384 replies to this topic

[Moomtazz]

LRM do not require any skill in aiming. Effective use of all other weapon systems does require some skill in aiming. All weapon systems require skill in positioning to be effective.

There it is in a nutshell.

Gut, on 30 May 2015 - 08:55 AM, said:

I call BS on this.

90% of the player base doesn't know crap about aiming.

Exactly....

[Joseph Mallan]

Tractor Joe, on 30 May 2015 - 08:51 AM, said:

I have and the matches I saw all ended in brawls and the particular way I play lrms I would have done some murder against these guys.


I only left that bit because of space not discounting anything you said or focusing on this part.

For most of your points there is a counter, some pilots have skill with LRMs and adversity is the mother of invention. As the new meta shifted in and my elo rose I adapted and developed my tactics to match. Like how I use AMS against the guy carrying it. I just fire off some shots at nothing so we can pinpoint and move in on the guy with it. Want an argument against ams.
I don't play on a team other than some friends and unit mates dropping in LFG, my schedule prevents it being practical.

I prefer mediums to anything else for lrms, you don't get to just hide from me. Plus I always carry some type of large laser/s as well as lrms.
If my ELO is up after, say, bashing comp points with my Misery(easy mode fun), I just bring my 4xlrm5 1xERLL Griff 2N sporting JJs and ecm, use my 97.2 kph and ecm to counter players who are skilled at dodging.

The fact lrms are not used more in team comp is not evidence they are bad.

This is true. It just does not fit the usual tactics. Most teams find each other and try to over run one another. Its not a bad tactic for the way things work with small forces.

Gut, on 30 May 2015 - 08:55 AM, said:

I call BS on this.

90% of the player base doesn't know crap about aiming.

See I call BS on this. I know how to aim. Now getting the mouse sensitivity doped right takes a bit of tweaking.

And then take old reflexes up against simulated speeds up to 70MpH objects that are an inch and a half tall or less... I'm already past my fighting prime.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 30 May 2015 - 09:01 AM.

[Gut]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 May 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

This is true. It just does not fit the usual tactics. Most teams find each other and try to over run one another. Its not a bad tactic for the way things work with small forces.


See I call BS on this. I know how to aim. Now getting the mouse sensitivity doped right takes a bit of tweaking.

Have you not spectated anyone when you die?

Even considering the lag with spectator mode, people are so poor in their shots it is unbelievable. And this is at what is supposed to be high elo, I can't imagine what it must be like at low.

[Moomtazz]

YueFei, on 29 May 2015 - 05:08 PM, said:

People focus too much on the mechanical dexterity required to aim direct-fire versus aiming LRMs.

A highly-skilled Chess player doesn't need great hand-eye coordination. But his skill is still acknowledged, just a different kind of skill.

Besides, I've seen some of Jman5's vids on the use of LRMs, his technique is quite interesting to watch. He trades salvos against direct-fire mechs and wins those by ducking in/out exposing only the head and RT briefly to refresh TAG/lock-on, taking advantage of the HBK's acceleration and braking. He's exposed for a split second each time, often ducking back down before the enemy can hit him. He uses the HBK's speed to flank around and get shots that bypass the enemy's hard cover. It's totally different from the slow-mo Assault LRM platform's playstyle. It may not require amazing pixel-perfect shooting skill, but the fancy footwork is fun to watch.

I think you are spot on. When I say no-skill LRM noobs I am talking about no-aim. I have dropped many times with JMan when he is in the hunchback and he certainly uses positioning and the speed of the mech well. He also feasts on unaware teams who let him rain down on him for the whole match. In matches where teams don't let him do that, he is much less effective.

[Joseph Mallan]

Gut, on 30 May 2015 - 09:01 AM, said:

Have you not spectated anyone when you die?

Even considering the lag with spectator mode, people are so poor in their shots it is unbelievable. And this is at what is supposed to be high elo, I can't imagine what it must be like at low.

Well not everyone can have the industry leading tech in their computer. I do truly believe the Professional shooters miss quite a bit(NOT Snipers). I know every time I watch a Warhog live fire, they stitch a stream of shells along the ground 200-300 yards long and hit an area of effect all over and around the target vehicle.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 30 May 2015 - 09:05 AM.

[Burktross]

Moomtazz, on 30 May 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

I think you are spot on. When I say no-skill LRM noobs I am talking about no-aim. I have dropped many times with JMan when he is in the hunchback and he certainly uses positioning and the speed of the mech well. He also feasts on unaware teams who let him rain down on him for the whole match. In matches where teams don't let him do that, he is much less effective.

The bane of LRMs is the competence of the enemy, moreso than any other weapon system it seems.

[Moomtazz]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 May 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

This is true. It just does not fit the usual tactics. Most teams find each other and try to over run one another. Its not a bad tactic for the way things work with small forces.


See I call BS on this. I know how to aim. Now getting the mouse sensitivity doped right takes a bit of tweaking.

And then take old reflexes up against simulated speeds up to 70MpH objects that are an inch and a half tall or less... I'm already past my fighting prime.

In other words, you can't aim.

I know how to drive a golfball perfectly but I just can't seem to do it most of the time.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

There is really only one weapon in the game that requires even a modicum of skill; the IS standard PPC.
It has both a comparatively short maximum range and a minim range, and a slow projectile speed. In addition the ghost heat and normal heat, and weight make it a difficult weapon to compensate quality with quantity.

And finally it is almost unheard of in the try-hard league, so you know it has to be a high skill low reward weapon.

[Gut]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 May 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

Well not everyone can have the industry leading tech in their computer. I do truly believe the Professional shooters miss quite a bit(NOT Snipers). I know every time I watch a Warhog live fire, they stitch a stream of shells along the ground 200-300 yards long and hit an area of effect all over and around the target vehicle.

? I spent $1300 on a computer 3 years ago. 3770k, 560ti x2 graphics card.

It runs the game fine, and is nowhere near top of the line.

Besides just aiming in and of itself, I also refer to putting your reticle on a spot where the enemy is about to be, constantly scanning ridge lines, etc etc.

People don't do that stuff. They have no idea. Again, this is normal fps stuff that people don't do at all.

[Joseph Mallan]

Moomtazz, on 30 May 2015 - 09:07 AM, said:

In other words, you can't aim.

I know how to drive a golfball perfectly but I just can't seem to do it most of the time.

Well I can put 7 out of 10 bullets in the head of a man sized silhouette at 500 meters using iron sights. And dropped 19 out of 20 bullets in a 4"x 6" target with an HK40 at 25-30 yards after firing 40 rounds with it to get familiar.

I think I can shoot.

Gut, on 30 May 2015 - 09:09 AM, said:

? I spent $1300 on a computer 3 years ago. 3770k, 560ti x2 graphics card.

It runs the game fine, and is nowhere near top of the line.

Besides just aiming in and of itself, I also refer to putting your reticle on a spot where the enemy is about to be, constantly scanning ridge lines, etc etc.

People don't do that stuff. They have no idea. Again, this is normal fps stuff that people don't do at all.

Yeah windage stumps some folks

[Aresye]

Satan n stuff, on 30 May 2015 - 01:33 AM, said:

^Completely missed the point.

What point? It's hard to miss the point when there isn't one. Oh, it's a thread saying that locking onto a red box and clicking the button is the same "lack of skill" as taking lasers and lightsabering the enemy. Is that the point? A completely obvious statement that all players should already know?

The general consensus of the thread seems to be: If you use laser vomit to swipe lasers over your enemy, it isn't any better than somebody locking on with a LRM boat. We have a name for players that do that. It's called: BAD. No s*** it doesn't take skill, so beyond that, what's the point? Are there groups of people who are arguing that?

[Joseph Mallan]

Aresye Kerensky, on 30 May 2015 - 12:37 AM, said:

Skill exists.

It's why players like TwinkieOverlord, Heimdelight, and JagerXII manage to outperform everybody else.

Players like them were the top when dual gauss K2s were the meta, they were the top when PPCs/AC5s were the meta, and they are STILL at the top now that lasers are the meta.

If all these metas are always "no-skill," and, "easy to do," then why are the same players always at the top? Why do they always win matches? Why do they always do absurd damage and kills?

After the most recent nerf patch, guess who the top players are now? SAME ONES!

People need to seriously stop complaining. These players are just flat out better than you, and even if you devolved the game all the way down to nothing but flamers, they would STILL kick your butts. All you end up doing is making the game more frustrating for everybody else.

Cause some of them cheat!

Not all mind you, but...

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 May 2015 - 08:11 AM, said:

So as of the latest ruleset's fluff. It is a baiilistic launch angle that gives LRMs their minimum range.

It would help me out when my missiles are supposed to go OVER a hill and not straight into it. When the target is 200m beyond the hill!

As I said... thats new because I havent read anything from the new stuff. So theres no hot loading in this set then?

[Wintersdark]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 May 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

This is true. It just does not fit the usual tactics. Most teams find each other and try to over run one another. Its not a bad tactic for the way things work with small forces.


See I call BS on this. I know how to aim. Now getting the mouse sensitivity doped right takes a bit of tweaking.

And then take old reflexes up against simulated speeds up to 70MpH objects that are an inch and a half tall or less... I'm already past my fighting prime.

Sadly, this gets me too these days. I can drop Autocannon/Gauss rounds exactly where I want them, but I tend to suffer a bit with extended beam durations while dancing around people; hard to hold them exactly where I want them while turning, twisting and such... I'm just not as good at that as I used to be, anymore. There's a reason I don't play FPS shooters anymore

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Moomtazz, on 30 May 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

LRM do not require any skill in aiming.

Right, they require skill and teamwork in hitting. Not aiming

[Gut]

I think the entire argument lies in whether something can be used more skillfully or not. Of course it can. I can kick a ball, but can I kick it a football field's length? No.

But, kicking a golf ball is harder than kicking a soccer ball.

That's the difference.

LRMs are like kicking a beach ball.

[Wintersdark]

Grisbane, on 30 May 2015 - 09:19 AM, said:

if lrm's were direct fire, a .5 second lock (no artemis/bap) would be fine. you could also decrease the flight time and even slightly increase the time before lock drop without making the weapon OP. it's not the ceiling that needs raised here.. it's the 50 foot hole in the floor they dug to establish a skill base for them. Literally any idiot can use them to at least moderate effect. It's the window-licker-magnet part of them that needs removed.

Only against bad players. If some window-licking bad kills you with LRM's, it's solely and completely because you played badly. Pure and simple, that's all there is to it.

LRM's are extremely easy to use and at least moderately effective at low to mid elo's but after that? They require substantial skill to use with any effectiveness.

If you feel LRM's are "skillless noob weapons" that "even window lickers can use effectively" that's simply an indicator of the skill level you're playing at.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Gut, on 30 May 2015 - 09:20 AM, said:

I think the entire argument lies in whether something can be used more skillfully or not. Of course it can. I can kick a ball, but can I kick it a football field's length? No.

But, kicking a golf ball is harder than kicking a soccer ball.

That's the difference.

LRMs are like kicking a beach ball.

This is the only game that I know of that using the most nerfed thing is the game is considered no skill or noob.

[Gut]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 30 May 2015 - 09:22 AM, said:

This is the only game that I know of that using the most nerfed thing is the game is considered no skill or noob.

It's nerfed because of low elo, dude.

[Joseph Mallan]

Gut, on 30 May 2015 - 09:20 AM, said:

I think the entire argument lies in whether something can be used more skillfully or not. Of course it can. I can kick a ball, but can I kick it a football field's length? No.

But, kicking a golf ball is harder than kicking a soccer ball.

That's the difference.

LRMs are like kicking a beach ball.

Wonder how accurately Beckham can kick a beach ball?