22 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

i did a write up on Faction(IS & Clan) Laser weapons,
where is what ive come up with looking on a possible balance,
so some seem to be pretty well balanced already, Are they?


First IS-SL vs C-ER-SL,
(1Damage = 0.20Duration)(1Heat = 70m Range)
Table,........Weapon,...Damage,...Duration,...Heat,... Range,...Cooldown,...
Current,... IS-SL.............3,.............0.75,........2,.........135m,........2.25s,...
Current,... C-ER-SL,.......5,.............1.00,........3,.........200m,........2.25s,...
-
Balanced, IS-SL,............3,.............0.60,........2,.........140m,........2.00s,...
Balanced, C-ER-SL,.......4,.............0.80,........3,.........210m,........2.50s,...
Possible,.. IS-ER-SL,......3,.............0.60,........3,.........210m,........2.00s,...
(IS= Duration -0.15 Range +5m Cooldown -0.25)(Clan= Duration -0.20 Range +10m Cooldown +0.25)

Then IS-SPL vs C-SPL,
(1Damage = 0.10Duration)(1Heat = 55m Range)
Table,........Weapon,...Damage,...Duration,...Heat,... Range,...Cooldown,...
Current,... IS-SPL.............4,...........0.50,..........2,.......110m,........2.25s,...
Current,... C-SPL,.............6,...........0.75,..........3,.......165m,.......2.25s,...
-
Balanced, IS-SPL,............4,...........0.40,..........2,.......110m,........2.00s,...
Balanced, C-SPL,.............5,...........0.50,..........3,.......165m,.......2.50s,...
(IS= Duration -0.10 Cooldown -0.25)(Clan= Duration -0.25 Cooldown +0.25)


Next IS-ML vs C-ER-ML,
(1Damage = 0.20Duration)(1Heat = 70m Range)
Table,........Weapon,...Damage,...Duration,...Heat,... Range,...Cooldown,...
Current,... IS-ML.............5,.............0.90,........4,.........270m,........3.00s,...
Current,... C-ER-ML,.......7,.............1.15,........6,.........405m,........3.00s,...
-
Balanced, IS-ML,............5,.............1.00,........4,.........280m,........2.50s,...
Balanced, C-ER-ML,.......6,.............1.20,........6,.........420m,........3.00s,...
Possible,.. IS-ER-ML,......5,.............1.00,........6,.........420m,........2.50s,...
(IS= Duration +0.10 Range +10m Cooldown -0.50)(Clan= Duration +0.05 Range +15m)

Then IS-MPL vs C-MPL,
(1Damage = 0.10Duration)(1Heat = 55m Range)
Table,........Weapon,...Damage,...Duration,...Heat,... Range,...Cooldown,...
Current,... IS-MPL...........6,............0.60,.........4,........220m,........3.00s,...
Current,... C-MPL,...........8,............0.85,.........6,........330m,........3.00s,...
-
Balanced, IS-MPL,..........6,............0.60,.........4,........220m,........2.50s,...
Balanced, C-MPL,...........7,............0.70,.........6,........330m,........3.00s,...
(IS= Cooldown -0.50)(Clan= Duration -0.15)


Finally IS-LL vs C-ER-LL,
(1Damage = 0.15Duration)(1Heat = 75m Range)
Table,........Weapon,...Damage,...Duration,...Heat,... Range,...Cooldown,...
Current,... IS-LL..............9,.............1.00,........7,.........450m,........3.25s,...
Current,... IS-ER-LL,.......9,.............1.25,........8,.........675m,........3.25s,...
Current,... C-ER-LL,......11,.............1.50,.......10,........740m,........3.25s,...
-
Balanced, IS-LL..............9,.............1.35,........7,.........525m,........3.00s,...
Balanced, IS-ER-LL,.......9,.............1.35,........9,.........675m,........3.00s,...
Balanced, C-ER-LL,......10,.............1.50,........9,.........675m,........3.50s,...
(IS(LL)= Duration +0.35 Range +75m Cooldown -0.25)
(IS= Duration +0.10 Heat +1 Cooldown -0.25)(Clan= Heat -1 Range -65m Cooldown +0.25)

Then IS-LPL vs C-LPL,
(1Damage = 0.10Duration)(1Heat = 55m Range)
Table,........Weapon,...Damage,...Duration,...Heat,... Range,...Cooldown,...
Current,... IS-LPL............11,...........0.67,.........7,........365m,........3.25s,...
Current,... C-LPL,...........13,...........1.12,........10,.......600m,........3.25s,...
-
Balanced, IS-LPL.............11,...........1.10,.........7,........385m,........3.00s,...
Balanced, C-LPL,............12,...........1.20,........10,.......550m,........3.50s,...
(IS= Duration +0.43 Range +20m Cooldown -0.25)(Clan= Duration +0.08 Range -50m Cooldown +0.25)


So are Lasers Balanced?
would they feel more Balanced with My Values?

Thoughts, Comments Concerns?
Thanks

Edit- Title Changed,
Edit2- reword and Pulse Added,
Edit3- Full rework with new Stats,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 22 August 2016 - 09:48 PM.

[Tarogato]

Spreadsheets are your best friend. =P

I took a look at weapon balance earlier today and came to some conclusions. One of them being that I.S. medium lasers are too hot (as well as small lasers). Another being that all clan pulses and their ERLL deal too much damage.

When PGI was developing MWO, they brought in the tabletop values for weapons, but they altered some of them. Some of the ones they altered actually made Clan/IS balance worse. Here's the thread I made that outlines some of those alterations:

http://mwomercs.com/...weapon-balance/

Complete list of suggestions from thread:


- Reduce heat on IS small and medium lasers to match TT - helps IS compete against clans at close range
- Reduce heat on cMPL by 1 to be closer to TT because it's not being used very much currently
- Reduce damage on all Clan pulses by 1, closer to TT and helps IS compete with Clans
- Reduce damage on cERLL by 1, closer to TT and helps IS compete with Clans
- Increase pinpoint damage factor on cERPPC, closer to TT and might incentivise people to use it over cERLL and gauss.
- Reduce cooldown on IS PPC and ERPPC, because compared to TT, cERPPC in MWO has way too much dps.
- Reduce heat on AC/2 to 0.6, so that it deals 3.33 dmg/heat just like the AC/10 and AC/20.
- Buff the dps on MG and Flamer - they're supposed to be a lot stronger in TT.

[Khobai]

IS medium lasers are fine. We tried them at 3 heat and it was unbalanced on light mechs. 4 heat is where they need to stay.

The problem is the clan lasers. Damage and range on clan lasers is much higher than it should be. At most the clan lasers should do like 1 more damage than the IS lasers and have maybe 25%-33% more range... not 50%+ more range.

The vast majority of weapon balance problems we have now are caused by long energy range weapons and gauss.

Edited by Khobai, 14 September 2015 - 05:41 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Khobai, on 14 September 2015 - 05:37 PM, said:

IS medium lasers are fine. We tried them at 3 heat and it was unbalanced on light mechs. 4 heat is where they need to stay.

The problem is the clan lasers. Damage and range on clan lasers is much higher than it should be. At most the clan lasers should do like 1 more damage than the IS lasers and have maybe 25%-33% more range... not 50%+ more range.

The vast majority of weapon balance problems we have now are caused by long energy range weapons and gauss.

so what are your thoughts on My Topic?

Edit-
@Tarogato,
sorry, but your Balance idea although interesting is another Topic altogether,
this one is just talking about Laser Balance and Balance using the Above Formulas,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 14 September 2015 - 05:51 PM.

[Mordric]

is TT Clan is more advance then IS, so in MWO they should only out DPS/Range a IS mech only slightly, and for lower tier mech they should get Quirks to help off set, Don't for get that CLans get TC to boost Crit damge, this should factor into the Clan Balance. if Clan mech want to out range and DPS IS then more Clanners should install and use the TC. the TC should be the Key to weapon superiority. IS mech don't have a TC, so if CLan used TC you get a buff, no TC then no Buff and all weapons are closer to equal to IS tech..

[Johnny Z]

Andi Nagasia, on 14 September 2015 - 04:58 PM, said:

i did a write up on Faction(IS & Clan) Laser weapons,
where is what ive come up with looking on a possible balance,
so some seem to be pretty well balanced already, Are they?


First IS-SL vs C-ER-SL, so are they are Balanced?
(1Damage = 0.21Duration)(1Heat = 68m Range)
Table,........Weapon,...Damage,...Duration,...Heat,... Range,...
Current,... IS-SL.............3,.............0.75,........2,.........135m,...
Current,... C-ER-SL,.......5,.............1.00,........3,.........200m,...
-
Balanced, IS-SL,............3,.............0.63,........2,.........136m,...
Balanced, C-ER-SL,.......5,.............1.05,........3,.........204m,...
Possible,.. IS-ER-SL,......3,.............0.63,........3,.........204m,...
(IS= Duration -0.12 Range +1m)(Clan= Duration +0.05 Range +4m)


Next IS-ML vs C-ER-ML, which are pretty well Balanced?
(1Damage = 0.17Duration)(1Heat = 68m Range)
Table,........Weapon,...Damage,...Duration,...Heat,... Range,...
Current,... IS-ML.............5,.............0.90,........4,.........270m,...
Current,... C-ER-ML,.......7,.............1.15,........6,.........405m,...
-
Balanced, IS-ML,............5,.............0.85,........4,.........272m,...
Balanced, C-ER-ML,.......7,.............1.19,........6,.........408m,...
Possible,.. IS-ER-ML,......5,.............0.85,........6,.........408m,...
(IS= Duration -0.05 Range +2m)(Clan= Duration +0.04 Range +3m)


Finally IS-LL vs C-ER-LL, lets see if they are Balanced?
(1Damage = 0.12Duration)(1Heat = 80m Range)
Table,........Weapon,...Damage,...Duration,...Heat,... Range,...
Current,... IS-LL..............9,.............1.00,........7,.........450m,...
Current,... IS-ER-LL,.......9,.............1.25,........8,.........675m,...
Current,... C-ER-LL,......11,.............1.50,.......10,........740m,...
-
Balanced, IS-LL..............9,.............1.08,........7,.........560m,...
Balanced, IS-ER-LL,.......9,.............1.08,........9,.........720m,...
Balanced, C-ER-LL,......11,.............1.32,........9,.........720m,...
(IS(LL)= Duration +0.08 Range +110m)(IS(ER)= Duration -0.17 Range +45m Heat +1)
(Clan= Duration -0.18 Range -20m Heat -1)


So are Lasers Balanced?
would they feel more Balanced with My Values?

Thoughts, Comments Concerns?
Thanks

Edit- Title Changed,

Im a construction worker so Im not great with alot of numbers except that ones that get me paid. But looking at these numbers it seems damage, heat, duration are balanced but range is completely ignored. Am I wrong here? Is the C range advantage being ignored or also factored in?

Is critical space and tonnage also factored in or being ignored?

Also it looks like some of the heat could be adjusted in favour of the Inner Sphere weapons a bit over all.

If any of the balancing factors are being out right ignored in the topic then its a bunch of bull like most topics from second rate Omni pilots. No offense to the good Omni pilots out there.

Edited by Johnny Z, 14 September 2015 - 06:05 PM.

[Davers]

Your post asks if lasers are already balanced, then you create your own 'balanced' list. Why didn't you just call the thread "How I would balance lasers"?

[Midax]

I like to see increased burn times on lasers across the board. IS standard would have the fastest burn times, followed by IS ER, and then Clan ER. DPS should be setup so that IS pulse>Clan pulse=IS standard>IS ER>Clan ER

Max ranges should not be increased beyond clan optimal ranges. The should take away damage drop off from clan lasers so they only deal damage out to optimal range. IS gets to keep damage drop of until they hit clan optimal for that class of laser and then deal no damage beyond that. So a Clan ERLL would deal damage until 740m, the IS LL would have drop off starting at 450m and end at 740m, and the IS ERLL would have drop off starting at 675m and stop at 740m.

At max range Clans would have the highest DPS. As range drops closer to IS optimal range the IS lasers would start winning in DPS. Longer burn times would allow for more time to TT and spread all laser damage with Clans most effected. The most important part is the IS truly having the DPS advantage within optimal range, because currently that is not true with many of the lasers.

[Andi Nagasia]

Davers, on 14 September 2015 - 05:57 PM, said:

Your post asks if lasers are already balanced, then you create your own 'balanced' list. Why didn't you just call the thread "How I would balance lasers"?

abit of both,
i put forward the Lasers Original Stats,
then i use a Formula to see how Balanced they are,
to see what you think ether way Balanced or not,

[Khobai]

Quote

I like to see increased burn times on lasers across the board.

The base stats on the IS lasers are fine. The only thing that really put them over the top were the insane weapon quirks.

The base stats on the Clan lasers are completely unbalanced though. Way too much damage and range.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 14 September 2015 - 05:37 PM, said:

IS medium lasers are fine. We tried them at 3 heat and it was unbalanced on light mechs. 4 heat is where they need to stay.

No, it was the Swayback that got Medium Lasers nerfed.

And that bandaid is no longer needed. It's also not needed on the Small Laser, which was nerfed for the same reason.

[Andi Nagasia]

Khobai, on 14 September 2015 - 06:25 PM, said:

The base stats on the IS lasers are fine. The only thing that really put them over the top were the insane weapon quirks.

The base stats on the Clan lasers are completely unbalanced though. Way too much damage and range.

from the Table ive made it actually looks like Small and Medium lasers are for the most part Balanced,
its just that Large Lasers are tilting the Scale abit too much and i think thats where the problem is,

[Lord0fHats]

Given my own experiences, I think the game balance would be much improved with these changes;

Lower range on all Clan Lasers, reduce Damage on some. CERLL needs serious work, as it is a bad weapon at the moment. It's fire duration is just too long for usability even at its current damage. Clan lasers might need adjustments to their heat after this change but I'd lower the range and damage first then adjust the heat if necessary. the CERPPC might be okay if they ever fixed the hit reg problem.

Ballistics need buffs (not gauss). I'd boost the shots per ton on every weapon, and probably boost the damage of all ACs (standard, Ultra, and LBX). Maybe a range boost as well but maybe not.

SRMs on both sides just need their hit reg fixed. I mean, seriously, since closed beta these things have had reg problems and they still do.

LRMS need a complete rework. No idea what to do about those. Streak Missiles as well. I'd actually like to see the SSRM-6 just completely removed from game. It's too powerful vs lights.

[Khobai]

Quote

No, it was the Swayback that got Medium Lasers nerfed.

The swayback got small lasers nerfed. The jenner got medium lasers nerfed if I recall.

People complained the jenner had as much firepower as an Atlas when the heat was at 3 per laser.

[Midax]

Boating lasers in beta got them nerfed with ghost heat. What happened? Nothing, we still boat lasers. Heat doesn't have consequences under shutdown temp so ghost heat is a minor annoyance.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Assuming you want a dynamic balance between the two tech bases to minimize the need for quirks IS lasers have to be superior to their clan equivalents once you enter the IS laser range.

Your numbers don't do that, hell if anything they buff the clan tech. Considering the wolverine 6k is considered to be on par with high tier clan mechs a 15-20% improvement in IS lasers is probably about right and would certainly be where I'd start.

[Khobai]

Quote

Boating lasers in beta got them nerfed with ghost heat. What happened? Nothing, we still boat lasers. Heat doesn't have consequences under shutdown temp so ghost heat is a minor annoyance.

People used to boat more than 6 lasers though. The 9 MPL headcapper Awesome used to be a thing. At one time that was actually a scary mech, but then they significantly reduced the size of head hitboxes, and it wasnt so scary anymore.

[Sjorpha]

A very important factor in the clan vs is laser balance is the max alpha per ton and # of energy hardpoints. That coupled with the range advantage and ability to boat more heatsinks is the key to clan laservomit superiority.

So in order for a higher damage and lower damage weapon with the same tonnage, like the clan vs is medium, to be balanced the lower damage weapon must be significantly more efficient. If there is also a range advantage on top of the damage the low damage shorter range weapon must be a LOT more efficient to compete.

Currently this isn't adressed, the lasers are roughly equal in efficiency, which means the range and damage advantages of clan lasers come with no real trade-off.

You can't adress the issue as a formula for just efficiency without taking the damage and heatsink advantage into account. The clan xl tonnage advantage also plays into this heatsink advantage when comparing against xl unfriendly is laser boats.

Edited by Sjorpha, 14 September 2015 - 11:27 PM.

[kapusta11]

The fact that some weapons have similar names doesn't mean they have similar purpose. C LPL has 600m range, that's more than what IS LL has, it's a long range weapon and thus should not be compared to IS LPL in any way. Same goes for the rest.

Edited by kapusta11, 14 September 2015 - 11:25 PM.

[Anjian]

If you want to redo lasers, we need to start with a clean sheet. That means quirks need to be removed first. Its hard to predict what are the combined effects of the buffs with quirks and with modules. One of the effects of introducing quirks and modules, is that weapons level balancing has literally stopped, and balancing is now centralized on quirks. And I think that has been bad overall for the game.