16 replies to this topic

[Zirack]

How much damage would a 3x critical hit do in this scenario?

1) A Firestarter with 24 armor in its Right Side Torso
2) It is hit with 2 Gauss Rifles for 30 damage.
3) All 24 armor is lost, and 6 damage is done to the Internal Structure.
4) The Gauss shots are lucky and get 3 critical hits.
5) 6 * 3 = 18 damage to the Internal Structure.
6) Firestarters only have 16 HP on the Torso Internal Structure.
7) The Firestarter dies instantly.

Is that honestly what would happen, or have I misunderstood how critical hits work? I have been reading the MWO Gamepedia article on critical hits, and it seems to say that there is a 3% chance for a weapon to get "3 critical hits". It also says that most weapons will deal 2x damage on a critical hit... which leads me to assume that getting 3 critical hits can actually multiply your damage by 4? For example:

Initial 15 damage
Crit #1 = 15 extra damage
Crit #2 = 15 extra damage
Crit #3 = 15 extra damage

Total = 15 * 4 = 60 damage

[Wintersdark]

Zirack, on 01 June 2015 - 12:57 AM, said:

How much damage would a 3x critical hit do in this scenario?

1) A Firestarter with 24 armor in its Right Side Torso
2) It is hit with 2 Gauss Rifles for 30 damage.
3) All 24 armor is lost, and 6 damage is done to the Internal Structure.
4) The Gauss shots are lucky and get 3 critical hits.
5) 6 * 3 = 18 damage to the Internal Structure.
6) Firestarters only have 16 HP on the Torso Internal Structure.
7) The Firestarter dies instantly.

Is that honestly what would happen, or have I misunderstood how critical hits work? I have been reading the MWO Gamepedia article on critical hits, and it seems to say that there is a 3% chance for a weapon to get "3 critical hits". It also says that most weapons will deal 2x damage on a critical hit... which leads me to assume that getting 3 critical hits can actually multiply your damage by 4? For example:

Initial 15 damage
Crit #1 = 15 extra damage
Crit #2 = 15 extra damage
Crit #3 = 15 extra damage

Total = 15 * 4 = 60 damage

No, that's not right at all.

See here:

http://mwomercs.com/...-a-brief-guide/

[Wintersdark]

Critical hits do damage to weapons and equipment, but not directly to internal structure.

Well, of the crit damage done, 15% also hits internal structure, but in short:

IF you hit internal structure, the crit roll is to see if you do damage to items in that section. The crit doesn't make your hit do more damage - it's not like a critical hit in the normal sense.

[Wintersdark]

Zirack, on 01 June 2015 - 12:57 AM, said:

How much damage would a 3x critical hit do in this scenario?

1) A Firestarter with 24 armor in its Right Side Torso
2) It is hit with 2 Gauss Rifles for 30 damage.
3) All 24 armor is lost, and 6 damage is done to the Internal Structure.
4) The Gauss shots are lucky and get 3 critical hits.
5) 6 * 3 = 18 damage to the Internal Structure.
6) Firestarters only have 16 HP on the Torso Internal Structure.
7) The Firestarter dies instantly.

To answer your question:

At step 3, 15 damage from one gauss rifle has hit armor. The second Gauss hit does 6 damage to internal structure.

Because it hit structure, there's a crit roll, and you're lucky and get 3 crits. Those are 3 15 damage crits.

Each crit does 15 damage to a randomly determined component in that section. Most components have 10 health (gauss rifles and ECM units less, AC20's more, everything else is 10).

So, that's 3 items in the target location destroyed, EXCEPT in the case of actuators and such, the various "grey" locked components in the mechlab. They all can take crits, but cannot be destroyed.

Regardless, you do 45 damage in crits to various components, so 15% of that is 6.75 extra damage to internal structure there.

The firestarter probably survives this.

[Koniving]

In stated scenario, assuming BOTH weapons get a triple crit.

Zirack, on 01 June 2015 - 12:57 AM, said:

How much damage would a 3x critical hit do in this scenario?

1) A Firestarter with 24 armor in its Right Side Torso
2) It is hit with 2 Gauss Rifles for 30 damage.
3) All 24 armor is lost, and 6 damage is done to the Internal Structure.
4) The Gauss shots are lucky and get 3 critical hits.
5) 6 * 3 = 18 damage to the Internal Structure.
6) Firestarters only have 16 HP on the Torso Internal Structure.
7) The Firestarter dies instantly.


Initial 15 damage
Crit #1 = 15 extra damage
Crit #2 = 15 extra damage
Crit #3 = 15 extra damage

Total = 15 * 4 = 60 damage

From step 4.
Triple crit.
5) 15*3 = 45. 15% of 45 = 6.75 additional damage to structure (per Gauss Rifle, 13.5 bonus damage to structure total).
Step 6) 30+13.5 damage = 43.5 damage total to impact area. Armor absorbs 24 damage. 43.5 - 24 = 19.5 damage to structure. Structure only has 16 units. 19.5 damage -16 structure = 3.5 damage transfers to Center Torso and side torso is destroyed.
Step 7) The firestarter loses said side torso. If it has an XL engine it dies instantly. If it has a standard engine it laughs at you and keeps going.

Except, said scenario will never occur due to two conditions:
Condition 1: A triple crit is very rare. To have two simultaneously? You're more likely to bring Leonard Nimoy back from the dead.
Condition 2: Someone who actually only has 24 armor on the front side torso. This is extremely rare, due to the design of Firestarter hitboxes it is far more common to have this armor layout. In which case you'd need to instantly deliver a total of 46 damage to destroy the side torso in a single hit.

Edited by Koniving, 01 June 2015 - 07:54 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Koniving, on 01 June 2015 - 07:50 AM, said:

In stated scenario, assuming BOTH weapons get a triple crit.


From step 4.
Triple crit.
5) 15*3 = 45. 15% of 45 = 6.75 additional damage to structure (per Gauss Rifle, 13.5 bonus damage to structure total).
Step 6) 30+13.5 damage = 43.5 damage total to impact area. Armor absorbs 24 damage. 43.5 - 24 = 19.5 damage to structure. Structure only has 16 units. 19.5 damage -16 structure = 3.5 damage transfers to Center Torso and side torso is destroyed.
Step 7) The firestarter loses said side torso. If it has an XL engine it dies instantly. If it has a standard engine it laughs at you and keeps going.

Except, said scenario will never occur due to two conditions:
Condition 1: A triple crit is very rare. To have two simultaneously? You're more likely to bring Leonard Nimoy back from the dead.
Condition 2: Someone who actually only has 24 armor on the front side torso. This is extremely rare, due to the design of Firestarter hitboxes it is far more common to have this armor layout. In which case you'd need to instantly deliver a total of 46 damage to destroy the side torso in a single hit.

He can't get two triple crits with a dual gauss hit. One gauss hit will take off 15 armor, leaving him with 9, the second gauss can actually crit.

[Koniving]

Wintersdark, on 01 June 2015 - 12:13 PM, said:

He can't get two triple crits with a dual gauss hit. One gauss hit will take off 15 armor, leaving him with 9, the second gauss can actually crit.

Good point. So there's the third condition.

[Zirack]

Wintersdark, on 01 June 2015 - 02:01 AM, said:

To answer your question:

At Step 3, 15 damage from one gauss rifle has hit armor. The second Gauss hit does 6 damage to internal structure.

*snip*

Regardless, you do 45 damage in crits to various components, so 15% of that is 6.75 extra damage to internal structure there.

So the 24 armor was blown off with 6 leftover damage. The second Gauss gets 3 crits - 15 damage each = 45 damage.

15% of 45 = 6.75 crit damage + the initial 6 leftover damage = 12.75 total damage

Assuming the Firestarter has nothing - no components (heat sinks / equipment / weapons) - in that torso, it will have lost all armor + 12.75 HP off the Internal Structure. A Firestarter Torso has 16 HP. I'm assuming the game doesn't round, so that means 16 - 12.75 = 3.25 HP is left. The Firestarter survives, but barely. A tap on the shoulder from practically anything should blow it over.

Koniving said:

Except, said scenario will never occur due to two conditions:
Condition 1: A triple crit is very rare. To have two simultaneously? You're more likely to bring Leonard Nimoy back from the dead.
Condition 2: Someone who actually only has 24 armor on the front side torso. This is extremely rare, due to the design of Firestarter hitboxes it is far more common to have this armor layout. In which case you'd need to instantly deliver a total of 46 damage to destroy the side torso in a single hit.

Hello again Koniving (you've answered questions of mine before - thanks).

The reason I brought this whole scenario up is because I thought I actually was double-Gauss crit during a match with my Firestarter. I was full health & armor 1 second, and instantly dead the next. The death screen showed Gauss rounds + some random other stuff I was hit with during that strike. There was only 1 guy in my view at the time (A Direwolf with twin Gauss Rifles). While I am relatively new to the game, I do have my Firestarters Elited, and I've never died even remotely that fast.

Regarding your post: I know I'm being a stickler, but I would say Condition 1 is unlikely, but certainly not impossible. From what I understand, there is a 3% chance for triple crit. According to Wintersdark, only 1 of the Gauss Rifles could have crit me anyway, and 3% is certainly not impossible. However, even the odds of 2 triple crits should be 0.0009 or 1 in ~1,111. I certainly hope those are better odds than Spock ressurecting. Definitely unlikely, but not impossible.

Regarding Condition #2: I do use 24 armor on the Front Side Torso's, mainly because I was following the Tier List guides found on the MetaMechs website. Perhaps I should allocate a few extra points to the front, but I dunno if I would feel very safe with only 2 armor on my Rear Torso.

---

I suppose I was just surprised and dismayed that my 100% health Firestarter could be 1-shot-killed in the Front Side Torso. I could understand if he got a head shot, but the death stats said I took absolutely 0 damage to the head.

I've been dual AC-20'd in the back before and died instantly as a result... but I thought MechWarrior would not allow that to occur from the front. It was just a bit disappointed... I specifically wanted to play this game to get away from all the sniper rifle insta-kills of other FPS arcade-style games like CoD. Granted, it happens a lot less in this game... but I kinda hoped behind-the-scenes math prevented it from even being a possibility.

Anyway - thanks Wintersdark and Koniving for clearing this up. I guess I just need to keep saving and buy a Timberwolf.

Edited by Zirack, 01 June 2015 - 08:02 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Zirack, on 01 June 2015 - 07:56 PM, said:

The reason I brought this whole scenario up is because I thought I actually was double-Gauss crit during a match with my Firestarter. I was full health & armor 1 second, and instantly dead the next. The death screen showed Gauss rounds + some random other stuff I was hit with during that strike. There was only 1 guy in my view at the time (A Direwolf with twin Gauss Rifles). While I am relatively new to the game, I do have my Firestarters Elited, and I've never died even remotely that fast.

That was probably my DWF. 2 Gauss, 2ERLLs, and 6 ERMLs. It's a 94 point alpha.

[Wintersdark]

IraqiWalker, on 01 June 2015 - 08:17 PM, said:

That was probably my DWF. 2 Gauss, 2ERLLs, and 6 ERMLs. It's a 94 point alpha.

or one of mine... 2 gauss, 4 erml, uac20, srm12(110+ alpha) or 2 gauss, 2 lbx5, 4 erml.... I one shot lights all the time.

Mostly, because unlike most, I have absolutely zero hit registration issues. They try to run around my dwf's, and get plugged over and over with the dual gauss. Its kinda funny.

[TheCaptainJZ]

If by chance the equipment in that torso had been an ammo bin, it could easily have been destroyed resulting in almost certain death if it exploded.

[JC Daxion]

I wasn't in a firestarter, But a commando the other day, and i ran into a dual Gauss Jag point blank to my CT cored me from fresh. (i don't store ammo in my CT). Was bout 1-2 mins into the match, and i took a wrong turn. Whoops!

commando's do have less armor so there is that. But still does the math hold up on that, or was it just a fluke? I keep hearing that you can't one shot a mech outside of a head.. but here we are, and the only thing that showed up on the damage was a Gauss.

Edited by JC Daxion, 01 June 2015 - 11:47 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

JC Daxion, on 01 June 2015 - 11:46 PM, said:

I wasn't in a firestarter, But a commando the other day, and i ran into a dual Gauss Jag point blank to my CT cored me from fresh. (i don't store ammo in my CT). Was bout 1-2 mins into the match, and i took a wrong turn. Whoops!

commando's do have less armor so there is that. But still does the math hold up on that, or was it just a fluke? I keep hearing that you can't one shot a mech outside of a head.. but here we are, and the only thing that showed up on the damage was a Gauss.

How much front armor did you have? (Internal health is 16). This means that unless you had 15 front armor, you are guaranteed to die from fresh to a dual gauss hit. Without any crits. If even one of them crits, you need at least 20 armor on your CT. If it was to your ST, there is pretty much nothing you can do to prevent death from a dual gauss shot.

[Koniving]

Zirack, on 01 June 2015 - 07:56 PM, said:

I suppose I was just surprised and dismayed that my 100% health Firestarter could be 1-shot-killed in the Front Side Torso. I could understand if he got a head shot, but the death stats said I took absolutely 0 damage to the head.

I've been dual AC-20'd in the back before and died instantly as a result... but I thought MechWarrior would not allow that to occur from the front. It was just a bit disappointed... I specifically wanted to play this game to get away from all the sniper rifle insta-kills of other FPS arcade-style games like CoD. Granted, it happens a lot less in this game... but I kinda hoped behind-the-scenes math prevented it from even being a possibility.

Anyway - thanks Wintersdark and Koniving for clearing this up. I guess I just need to keep saving and buy a Timberwolf.

Without an XL engine or crits in the side torso, none of the bonus damage could be possible and thus, you'd be alive. Far as running that armor config, you'll find it quite surprising. I use it on my 97-ish to 108-ish kph Firestarter designs which use standard engines and almost always lose my torsos from the front first.





Scores. No Quirks Firestarter. 4 MGs, 1 MPL, 2 SL. 97 kph.

Spoiler

XL engine (108) kph Firestarter, pre-quirks. 4 SL, 1 LBX, 1 MG.

Spoiler

In the images with my damage status you can see my rear armor hardly ever goes below brown (losing a single point out of two points). It's all in keeping your back away from the enemy.

------------

All this said, even this Spider 'insta-kill' wasn't quite that instant. It took me four Gauss and then some to achieve it.

Case in point at the start of this video. Which suggests that the update to damage was delayed.
In total there was 5 Gauss Rounds and 2 PPCs thrown at this target.

Edited by Koniving, 02 June 2015 - 03:20 AM.

[Mawai]

I don't know of any Dire Wolf build that would realistically just have 2 gauss rifles .. the only other thing to use the tonnage and space for is heat sinks and gauss rifles don't need them (though I suppose someone could throw in a very large targeting computer). So if you were facing a Dire Wolf with dual gauss then they most likely had some other weapons that would have been sufficient to kill the Firestarter in one shot ...

I've been one shotted by clan mechs in my Firestarters and Jenners. It is not uncommon ... however, the aim of many players is often not up to dealing with fast lights that keep moving and move unpredictably. Being killed is then as much a matter of luck as anything else.

Some things to keep in mind ...

- always keep up traversal against your target ... at close range your light mech moves faster than they can twist unless they start reversing ... and even then lights are still mostly faster than assaults can track
- this means that they will often wait for you to come around again ... so regular and predictable circle strafing is also a bad idea.
- many people will fire when the targeting reticle is just on or close to the light mech ... they will usually miss then since the rounds have travel time and will often just miss behind the target ... lasers can hit but usually the mech can't keep up and hold them on target.

[Wintersdark]

Mawai, on 02 June 2015 - 04:44 AM, said:

I don't know of any Dire Wolf build that would realistically just have 2 gauss rifles .. the only other thing to use the tonnage and space for is heat sinks and gauss rifles don't need them (though I suppose someone could throw in a very large targeting computer). So if you were facing a Dire Wolf with dual gauss then they most likely had some other weapons that would have been sufficient to kill the Firestarter in one shot ...

I've been one shotted by clan mechs in my Firestarters and Jenners. It is not uncommon ... however, the aim of many players is often not up to dealing with fast lights that keep moving and move unpredictably. Being killed is then as much a matter of luck as anything else.

Some things to keep in mind ...

- always keep up traversal against your target ... at close range your light mech moves faster than they can twist unless they start reversing ... and even then lights are still mostly faster than assaults can track
- this means that they will often wait for you to come around again ... so regular and predictable circle strafing is also a bad idea.
- many people will fire when the targeting reticle is just on or close to the light mech ... they will usually miss then since the rounds have travel time and will often just miss behind the target ... lasers can hit but usually the mech can't keep up and hold them on target.

Don't rely on the above vs. mechs like Direwolves that have good builds (read: dual gauss+lasers+more, not the awesomely fun but garbage dakkawhale) SOME people have trouble tracking lights, but a DWF with a Prime side torso (+10% turn rate) can track you well enough to land hits without any difficulty. I have an extremely high KDR in my DWF's, and it's entirely due to silly lights trying to run around me. Not because I'm a great shot, but rather because the light is close, pretty large, and guass rounds travel very fast. It's pretty much hard to miss at that range.

[Wintersdark]

Keep in mind as well, sometimes it's not readily apparent but you could be cored from the rear, by someone off to one side and *slightly* behind (or not even behind, depending on how you're twisted. A dual gauss hit to the rear armor of any light is really bad news for the light.

And, little known fact:

Lets say you have 14.9 armor remaining on a facing. You take a pair of Gauss slugs there. 0.1 and 15 damage hits structure. Because you hit structure, there's a crit roll, and you could get 0-6 crits. 0-6 15 damage crits. So, theoretically, if you got six crits you could destroy the 14.9 points of armor and do 28.6 damage to internal structure as well.

Crits always use the base, unmodified damage of the weapon, no matter how much damage it did in the hit.

So, likewise, a PPC blast at 1079m that hits an unarmored section will do roughly 0.05 damage... But can still do up to 3 10 damage crits.