocean of LRM counters for the targets and an seemingly endless amount of hoop jumping for the LRM users.

If I want to counter enemy LRM use I pack an ECM a radar deprivation module and for overkill AMS.On a reasonably agile mech (fast enough to seek cover to make maximum use of the radar derper) I have now made LRMs practicaly a non issue for my mech.3 tons and a module slot and I am nearly immune to LRMs.

To counter this my oponent in the LRM boat that has already spent 25-30 tons on launchers and ammo vs my 3 tons of countermeasures now needs to add a BAP a TAG NARC UAV targeting modules or sensor enhancing modules etc to counter my counters at a potential cost of weapon hardpoints to boot! as well as needing to actually hit me with a TAG or a NARC vs my need to simply remember in mechlab to equip an ECM and radar derper.

The whole ECM/LRM/Info Warfare mechanics are garbage.

[Ovion]

You forgot Vertical cover + ceiling limit (hard to use in tunnels - 'indoors'). (No other weapon worries about this)
Incoming Missile warning. (No other weapon tells you you're being shot at, letting you know to hide)
NARC / TAG warnings (letting you know you've been targetted so you can hide)
Lock Times. (Can't fire without having to hold the target for X long)
Hold Lock (Need to hold that lock the entire duration of flight, up to 8 seconds - people complain about a 2 seconds burn on CERLL on the Timber wolf - screw you guys!)
Unable to target components (reliant on games autoplacing, and where the target decides to be after the warning)

[Nocifer Deathblade]

My favorite LRM boat mech is King Crab with 4xLRM10 +Artemis (not linked to each other) with tag plus one E Large Laser with 1280 LRM ammo. It's beast doing very well at start of game to do lot of damage then rest of my teams mop up the rest that usually end up a win. Usually do 400-600 score on average which isn't bad for LRM boat itself. Hard to kill however because it takes time for missile to land the hit while other mechs makes the kill before missile hits. Best use of missiles launch is on high health of any slow moving mechs and bring their health down fast so other mechs can make killing easier. LRM boat role I notice is just to soften up mechs and also as used as suppression to force mechs to retreat or run for cover exposing themselves to our mechs for easy kills.

Edited by Nocifer Deathblade, 01 June 2015 - 06:13 AM.

[Astrocanis]

Khobai, on 30 May 2015 - 12:21 PM, said:

Again this is where much of the hostility against LRMs comes from. Because kills/scoring in the game is based on selfish individual motivations rather than the team winning as a whole. They need to change the kills/scoring system to encourage teamwork more IMO.

I was with you up to this point.  A skilled LRMer is a major asset to a team if he uses his abilities for fire-suppression and support.  If the only thing you watch are kills/damage, then you are missing the point for a larger contribution.  My KTO-18(C) has 5xALRM5.  It moves 90kph.  It has two MPL on it (which I get a large amount of my kills from).  I can drive Assaults into the mouth of the dragon by prodding them.  I can direct fire a "poke" location until my team has the ability to nail the poker.I find my LRMs to be extremely useful, and I also score quite a few kills because of them, even if the kills aren't LRM kills.I think they're fine.  They are easy to use and to do very little with (barring luck), but difficult to use well.  Which means I kill a lot of LRM boats who think of themselves as "2400 LRM turrets".

Edited by Astrocanis, 01 June 2015 - 07:12 AM.

[Flagrant]

My aws 8r satisfies the itch for lrm eye candy. If the team I'm with is decent lrm boats are king. Super easy mode. Really overpowered. It's so strong I feel like I'm cheating. This is why I only have 1 lrm boat in my collection.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Yes, I run LRMs fairly regularly in both group and solo queue. And I don't really "boat" them. That said, I only have four mechs with LRMs:
-CPLT-A1 w/ 4x LRM-5s and 2x LRM-10s
-Mad Doge w/ 6x LRM-5s and 5x ERSLs
-TBT-7M w/ 2x LRM-15s, 2x MLs, and TAG
-AWS-PB w/ LRM-15, 2x LRM-5s, 2x LLs, and TAG

The closest I've ever owned to an LRM barge was a BLR-1S w/ 4x LRM-10s and 4x MLs with an XL360.



LRMs are low skill floor weapon much like lasers. Splashing a bit of damage here and there is relatively easy and both are forgiving weapons for newer players allowing them to easily deal some damage and make some CBills.

Direct fire weapons like lasers are simple because "see enemy, shoot enemy." You don't even need to hit R to target them, just move small circle over mech, pull trigger, hold small circle over enemy until pretty lights stop.

LRMs are simple because they are essentially a self targeting weapon. I see enemy, I hit R, I hold small circle in box until big circle turns red, and I pull trigger. Then the next step is to verify a hit, did you hit? Yes? Launch another salvo. No? Relocate, then launch another salvo.

The difference between the lasers and LRMs and getting consistency out of them is night and day, however. Getting consistent performance out of lasers requires a steady hand and developed fine tuned motor skills. Doing well with direct fire weapons requires more mechanical skill.

LRMs on the other hand, require minimal amounts of mechanical dexterity for their use. Maintaining a lock is simple, you don't need to stare at your target especially with advanced target decay, you simply need to look at your target every few seconds to drag your crosshair (and preferably with TAG) across the enemy to maintain the lock and fire another salvo.

The biggest deciding factor in how well you do with LRMs is your skill in reading the map, skill in proper positioning, and how proactive you are in getting your own locks.

The first two points can be said for direct fire weapons too. A player with great mechanical skill but poor map knowledge and poor positioning choices is going to lose trades to someone with proper map knowledge and a superior choice in position, even if that person has inferior mechanical skills or even LRMs.

I started this game using ballistics and lasers and developed my mechanical proficiency in this game. I eventually hit a brick wall. There were players I played with that I could just not ever out trade and my personal performance hit a brick wall. I loathed LRMs because the indirect fire on them was annoying and there always seemed to be an idiot on my team in a D-DC with LRMs going "hold locks for me."

Then I started to play with a better group of players and watched how well they'd do. They'd have guys raking in damage with everything, LRMs included. The things that I noticed is not just where they'd go on a map, but exactly how they would position themselves. And I decided to emulate how they were doing things and I broke past that plateau. I broke past it by using LRMs.

By learning to LRM, I greatly increased my effectiveness with direct fire weapons as well due to the knowledge I picked up by learning to LRM. I had essentially gotten as good mechanically as I'm ever going to be with lasers and ballistics, but learning proper positioning techniques, map knowledge, and a bit of battlefield anticipation I learned how to win trades with more than brute force mechanical skill.

That said, after getting good with LRMs, I'm still better with lasers and cannons. They're just a more efficient weapon than LRMs. And the useful information and skillset I picked up from LRMs carried over very well to direct fire, it's just the skills you learn from direct fire proficiency doesn't carry over to LRMs.

So LRMs can really only carry you so far up the ladders because eventually you need to learn to direct fire, and you can learn all the skills LRMs teach without needing to use LRMs. I just think LRMs are a better way to learn how to properly position yourself, how to properly read a battle, and how to anticipate the battle unfolding because of how much more sensitive LRMs are to errors in positioning and map anticipation.

Also, a lot of the times it's just fun to play with LRMs.

Edited by Lord Scarlett Johan, 01 June 2015 - 07:56 AM.

[Novakaine]

Hey you know me I love lurms.
My Stalkers and my Hunchie J are my favorites.
However there a a few caveats.
1. Carry the appropriate modules nuff said.
2. If yea gonna pack em then pack em, not a single lrm5 really.
3. Be aggressive stay with the knuckle draggers, the enemy has to go thru them to get to you.
4. Lrm brawlin Novakaine style, watch the minimum range and get in there, but pack a fist full of laser and such.
5. Ecm mechs gettin ya down, well screw em and don't shoot bubble plain and simple.
A. Target the git running around by himself.
B. Use that cursor the missiles can be dumb fired it works.
6. Get your fellow boats to shoot at the same target, your lrm 80 is nasty but that lrm 320 is down right murderous.
7. Last but not least after ya fired off our load your damage potential goes to hell, but remember your still riding a 85 ton and hopefully undamaged brute use it.
Pack some damn backup - seriously.

[Novakaine]

Jman5, on 30 May 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:

Well this is unfair. Bandito attributes my success with LRMs to my mech, you attribute my success to my pilot skill. So my results are meaningless? Does this mean we have to throw out anything EMP or SJR players say because they are good pilots playing quirked mechs?

Look at the end of the day the two biggest advantages of LRMs are the damage over time combined with the ability to fire from cover. I don't have to tell you all how many super-alphas are flying around. Exposed mechs get obliterated fast. You can out trade almost other weapon system because you can often fire from almost total safety. Hit efficiency is much less important when the enemy can't hit you back.
btw you can't really cross compare weapons from the stat sheet because accuracy efficiency stat on lasers is bogus. if you brush a mech for 0.1 damage it counts as a 100% hit even if you miss the rest of the beam duration. missiles and ballistics on the other hand are individually tracked.

For missiles "hit" is calculated for each missile so of course your damage is going to be 1.0 (that's how much damage 1 missile does).

Ok so this afternoon I played a random BS warhawk with 3 LRM 15s, 1 LRM 10, and 3 ER ML.

Here is my 14 game screenshot dump (accidentally included one from last night with a different build and another is a duplicate)

TL;DR damage scores
988
900
736
353
808
763
835
253
579
916
561
740
404
898

Average damage: 695.3
Median damage: 751.5

8 out of 14 games I was the rank 1 score out of 24 players. My median ranking was #1.

So clearly you can consistently succeed with a non LRM-quirked mech.

Jman your the rockstar of us Rocketeers.
Haters gonna hate, especially the knuckle draggin brawler types.
They got no style.
Let em.

[GeistHrafn]

Don't use em much myself, but our CO swears by a 6x5ALRM MDD, and consistently scores 800+ dmg matches in it. It's actually disheartening at times lol.

[Water Bear]

Well yea, I play 50 ton lrm boats. The Treb and Hunchie are pretty good. I can return top-of-the-match damage numbers in the Treb, 750ish on a good day. Like any LRM mech ever, they tend not to work so well when there's a lot of ECM and my team lacks BAP, TAG, ECM. Not a whole lot you can do with just your one tag in a game of ECM hill-hump.

[Tombstoner]

I love my founders cat but i have found ECM to be fare to prevalent tot have much fun so i changed over to the stock hell bringer. I must say that as a spotter its the best. I've used. simply because its got some armor

[Neput Z34]

Having recently mastered a WHK-B with "C-Lurms", the hardest part is getting consistent locks and not getting my side torsos shot off in the process.

The glut of GRF-2Ns and CTF-0XPs on top of Hellbringers running around doesn't do you any favors on top of most maps have sufficient cover to hide from the "LRM Rain".

Generally bringing LRMs on anything heavier then 55 tons is not beneficial for your team, because you will have to get your own locks.
With general propensity of circling counter clockwise, most matches turn into NASCAR Mech Circuit or FORZA Mech Sports. Typically this causes the heavier / slower mechs to be left behind as food for "Light Swarm".

Long story short, if you plan on driving an LRM boat:
♦ Do NOT "Tip The Spear"
♦ Do NOT place your self at the end of the "Conga Line"
♦ Do NOT stray to far form the "Death Ball"
♦ Don't bother wasting ammo on anything running @130 kph or faster.
________Unless it's hugging your face and you just want them to go way or end it early your self.
♦ Be mindful of Teammates and Terrain before launching LRMs
♦ IF the enemy team is ECM heavy, practice "The Art of Dumb Fire LRMs"

[Ovion]

Neput Z34, on 03 June 2015 - 03:46 PM, said:

Having recently mastered a WHK-B with "C-Lurms", the hardest part is getting consistent locks and not getting my side torsos shot off in the process.

The glut of GRF-2Ns and CTF-0XPs on top of Hellbringers running around doesn't do you any favors on top of most maps have sufficient cover to hide from the "LRM Rain".

Generally bringing LRMs on anything heavier then 55 tons is not beneficial for your team, because you will have to get your own locks.
With general propensity of circling counter clockwise, most matches turn into NASCAR Mech Circuit or FORZA Mech Sports. Typically this causes the heavier / slower mechs to be left behind as food for "Light Swarm".

Long story short, if you plan on driving an LRM boat:
♦ Do NOT "Tip The Spear"
♦ Do NOT place your self at the end of the "Conga Line"
♦ Do NOT stray to far form the "Death Ball"
♦ Don't bother wasting ammo on anything running @130 kph or faster.
________Unless it's hugging your face and you just want them to go way or end it early your self.
♦ Be mindful of Teammates and Terrain before launching LRMs
♦ IF the enemy team is ECM heavy, practice "The Art of Dumb Fire LRMs"

Several good points.

I'll add though:
- LRM5's can and will track Lights acceptably, at the very least enough to make them wet themselves and run.
- 'Wasting Ammo' can be beneficial - don't underestimate the benefits of Crowd Control
- In certain situations, going away from the team (better in Light / Fast LRM boats this), going around behind the enemy, sitting at 800-900M the opposite direction to where they're engaging your team, then starting to lob missiles is VERY effective, as you're at the opposite side to the cover they're using, meaning they either: A - Get flayed from behind. B - Move out to engage your team. C - Move to rear cover, likely exposing themselves to your team. D - Come after you, showing their back to your team / reduce the offensive output of the enemy in the 'main engagement'. (See 'don't underestimate Crowd Control')

- C-LRMs are poor-mans SSRMs. Use them as such. (If clan) Don't be too scared to move to 200M or less, and participate in the brawl especially with heavy ECM coverage.

[stillnight]

Alistair Winter, on 29 May 2015 - 12:44 PM, said:

Yeah, sorry, I'm starting another LRM thread. I know there's one on the front page already, but it's specifically about hostility towards the "gief target locks plz" players, and that's a separate discussion.

This thread is about you.

I want to know if you have played an LRM boat lately. Not just a match here and there. Have you tried playing 10 or 20 or 30 matches with an LRM boat in the last month or so? If so, what was your experience? I'm eager to hear from people who actually tried playing with an LRM boat in pub matches during the last month or so.

• If you haven't played an LRM boat lately, I'm not really that interested. If you have all sorts of arguments about why LRMs are bad, that's cool, but I know what you're going to say.
  
• If you have played an LRM boat lately and done well, I want to hear from you.
  
• If you have played an LRM boat lately and been smashed and humiliated, I want to hear from you.

I'm asking, of course, because I have tried an LRM boat lately. On a quest to buy the last missing mechs in my collection, I went back to my AWS-8R to farm C-bills. And let me tell you, this mech basically prints money. Forget hero mechs for farming C-bills. TAG + LRMs = mucho dineros.


But more than making money, I was struck by just how devastating my AWS-8R has been in puglandia. Maybe my Elo has been dragged through the mud when I was levelling my Highlanders, but I don't think I've fallen all the way to the steering wheel underhive, because I do keep seeing a lot of you guys in my matches. Names I recognize.

And I'm not just spreading damage and wasting an assault slot, before you ask. I'm consistently getting more kills and doing more damage than other assault mechs, while my win lose ratio is steadily improving. I don't think I'm getting paid at the expense of my teammates, I think my LRM boat is a pretty significant positive factor for our team.

I do consider it likely that LRM boats are bad against the best players in the game. Or at least, very difficult to use. But the best players in the game are a very small minority, in this regard. I do think most teams in the pug queue struggle real hard against good LRM boats. Maybe if I keep playing, I will eventually meet better teams who have no problems against my LRMs. But so far... well, I'll spare you the screenshots, but I'm rippin and tearin'.

TL;DR - If you have tried playing with an LRM boat lately, I want to hear from you. Did you perform poorly, average or above average?

I need to get an AWS-8R now lol

[Ashvins]

LRM boats have always had it EASY in this game. Before you pipe up with all the comments to say I'm wrong, think of this.

Every mech in MWO is given the equivalent of a free C3I computer to share target data. Something that in table top required 2.5 ton's and 2 crits. Now take that out of EVERY MECH and see what LRM's were meant to be.

C3 computers were originally fielded in 3050 (game start year) by the Draconis Combine ONLY. Several years later the technology was shared to fight the clans, but it wasn't until 3062 (10 years still from game date) that the C3i was introduced by comstar. The C3i only allowed 6 mechs to be linked. Not the 12 + turrets we currently enjoy.

The C3's all cost weight and crits, which i dare say many would not put these In because of this.


That being said, gone would be the day's when 2 lights fighting each other would have their fight interrupted by 10,000 LRM's from the sky. Gone would be the days of 2 LRM boats laying waste to an entire team. You all ***** about ECM ruining your gameplay experience, well guess what ECM just negates a HUGE freebie that never should have been there in the first place.

No one complains about the free equipment they get making their mech better, just about the stuff that brings them closer to what they should have been in the first place.

Eliminate the free C3 and I'll quit knocking on LRM boats, until then just shut up I don't want to hear it.

[Hades Trooper]

Alistair Winter, on 29 May 2015 - 01:03 PM, said:

I have a 2xLRM5 Locust.

This thread is primarily about heavy and assault mechs with all or almost all weapons being LRMs. Not a Timber Wolf with 2xLRM15, for example. Summoners, Mad Dogs, Stalkers, even the dreaded, infamous LRM King Crab. Or worse yet, the LRM Atlas.

Excuse me but my Summoner Prime with it's large laser tag and 3 lrm 10's is extremely effective thank you. Makes me more c-bills than i can handle in pugland.

[Waffles 2pt0]

Rockin' it HARD in lurm machines of doom. Just had a 1000+ match in one. I love these beasties! All of the hate thrown around suggests I'm doing my job correctly. "Carry harder, carry harder".

PUG matches exclusively. CW ... Wow CW is not the fun for me. PUG matches start much faster.

Edited by S Morgenstern, 08 June 2015 - 10:52 AM.