41 replies to this topic

[Savage Wolf]

I've said it before, having a game with both infinite ammo weapons and ammo based weapons makes sure that it is impossible to balance the two. There is a reason no one makes game design with the two mixed anymore, it's just simply bad game design.
But battletech had it, so all the lore purists will riot in the streets if PGI actually brought balance to the game.

[Satan n stuff]

Savage Wolf, on 30 May 2015 - 01:08 AM, said:

I've said it before, having a game with both infinite ammo weapons and ammo based weapons makes sure that it is impossible to balance the two. There is a reason no one makes game design with the two mixed anymore, it's just simply bad game design.
But battletech had it, so all the lore purists will riot in the streets if PGI actually brought balance to the game.

Mass Effect 3 has both infinite ammo weapons and ammo based weapons and they're fairly well balanced.

[Savage Wolf]

Satan n stuff, on 30 May 2015 - 01:16 AM, said:

Mass Effect 3 has both infinite ammo weapons and ammo based weapons and they're fairly well balanced.

First of all, Mass Effect 3 was primarily single player, the multiplayer part was just thrown in with a shovel. And secondly, what infinite ammo weapons? I never found any.

[Satan n stuff]

Savage Wolf, on 30 May 2015 - 01:22 AM, said:

First of all, Mass Effect 3 was primarily single player, the multiplayer part was just thrown in with a shovel. And secondly, what infinite ammo weapons? I never found any.

Particle rifle, Collector sniper rifle, M-7 Lancer.

[Savage Wolf]

Satan n stuff, on 30 May 2015 - 01:27 AM, said:

Particle rifle, Collector sniper rifle, M-7 Lancer.

Huh, must have missed those. But again, it was primarily a single player game, balance was not that big a factor.

And at least in Mass Effect 3 there was a way to get more ammo, unlike MWO, making the difference smaller.

[Satan n stuff]

Savage Wolf, on 30 May 2015 - 01:36 AM, said:

Huh, must have missed those. But again, it was primarily a single player game, balance was not that big a factor.

And at least in Mass Effect 3 there was a way to get more ammo, unlike MWO, making the difference smaller.

When you're on platinum difficulty being pinned down by a dozen or so Collectors and you've got three Praetorians incoming from different directions that ammo might as well be on another planet because you're not going to get anywhere near it before you blast yourself a way out.
Anyway those guns are part of the singleplayer DLC packs and free multiplayer DLC packs, if you've only played vanilla you haven't seen them.

[Savage Wolf]

Satan n stuff, on 30 May 2015 - 01:43 AM, said:

When you're on platinum difficulty being pinned down by a dozen or so Collectors and you've got three Praetorians incoming from different directions that ammo might as well be on another planet because you're not going to get anywhere near it before you blast yourself a way out.

Well the problem with balancing ammo based versus not infinite ammo is that because you run the risk of running out, the ammo based needs to be better, but if you do run out before the end of the battle, the infinite ammo ones are better. They can never be balanced.
The closest you get is if you know exactly how much damage the player needs to deal to win each encounter and that is not possible in multiplayer and especially not in CW.
But it doesn't really matter since the purists will want this no matter what simply because BattleTech had it.

Satan n stuff, on 30 May 2015 - 01:43 AM, said:

Anyway those guns are part of the singleplayer DLC packs and free multiplayer DLC packs, if you've only played vanilla you haven't seen them.

Well, I never played the multiplayer part of ME3, but I did have some single player DLC, but then again, I didn't try all the weapons.

[Torric]

Moldur, on 29 May 2015 - 09:42 PM, said:

Really? Maybe ballistic mechs here and there aren't a big deal, but 4 drops of 12 Dragon-1Ns will wreck your ****. period. I'm surprised I don't see it more because it feels like absolute baby-mangling when I'm on the wrong end of it.

I can only speak for myself, but i guess i am not alone in staying the hell away from overquirked mechs like the 1n is or the STk 4n used to be. To me the concept of such extreme quirks still feels elementarily wrong.

Anyway, i still would like to see a way of being able to restock your ammo at least during CW matches, where your mech does not need to last 7,5 minutes like someone said, but potentially 30 minutes.

[LordNothing]

i almost never run ballistics without matching their firepower with lasers. crab has four uac5s with a 20 damage alpha and 7 tons ammo, so i put on 2 lpls for 22 damage for a total of 42. ac5 bansh same deal, 15 damage in ballistic with 8t ammo 27 damage in lasers (3 mpl and an erll). the they certainly dont need ammo to carry on, its suboptimal but far from useless. dont boat, boating bad.

something i wouldnt bring is my 3x ac10 ctf-im with 5.5t ammo and only a small laser as backup. its a great mech for scoring in puglandia, i bring it out during some events (not this one, it was too easy and i just took stuff i was lvling). in cw it suffers from short range, and limited ammo. 27 30-point salvos and its spent.

Edited by LordNothing, 30 May 2015 - 03:10 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

LordNothing, on 29 May 2015 - 08:04 PM, said:

so the word is that ammo consuming weapons are uncompetitive because they dont have infinite ammo like laser vomit and have fixed damage ceilings depending on how much tonnage you dedicate to ammo. i for one like to bring autocannons and think that the this way of thinking is wrong. vary rarely do i run out of ammo in cw, death usually comes first.

in puglandia you have one mech that needs to last 15 minutes but in cw a mech need only last 7.5 minutes. even then i opt to bring more than the usual amount of ammo and use light weapons like medium lasers as backup. im not really worried about running out of ammo, so long as you have enough to score multiple kills which will allow you to stay ahead and make the mech pay for itself. accuracy is important, as is the ability to lead a target. face time is more but screen shake kind of balances that out.

when the ammo is done you can do many things, suicide scout, block, tank, or if you are ahead, eject for a new mech. some ballistic builds have enough laser firepower to keep in the game even without the ammo. at least to turn on override and land as many laser alphas as you can before your core cooks.

one huge advantage is the ability to sustain fire where laser boats are overheating. you can manage huge killing streaks with heavy ballistics during the latter part of a rush. after considerable heat buildup and damage from large alphas, its a nice time to have a big gun that wont overheat you to much.

But
but
but
Lazorvomit! You can't use lazors cause I don't like being shot by lazors. or ACs or missiles

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 30 May 2015 - 03:11 AM.

[Piney II]

Alek Ituin, on 29 May 2015 - 11:54 PM, said:

They want their lasers so they can pewpew at all the things like a bunch of crack-addled squirrels.

That's signature material.

[Johnny Z]

+1 for gold ammo.











Just kidding. LOL

[Insects]

I think it would be good if you could return to spawn and get an ammo recharge in CW.
Better than having to kill yourself.

[Grommen]

Guess I'm breaking this rule then.

Just got an IS AC20 for the first time. Plaid on an off for a a few years, just never got around to one. The thing is great. Aim at offending mech part, offending part goes away.

Anyway. I've got 4 tons of AC20 ammo on my Centurion. I do run out on occasion. Normally I run out of mech before that. I've run AC 5's and 10's as well. Same thing, I'm either dead, hiding, or the game is over before the last round leaves the barrel.

regardless I do slightly better with ballistics than the laser vomit. Perhaps I'm more careless with the laser boat thinking I can just keep shooting my way out of things. Or the heat catches up with me. I don't quite know (I swear the match maker knows when I'm in my Jester and keeps dumping me on hot maps over and over and over). They might be better mechs, or I'm getting better.

I also do pretty good, for me, with a mix of weapons. I run a Battlemaster with a PPC, 2 AC5's and a boat load of Medium Lasers. Seems to work out for me.

LRM's have their own separate issues, and I don't run missile boats in PUG games. Does not work for me I guess. I'll run a single LRM15 on a mech, but I use it just like a direct fire weapon and stay out of the Min Range. Same results as the rest of the ballistic weapons. I'm dead before the last missile fires.

To sum things up, I think it depends on your approach to the mechs and weapons. Personally...I suck at this game (K/D .8). I play PUG matches and try not to run around like an idiot 7 year old with a squirt gun in July. Not always successful am I. But when I do run about as a loose cannon, I do so with the knowledge that my ammo will out live me.

[Burktross]

lordtzar, on 29 May 2015 - 09:54 PM, said:

Double the TT values for ammo, then increase the projectile speed on ACs across the board. Projectile weapons will still be harder to use than lasers, and the discount on heat is balanced by the weight of the weapons. Fixed.

me likey but fear imbalance

[Joseph Mallan]

Alek Ituin, on 29 May 2015 - 11:54 PM, said:

Most people don't do this. They want their lasers so they can pewpew at all the things like a bunch of crack-addled squirrels.

I
I
I
I prefer teh termz alteritively medicated!

[Simbacca]

For me, my doctrine is to carry sufficient quantities of ammunition.

Machine Gun = 1 ton ammo per 2 MGs.
AC2 = 2 or 3 tons ammo per gun
AC5 = 2 or 3 tons ammo per gun
Ultra AC5 = 4 tons ammo per gun
AC10 = 4 tons ammo per gun (though my old Jagermech currently only carries 3 tons per gun)
AC20 = 4 tons ammo per gun
Gauss Rifle = 4 tons ammo per gun
LB10X = 4 tons ammo per gun

LRMs = No less than 18 salvos worth.

Edited by Simbacca, 30 May 2015 - 01:29 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Rule of thumb is that I try to go with 3 tons of ammo per AC or Gauss. The more of a given gun you have, however, the less ammo per gun you seem to need. For example, with one Gauss Rifle, I am most comfortable with 30 rounds, but with two having 50 rounds of ammo for any given match. With UAC I want three tons for the first gun, with two I want five or six, but with three 8 is probably enough.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 30 May 2015 - 10:56 AM.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

0.5t per MG
2t per AC2, AC5, or UAC5
2t per arm-mounted AC10 or LB10X (I find that my gun arm usually gets shot off before I can pop 45 round out)
3t per torso-mounted AC10 or LB10X
3t per AC20
3-4t per Gauss

I never run half tons on AC10 or AC20 unless there's really nothing else I could conceivably do with the tonnage. I don't like that I still have to sacrifice the full half ton even though the capacity is rounded down.

For SRMs my rule is minimum 0.5t per two tubes, or 25 shots per tube.

Each AMS gets one full ton.

I don't really use LRMs or Streaks. If I did, I'd probably apply the same 25 shots per tube rule as I use for SRMs.

[LordNothing]

with the exception of the uac5 (which i used a lot on the trial victor when i was getting started) all my ballistic weapons are more than 50% accurate, some as high as 82%.