Jump to content

Spreadsheet Warrior Online! Let's Talk Balance And Numbers

Balance Gameplay Weapons

35 replies to this topic

#1 Y E O N N E

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Nimble
  • The Nimble
  • 16,810 posts

Posted 30 May 2015 - 08:18 PM

Because I'm a total nerd and because I really like playing this game, I thought I'd try my hand at balancing the equipment in this game. Settle in, find a snack, and grab a drink, because this is long and there is no way to provide a TL;DR edition. What I'm hoping you fine people will do is point out game-play scenarios I hadn't considered where some of these numbers might be abused so we can tweak them together.

Assume up front that we're working in an environment without quirks, because the quirks are a symptom of deficient balance with the basic gear in the game.

Lasers, Lasers Everywhere!

I admit, this section is the primary focus of my concern and is a bit more objective than the following sections. Hopefully, you guys can pick up some of the slack over there.

The laser is the bread-and-butter of equipment in this game. No ammo requirements, works in all situations, easy to aim, decent damage output, low resource requirements. Unfortunately, lasers are also the least-balanced equipment in MWO. Just within the Inner Sphere, there are three lasers that are all but completely useless. Compare the Inner Sphere gear to Clans, however, and the whole thing becomes something of a joke. Inferior range, damage, weight, and size characteristics conspire to make them pretty awful.

But wait, you say, don't Inner Sphere lasers have shorter durations? Why yes, yes they do. Unfortunately, duration doesn't tell the whole story. You see, you can have a laser that burns for 0.5 seconds, but if it only does 1 damage then it's only doing 2 damage per second over the course of the burn, and that's essentially scratching paint. The amount of damage divided by the time taken to deliver that damage is called the impulse damage rate, or impulse damage. Out of the all of the lasers in this game, only two of the Inner Sphere options feature a higher impulse: the Large Pulse Laser and the Medium Pulse Laser.

Here is a list of all the current impulse damages:

IS SL: 4
C-ERSL: 5

IS ML: 5.56
C-ERML: 6.09

IS ERLL: 7.20
C-ERLL: 7.33

IS SPL: 8.00
C-SPL: 8.00

IS MPL: 10.00
C-MPL: 9.41

IS LPL: 16.42
C-LPL: 11.61

The odd-man out is the IS Large Laser, which has range comparable to a C-ERML and an impulse more closely resembling the C-LPL.

So why is this a problem?

This is a problem because a Clan player with a given number of a particular laser can always out-damage an Inner Sphere player with the same number of the same class of weapon even if the Clan player pulls the beam off of the target at the same time the Inner Sphere player's lasers complete their burn. This is in addition to having superior range, superior speed, and superior damage. So the longer duration isn't penalizing the Clan player at all relative to the Inner Sphere player, it's just penalizing the Clan player relative to lore...which is worthless as far as fair game-play is concerned.

You might say "what about the IS Large Pulse and Medium Pulse, though?" Those lasers suffer from tremendous drawbacks in weight and range. 365 meters might seem workable, and it is, but then you remember that the laser weighs 7 tons and you have to consider what else you can take for 7 tons that might be an all-around more useful build. The Medium Pulse has a range restriction of 220 meters, and since it only really offers one extra damage and 0.3 less seconds of exposure over the IS MedLas, it isn't usually worth taking unless you have speed, armor, or cover enough to close with the target.

Now, since I don't like the idea of just butchering Clan equipment to balance with the Inner Sphere or of buffing IS equipment when there are future IS options available, I brought in what I think are the most analogous of those future options and made some tweaks to them to create the following spread:

Posted Image

You will notice how impulse damages are nearly identical for each pairing of Clan and Inner Sphere lasers. What this does is allow both parties to expose themselves for the same amount of time and do the same amount of damage. The Clan player has the option, however, of exposing himself a little longer to finish the burn and deal the extra damage if the target does not retreat to cover or whatever other impetus is available.

On the other side of the fence, the Inner Sphere player can begin engaging the Clan player for maximum damage before the Clan player gets within his own optimum. This allows the slower Inner Sphere a chance to deal some extra damage of their own within a narrow window.

Notice that the range on the Inner Sphere lasers does not correspond to the intersection point where a Clan laser does the same damage as the Inner Sphere laser; it comes before it, i.e. 520 meters for C-ERML to do 5 damage. If it did correspond exactly to that point, then the Clan laser would be dealing that same damage at a massive disadvantage in impulse, and certain Inner Sphere 'Mechs would be able to just hold the Clans out all day without a care and win with the same level of broken reliability as the quirked TDR-5SS.

Furthermore, the Clans still retain a soft range advantage over the Inner Sphere, because their lasers do more damage than their Inner Sphere counterparts at the latter's max optimum range. Clans also have the option of bringing Targeting Computers in addition to Modules (which I also think need a rework, but I'll save that for another time), which dramatically closes the gap. I am on the fence about whether or not Inner Sphere lasers should receive another, smaller nudge in range to stay competitive.

One of the primary issues I had with this table is figuring out what to do on the Small end of the scale. They are all so similar that it's really a wash on which one to take; an ER Small is the best in pretty much any scenario, and I can only imagine ever taking the Pulse or Heavy variants when running a Light like the Arctic Cheetah or Firestarter.

Dakka, Dakka, Dakka!

Auto-cannons are, I think, one of the gimpiest classes of weapons in the game. They are generally too heavy or too big to do anything particularly well with the exceptions of extreme long-range and extreme short-range combat, where Gauss and AC/20 reign supreme. Sure, ACs do okay, but they aren't stellar and their deficiencies handicap 'Mechs that have a lot of ballistic hard-points.

For the Inner Sphere, the primary drawbacks to ballistics are size and weight, with the AC/2 getting a special mention for heat and the AC/20 a special mention for range. They deliver single-shot, pinpoint damage and that's a huge boon, but it's not enough to offset the negatives when bringing multiples precludes speed, good heat dissipation, and good backup firepower on even some of the heaviest 'Mechs in the game.

For the Clans, the primary drawbacks are projectile speed and the duration of the burst. They also suffer from less critical size and weight limitations, but in the majority of cases that typically prevents the stacking of 20-class or C-Gauss weapons on chassis that have supreme agility characteristics. Bringing ballistics as a Clan player means rolling with lots of face-time against Inner Sphere ballistics and having to be an excellent marksman to even hit the target, since Clan AC round velocities are low and the long burst can be spread.

The following table attempts to correct for these deficiencies in the same mode of thought as the Laser table:

Posted Image
EDIT: There is an error on this table. The LAC/5 should weigh 5 tons and take 2 slots, not weigh 2 tons and take 5 slots.


There are more than a few major deals in this chart.

First up, burst fire for everybody! Standard ACs and Ultra ACs receive bursts, and their shell velocities have been eyeballed according to how much damage each single one does and how fast a similarly damaging, single IS slug does in the game now. Burst fire is how ACs are described in the lore: each "shot" is a cassette containing a pre-determined number of actual shells that get fired. I admit, there was no real game-play reason for doing this, so consider this my olive branch for people who love the lore of the game. I did, however, differentiate the burst behavior between ACs and UACs, and even between IS and Clan UACs. Inner Sphere retain some of their front-loading because their ballistics are so much heavier, and bringing standard ACs and UACs is a real commitment that typically demands an XL if your machine is less than 80 tons. I'm open to the possibility of reducing shot interval on the C-UAC/20, I wasn't sure if giving them the same duration as the IS UAC/20 would have been fair given how crippling it usually is to bring a 20-class weapon in an IS 'Mech in both range and resource requirements.

Next, LB-series ballistics are basically defined by their ability to fire single shots and switch ammo types. So nobody feels left out in the cold and because it seemed prudent given that IS started recovering real LB tech without having to reverse engineer Clan tech (okay, olive branch part two!), I elected to make all LB-series ballistics fire single slugs and with the same performance curves. I think that means almost everybody will take an LB over a standard auto-cannon, but I did tweak the heat profiles and firing cycles to make them less appealing if you want to bring additional weapons. They are lighter, smaller, and have better range, but they are also hotter, slower, and more difficult to aim on account of shell velocity.

Finally, MagShots and AP Gauss are there to give 'Mechs like the Locust and the Nova a ballistic option beyond Machine Guns, but they have very different uses. The MagShot is described as an anti-materiel sniper weapon, while the AP Gauss is an anti-personnel weapon with armor-piercing characteristics (ugh, another olive branch!). As such, it seems rational to provide the MagShot with long range and low cyclic DPS while the AP Gauss is much shorter ranged with higher cyclic DPS. There are some game-play motives, too. No 'Mech has more than six ballistics, with the upcoming exception of the Shadowcat. Six MagShots is only 12 damage, less than a single Gauss. Boating them on a heavier 'Mech with six of these hard-points is inefficient and you'd be better served bringing two Light Gauss and four MagShots, which still isn't a particularly phenomenal hit but is light enough to also bring backup firepower similar to the Clan options. If it gets out of hand, a possible limiter would be restricting charge to three at a time. Also immediately on the table is limiting range down to 720, 600 and as low as 540 meters.

The AP Gauss, on the other hand, does 3 damage, and six of them is 18 points...that's more than a whole C-Gauss for a mere three tons. Consider a Dire Wolf with two C-Gauss and four AP Gauss; that's 42 damage with only 16 heat and massive amounts of dissipation. Capping the range on it creates a niche where smaller 'Mechs can use it as a primary ballistic while a Dire Wolf won't be delivering 42 points of low-heat damage across the map. If it becomes a problem, restricting charge to two at a time would put it in line with the MagShot.

In either case, at 2 heat per shot, stacking multiples quickly becomes hot with an inferior damage-to-heat and DPS-to-heat profile compared to larger ballistics like the 5, 10, and even 20-class weapons, which matters quite a bit in a brawl.

Let it Rain, Let it Rain!

Missiles. Missiles are weapons of extremes, either extreme short or extreme long. This limits their usefulness, but it also means the complement each other well. SRMs are amazing in a brawl, and LRMs are amazing support for brawlers which, by nature of the role, keep their locks.

I really don't think there's too much of an imbalance in missiles. They are pretty good. I do think IS need their larger Streaks and that Streaks should not be able to turn on a dime, and I think LRMs need flatter trajectories and higher projectile velocities so that they are more useful as direct-fire weapons, but overall they are pretty good.

Posted Image

As you can see, not much was changed. IS SRMs received 2.5 damage per missile to balance the weight commitment, Clan SRMs received longer range and faster projectile velocity. Streaks have had their projectile velocities equalized; I really don't know what the rationale was for granting C-Streaks higher velocity. They've also been given an extra 0.15 points of damage per missile, similar to current SRMs.

Clan LRMs have had their cool-downs reduced to compensate for the time taken to stream a single volley, equalizing the cyclic DPS with their Inner Sphere counterparts. While both Clan and IS LRMs have had their missile velocities increased, the Inner Sphere ones received a greater bump to acknowledge the greater commitment made when bringing LRMs similar to the impetus for increased damage on the IS SRMs.

Blue Lightning

PPCs. I don't like PPCs as they are, but I'm not about to rewrite the book, so all I did was add the IS future options, reduce the heat, increase the velocity, tweak the cool-downs, and call it a day.

Posted Image

C-ERPPC is the ideal version. It offers the best damage and range profile for this class of weapon, which isn't usually going to be fired rapidly since it takes time to calculate the trajectory. So while the heat profile looks a bit steep, in practice it's going to perform more similarly to the IS ERPPC when firing at maximum rate. All of the Inner Sphere options are essentially dancing around it. A trio of LPPC is the best match for it, but chews up hard-points and requires greater trigger discipline. The PPC is better for 'Mechs that are slot-starved, and the ERPPC is ideal for IS 'Mechs that are neither slot-starved nor tonnage-starved. The Heavy PPC is going to be a good option for slot-starved 'Mechs, though a combination of LPPC and PPC might perform better if you have tons and slots and not a whole lot of other hard-points.

I'm open to suggestions.

Engines, Heat Capacity, and Dissipation

This is the cherry on top of everything else. While I believe the above concepts can work with what we have now, I think it becomes even more appealing if we change the heat system.

There are many vocal complaints over the way MWO handles heat. Before presenting an alternative, let's list them:
  • Heat capacity is too high, allowing rapid repeat strikes with high damage values
  • Heat capacity scales with the number of heat-sinks, providing insane cap advantages to 'Mechs that can fit large numbers of heat-sinks and empowering No. 1 on this list
  • Engine-external double heat-sinks do not offer their full dissipation capabilities, permanently crippling 'Mechs that do not have 10 internal sinks and reducing the utility of the lower heat caps
  • Ghost heat is arbitrary and unfair
So what to do? Personally, I do think that larger 'Mechs should have a slight heat capacity advantage, otherwise all of that extra tonnage is far less of an advantage than it should be. But I also recognize that being able to fire two 70+ point strikes within seconds of each other is ridiculous, and that smaller 'Mechs need to be able to cool off faster than they do. Thus, I propose that all DHS be made to deliver their full 0.2 dissipation per second, and that heat cap be implemented along a piece-wise function illustrated by the table below:





Posted Image

The idea is to incentivize firing in smaller groups or using smaller weapons. A Locust that can alpha with 30 points of damage from six ER Mediums is still perfectly feasible, but it's going to take 11 seconds before he can do it again, 10 if he has all of the skills unlocked. That Locust, however, has a lot to gain by mounting six small-class lasers instead, though, including much higher impulse damage per point of heat, better overall DPS, and the ability to fire multiple times before having to cool off.

On the other end of the scale, a 'Mech like the Gargoyle extracts maximum benefit from its locked C-XL400, with the highest heat-cap in the game giving it the ability to fire a combination of several powerful guns all at once without shutting down or allowing it to stay engaged for longer than other more agile 'Mechs with smaller engines. With 18 DHS, a Gargoyle could fire three C-LPL or two C-HLL together and still have some room left over for some smaller lasers to augment that firepower.

Ghost heat is entirely unnecessary with this.

My concern is that 40 max might be too low. I think anything above a max of 50, though, is too high.

So, that's that. I welcome all ideas and concerns. Insults or otherwise unconstructive posting will be ignored. If you made it this far, thanks for reading! Let's fix this game!

Edit: Spelling and grammar.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 30 May 2015 - 09:09 PM.


#2 FupDup

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 26,888 posts
  • LocationThe Keeper of Memes

Posted 30 May 2015 - 09:02 PM

It's a pretty good start. Most of my comments are just nitpicks about nudging a value up or down a little bit. I might elaborate on that in a later post.


My only source of objection is the engine-based heat cap. There's already an arm's race for big engines as it is, caused by the following factors:

1. More speed (as expected).
2. You get more bonus heatsink slots, which gives you more critical space for building with. This lets you install more tech upgrades.
3. Due to external Poordubs, you also get lower heat efficiency.
4. Better agility (turn speed, twist speed, arm swing speed, etc.)

Your proposal removes item #3 from that list, but then it adds another factor to replace it. It might even be more severe than the existing item #3.

You used the Gargoyle example, but I'll use counterexamples of the Timberwolf and Stormcrow. Their successes are in part because of being so fast from their big engines. Engine-based agility is also what causes people to complain that the Mad Cat dances around like a ballerina.

I'm also going to point to the Clan lights, with their hardlocked lower engines. Now they get a lower alpha threshold in addition to their existing drawbacks. :(


Big engines are more than beneficial enough in most cases. In the Gargles' case, he can just have his role of a highly mobile assault mech distinguished via quirks or whatever so that it's the most agile assault around (until the Charger comes, which I think should be THE most agile assault ever because lol STD400 engine).

Edited by FupDup, 30 May 2015 - 09:04 PM.


#3 Mystere

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 22,783 posts
  • LocationClassified

Posted 30 May 2015 - 09:07 PM

There are over a hundred variables to consider. Spreadsheets just ain't gonna cut it. :o

#4 Sergeant Random

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Philanthropist
  • Philanthropist
  • 462 posts
  • LocationPeriphery

Posted 30 May 2015 - 09:10 PM

Spreadsheets are a start. Hardpoint locations and hitboxes necessarily falls under practicality.

#5 Lightfoot

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 6,612 posts
  • LocationOlympus Mons

Posted 30 May 2015 - 09:15 PM

Clan Laser tech is a lot hotter, that balances it out.

#6 Y E O N N E

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Nimble
  • The Nimble
  • 16,810 posts

Posted 30 May 2015 - 09:27 PM

View PostMystere, on 30 May 2015 - 09:07 PM, said:

There are over a hundred variables to consider. Spreadsheets just ain't gonna cut it. :o


Nobody knows them all, which is part of the point of this thread. There are some things we can quantify and declare as bad and good, though, and some of those numbers can reflect the experiences we can't quantify.

Not trying to address any of it would mean we fail automatically.

View PostSergeant Random, on 30 May 2015 - 09:10 PM, said:

Spreadsheets are a start. Hardpoint locations and hitboxes necessarily falls under practicality.


Hard-point locations and hit-boxes can be helped in many ways, including extra armor if the 'Mech needs to expose itself more to fire and extra twist speed and yaw angle if it is broad and has to turn more than typical to finally get a section out of the way.

Lack of hard-points with the existing hard-points in locations that can't really be used? Then we can consider weapon quirks. There aren't a whole lot of 'Mechs affected by this one.

The real goal is to get the majority of 'Mechs performing in a similar fashion. Right now, the quirks are trying to compensate more for the short-comings of the equipment you put on the 'Mechs, not so much the 'Mechs themselves. It's too much to keep track of, and we need to simplify it.

View PostLightfoot, on 30 May 2015 - 09:15 PM, said:

Clan Laser tech is a lot hotter, that balances it out.


The higher dissipation alone cancels that out, and then it goes lopsided when the Clans have every other advantage there is to have, too. Every other game with even teams balances things like damage with short range or long cycles. Clan tech does not balance against IS tech like that though, it's just straight better. Higher damage potential, higher impulse, higher cyclic DPS, longer range. You have to give some of it up.

Also, you should notice that I'm not necessarily using PGI values on Clan laser heat. The C-ERML, for example, is sitting at 5, while the C-ERLL is at 9.5. Hotter, yes, but nothing that the extra 10 DHS you can fit won't compensate for.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 30 May 2015 - 09:29 PM.


#7 Aresye

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Heavy Lifter
  • Heavy Lifter
  • 3,462 posts

Posted 30 May 2015 - 09:55 PM

I get the whole "impulse damage thing." It works great when talking about the base stats of mechs...

...but we're not talking about base stats now, are we?

The biggest complaints: Timberwolf, Stormcrow, and Superquirked Mechs

Are you factoring in what the impulse damage is with a 12-24% increase in laser duration for the Timberwolf? Let's take the classic Timber laser vomit. You have 6 energy weapons total, so at the bare minimum, you're looking at 18% longer laser duration and 18% longer cooldown.

So for a TBR laser vomit, your numbers now look like this:
IS LPL: 16.42
C-LPL: 9.84

IS ML: 5.56
C-ML: 5.15

So basically, according to the way you have this setup, the popular laser builds on the Timberwolf and Stormcrow are outmatched by the IS lasers..."WITHOUT QUIRKS." Add in some of the heavier IS quirk builds and the impulse damage goes even more heavily in favor of the IS.

#8 Quicksilver Aberration

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Nightmare
  • The Nightmare
  • 11,809 posts
  • LocationKansas City, MO

Posted 30 May 2015 - 10:19 PM

View PostAresye Kerensky, on 30 May 2015 - 09:55 PM, said:

I get the whole "impulse damage thing." It works great when talking about the base stats of mechs...

...but we're not talking about base stats now, are we?

The biggest complaints: Timberwolf, Stormcrow, and Superquirked Mechs

Are you factoring in what the impulse damage is with a 12-24% increase in laser duration for the Timberwolf? Let's take the classic Timber laser vomit. You have 6 energy weapons total, so at the bare minimum, you're looking at 18% longer laser duration and 18% longer cooldown.

So for a TBR laser vomit, your numbers now look like this:
IS LPL: 16.42
C-LPL: 9.84

IS ML: 5.56
C-ML: 5.15

So basically, according to the way you have this setup, the popular laser builds on the Timberwolf and Stormcrow are outmatched by the IS lasers..."WITHOUT QUIRKS." Add in some of the heavier IS quirk builds and the impulse damage goes even more heavily in favor of the IS.

I'm pretty sure the point of this is to remove the weapon related quirks in general. Hopefully they would then get the nerfs the Timber Wolf and Stormcrow truly deserve to keep them in line at least until PGI realizes the problem with the omnimech restrictions.

#9 El Bandito

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Big Daddy
  • Big Daddy
  • 26,736 posts
  • LocationStill doing ungodly amount of damage, but with more accuracy.

Posted 30 May 2015 - 10:33 PM

Well presented. I might argue on certain numbers, but I will acknowledge your effort.

#10 Y E O N N E

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Nimble
  • The Nimble
  • 16,810 posts

Posted 30 May 2015 - 10:37 PM

View PostFupDup, on 30 May 2015 - 09:02 PM, said:

It's a pretty good start. Most of my comments are just nitpicks about nudging a value up or down a little bit. I might elaborate on that in a later post.


My only source of objection is the engine-based heat cap. There's already an arm's race for big engines as it is, caused by the following factors:

1. More speed (as expected).
2. You get more bonus heatsink slots, which gives you more critical space for building with. This lets you install more tech upgrades.
3. Due to external Poordubs, you also get lower heat efficiency.
4. Better agility (turn speed, twist speed, arm swing speed, etc.)

Your proposal removes item #3 from that list, but then it adds another factor to replace it. It might even be more severe than the existing item #3.

You used the Gargoyle example, but I'll use counterexamples of the Timberwolf and Stormcrow. Their successes are in part because of being so fast from their big engines. Engine-based agility is also what causes people to complain that the Mad Cat dances around like a ballerina.

I'm also going to point to the Clan lights, with their hardlocked lower engines. Now they get a lower alpha threshold in addition to their existing drawbacks. :(


Big engines are more than beneficial enough in most cases. In the Gargles' case, he can just have his role of a highly mobile assault mech distinguished via quirks or whatever so that it's the most agile assault around (until the Charger comes, which I think should be THE most agile assault ever because lol STD400 engine).


Like I said, I'm not against bumping it up 5 or 10 points across the range. I'd love if I could somehow test it in PTS.

The real reason the TBR and SCR excel, though, is not just agility alone, rather it's agility in combination with firepower and armor and the space to mount incredible heat management. A Timberwolf running around at 89 with a medium-long-range 54-point alpha and being able to fire it twice back-to-back is the problem. A Storm Crow running at 107 and mounting a similar 50 point alpha and also being able to fire it back-to-back is the problem. Far fewer people would care if the Timberwolf or Storm Crow had to juggle lasers and was restricted to firing 30 point groups at 350 meters, because you can do the same thing all day with IS 'Mechs with similar agility. If you lower the heat cap, it's no longer feasible to fire that 54 point alpha because it's going to sit you right up at 40 points of heat...5 above your cap. Instead, you are going to have to fire half of it, wait a second and change, then fire the other half...and even then you are going to be up there in heat. The long wait to be able to fire the third volley will provide openings for shorter-ranged, low-alpha, high-DPS 'Mechs to close and be useful, meaning you are going to want either a mix of weapons per 'Mech or a team with mix of specializations.

In the end, though, I'm actually more concerned that the dissipation is too low for the given caps, even with all TruDubs. I'd much rather deal with higher dissipation than higher cap, because cap is more important in limiting large alphas.

Regarding the 'Mechs with small engines, it provides a raison d'être for the ligher weapons beyond being filler for unused tons or slots. Those hot ER Mediums and Medium Pulse become less savory when you can bring ER Smalls that reach out to the same distance as the IS Medium Pulse, and when you have MagShots or Heavy MG in tow.

As for the coupling of agility outside of top speed with engine size, I'm agnostic toward getting rid of that. I don't care either way, in my experience the rate of turn past whatever the most loadout-efficient engine size is...is not going to help you much anyway. Most Clan 'Mechs have pretty damn efficient engines for their load-out abilities, the exception being lights, as always, and the Dire Wolf. More important to me is yaw-angle, which is a 'Mech-specific stat not coupled with the engine at all. On a lot of 'Mechs, it's way too low, and on some, it's way too high. As a general rule of thumb, the flatter and broader the 'Mech, the larger it's yaw angle should be. Battlemaster is sad. Storm Crow is friggin' ecstatic.

View PostAresye Kerensky, on 30 May 2015 - 09:55 PM, said:

I get the whole "impulse damage thing." It works great when talking about the base stats of mechs...

...but we're not talking about base stats now, are we?

The biggest complaints: Timberwolf, Stormcrow, and Superquirked Mechs

Are you factoring in what the impulse damage is with a 12-24% increase in laser duration for the Timberwolf? Let's take the classic Timber laser vomit. You have 6 energy weapons total, so at the bare minimum, you're looking at 18% longer laser duration and 18% longer cooldown.

So for a TBR laser vomit, your numbers now look like this:
IS LPL: 16.42
C-LPL: 9.84

IS ML: 5.56
C-ML: 5.15

So basically, according to the way you have this setup, the popular laser builds on the Timberwolf and Stormcrow are outmatched by the IS lasers..."WITHOUT QUIRKS." Add in some of the heavier IS quirk builds and the impulse damage goes even more heavily in favor of the IS.


But I am talking base stats. I said at the very beginning of the thread, right before you even get to the "Lasers, Lasers Everywhere!" heading, that we're operating in an environment where we've stripped quirks away because the deficiencies in equipment are a major contributor to the existence of quirks in the first place. You can't even reasonably introduce new equipment with quirks. If you try that, you've got 20% range buff on an IS ER Medium, giving it something stupid-absurd like 540 meters reach. You haven't seen broken until you've encountered a Locust tagging you for 25 at 540 meters every 3.6 seconds. Or how about that Thud, hitting you at 608 meters with ER Med? Broooooooooken as hell. It goes the other way, too, with negative quirks. Longer duration and low impulse on the Heavy Lasers makes them totally useless; too hot and too short-ranged for no benefit over the longer ranged alternatives.

So, the numbers you see in the table are the numbers that you will get if you do the math using the numbers in that table. The C-ERML and IS ML are doing the same impulse, so they do the same damage in the same time if both are within their marked operational ranges. If you are going to fire a laser outside of its operational range, it will naturally have a proportionally reduced impulse.

View PostWM Quicksilver, on 30 May 2015 - 10:19 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure the point of this is to remove the weapon related quirks in general. Hopefully they would then get the nerfs the Timber Wolf and Stormcrow truly deserve to keep them in line at least until PGI realizes the problem with the omnimech restrictions.


Correct. I'm trying to level the playing field equipment-wise so we can see which 'Mechs are truly under-performing and, if necessary, only give quirks to those 'Mechs.

View PostEl Bandito, on 30 May 2015 - 10:33 PM, said:

Well presented. I might argue on certain numbers, but I will acknowledge your effort.


Please, share!

#11 Wrenchfarm

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Big Brother
  • Big Brother
  • 1,039 posts

Posted 30 May 2015 - 10:56 PM

Really love a lot of the suggestions here. Thanks for putting numbers to Clan laser impulse damage, a concept reasonable people have been screaming since clans dropped and the "the burn time is longer so it's balanced" downplaying started. There is literally NO drawback to Clan lasers. The recent Timber and Crow nerfs would be unnecessary if the weapons themselves weren't so completely out of whack with IS standards.

Engine bracketed heat caps seem like a good way to limit alphas without resorting to ghost heat while still allowing special mechs like the Gargoyle and (presumably although I don't know what you would put on it) Pretty Baby to make use of their uniquely giant engine caps. Would LOVE to see heat based around dissipation and skillful use of a mixed group of weapons than just boating up the highest alpha possible.

I think Quirks serve a decent purpose and I'm glad they are in the game, but as we've seen some of them have gotten way out of hand and it's a sloppy way to balance things. Trying to put band-**** on every mech to cover up for a flawed foundation is a suckers game. Balance the equipment first, then selectively doll out a few quirks where it makes sense (extra heat cap to allow a Awesome 8Q to alpha its iconic 3 PPCs, magic armor and structure for the Atlas so it can retain it's line-breaker role in the post-clan power-creep age, etc. Although who knows, with a proper foundation, maybe the Atlas wouldn't even need the help).

Good suggestions, hope this thread gets the attention it deserves and not just defensive downplaying comments.

#12 Nothing Whatsoever

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 3,655 posts
  • LocationNowhere

Posted 30 May 2015 - 11:06 PM

Nice.



I'll share some thoughts when sober. :ph34r:

#13 Aresye

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Heavy Lifter
  • Heavy Lifter
  • 3,462 posts

Posted 31 May 2015 - 12:11 AM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 30 May 2015 - 10:37 PM, said:

But I am talking base stats. I said at the very beginning of the thread, right before you even get to the "Lasers, Lasers Everywhere!" heading, that we're operating in an environment where we've stripped quirks away because the deficiencies in equipment are a major contributor to the existence of quirks in the first place. You can't even reasonably introduce new equipment with quirks. If you try that, you've got 20% range buff on an IS ER Medium, giving it something stupid-absurd like 540 meters reach. You haven't seen broken until you've encountered a Locust tagging you for 25 at 540 meters every 3.6 seconds. Or how about that Thud, hitting you at 608 meters with ER Med? Broooooooooken as hell. It goes the other way, too, with negative quirks. Longer duration and low impulse on the Heavy Lasers makes them totally useless; too hot and too short-ranged for no benefit over the longer ranged alternatives.

So, the numbers you see in the table are the numbers that you will get if you do the math using the numbers in that table. The C-ERML and IS ML are doing the same impulse, so they do the same damage in the same time if both are within their marked operational ranges. If you are going to fire a laser outside of its operational range, it will naturally have a proportionally reduced impulse.


Don't know how I missed that part. Hey, if you're about getting rid of multi-second laser durations, I'm all for it.

#14 Quicksilver Aberration

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Nightmare
  • The Nightmare
  • 11,809 posts
  • LocationKansas City, MO

Posted 31 May 2015 - 12:54 AM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 30 May 2015 - 10:37 PM, said:

In the end, though, I'm actually more concerned that the dissipation is too low for the given caps, even with all TruDubs. I'd much rather deal with higher dissipation than higher cap, because cap is more important in limiting large alphas.

Even with a limited heat cap, I'd be wary of increasing dissipation too far, even a sustainable 40 point alpha is nasty and some would be possible. 3 C-LPLs could probably get away with a full alpha for 39 points of damage at 540m even with a max heat of 30, and this is without ghost heat in the mix. Sure you won't be able to poke as much, but neither does the Dire in comp matches and it is still a force to reckon with in most matches.

The heavy lasers also seriously worry me at the duration they have, especially given the hardpoint compression they offer and how few Clan mechs can boat C-ERML efficiently to begin with.

One thing I will note, remember that the Clans have an ER-Pulse, so you could probably adjust the C-LPL range and such down to IS level and just treat the Heavy Lasers as the standard counterpart to the C-ER lasers.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 31 May 2015 - 01:01 AM.


#15 Y E O N N E

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Nimble
  • The Nimble
  • 16,810 posts

Posted 31 May 2015 - 04:12 AM

View PostWM Quicksilver, on 31 May 2015 - 12:54 AM, said:

Even with a limited heat cap, I'd be wary of increasing dissipation too far, even a sustainable 40 point alpha is nasty and some would be possible. 3 C-LPLs could probably get away with a full alpha for 39 points of damage at 540m even with a max heat of 30, and this is without ghost heat in the mix. Sure you won't be able to poke as much, but neither does the Dire in comp matches and it is still a force to reckon with in most matches. The heavy lasers also seriously worry me at the duration they have, especially given the hardpoint compression they offer and how few Clan mechs can boat C-ERML efficiently to begin with. One thing I will note, remember that the Clans have an ER-Pulse, so you could probably adjust the C-LPL range and such down to IS level and just treat the Heavy Lasers as the standard counterpart to the C-ER lasers.


I only added the weapons that I thought could balance deficiencies already present in the game. I was not interested in anything that might be too disruptive and one-up the other side, with the exception of the MagShots and AP Gauss because there are a lot of ballistic-heavy 'Mechs that are too light to bring what already exists. The ER Pulse would just upset the game again.

Heavy lasers are tricky. You can't really make them the Clans' standard counterparts. They do twice the damage without weighing twice as much or taking up a bunch of slots. If you give them the same reach as standard IS lasers, then you have to give them the same impulse and that results in a duration of 1.8 and 2.3 seconds on the Medium and Large Heavies. That's unusable. You can't shorten the beam without increasing impulse, and if you increase impulse you have to shorten the range.

So...you shorten the range and use them as the answer to standard Pulse, instead. You can shorten the burn to usable levels because the impulse you are trying to match is higher. You can drop the range to balance for the higher impulse. There's not a whole lot you can do about the weight or the slots, though if the weapons were considerably bulkier it would be a lot easier to justify certain performance characteristics. The high heat and short range corner it into being used like a standard pulse.

You might ask, why not balance with heat? Well, you can't use heat to balance it out instead of range because that won't change the damage profile and if somebody can bring multiples and still shoot you once with the whole lot, that's good enough for normal cover fighting. If you increase heat too far, though, it becomes totally useless precisely because you can't bring multiples. Basically, it becomes a straight-up superior option, exactly what we are trying to avoid. Increasing cool-down will hurt overall DPS, but overall DPS doesn't really determine most fights and it's going to have a lower-than-suggested DPS if you implement the low-cap, high-dissipation anyway.

So, I'm not entirely sure what to do with them. It may turn out that they are an entirely unnecessary addition to the game and nobody will ever use them. I think they would be great options for the Mist Lynx and Gargoyle, but we have to guard against abuse on 'Mechs like the Timber Wolf and Storm Crow. Since these tables are made to work with the current heat system and don't necessarily assume my proposed one is implemented, balancing is all the more perilous.

#16 stuntmahn

    Member

  • PipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 36 posts

Posted 31 May 2015 - 04:19 AM

Good effort, nice read.

Where can I subscribe to your newsletter?

#17 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 31 May 2015 - 04:28 AM

Is it just me, or is nobody familiar with the TROs?

There are lasers on around 80% of teh builds maybe more! And when there are mixed loads most carry 1-3 non lasers and a plethora of lasers 3+

When I'm on the field I see a lot of lasers, some ballistics, and some Missiles... Sound just like what the field should be.

#18 Mystere

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 22,783 posts
  • LocationClassified

Posted 31 May 2015 - 08:15 AM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 30 May 2015 - 09:27 PM, said:

Nobody knows them all, which is part of the point of this thread. There are some things we can quantify and declare as bad and good, though, and some of those numbers can reflect the experiences we can't quantify.

Not trying to address any of it would mean we fail automatically.


Not to denigrate your attempt at balance but, my point is that the sheer amount of variables involved should have been the necessary impetus in considering other balancing methods instead, like Clan vs. IS numbers or faction-dependent victory conditions. But PGI, and many people playing this game, just refuse to do so.

Attempting to solve a 100-dimension problem is not an easy task. It is what I call a fool's errand. It's the kind of problem that needs a different kind of solution, one that thinks outside of the box.

As for my "spreadsheets just ain't gonna cut it" comment, there is a reason why some people create simulations instead, and preferably by running them in massively-parallel supercomputers. ;)

Edited by Mystere, 31 May 2015 - 08:15 AM.


#19 FupDup

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 26,888 posts
  • LocationThe Keeper of Memes

Posted 31 May 2015 - 08:52 AM

I just noticed that most heinous error of all in the original post...no Binary Laser Cannon! :ph34r:

#20 Quicksilver Aberration

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Nightmare
  • The Nightmare
  • 11,809 posts
  • LocationKansas City, MO

Posted 31 May 2015 - 09:51 AM

View PostMystere, on 31 May 2015 - 08:15 AM, said:

Attempting to solve a 100-dimension problem is not an easy task. It is what I call a fool's errand. It's the kind of problem that needs a different kind of solution, one that thinks outside of the box.

So is trying to solve a balance issue by team numbers or faction dependent victories. How overpowered does a tech need to be to counteract the number advantage that the lesser team has or the different victory conditions. Your method of balance is just as convoluted if not more so because the people advantage is a very serious problem that is less contextual than trying to balance equipment through spreadsheet warrior (which is somewhat doable).





7 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 7 guests, 0 anonymous users