38 replies to this topic

[HimseIf]

Yes there is a reason to run a support 'mech. i used to do it with a firestarter with 2 AMS and shoot lasers at things. Don't listen to anyone who tells you that support is no good because it is good. Without it they would be on their own. With heavy rain, most likely. The 2 AMS is helpful, even if they don't know it.

If people don't like support then don't support them, leg them and leave them >

[MrEdweird]

Though I'm not a fan of Appogee's fairly aggressive stance on the matter (nor the generalization that everyone who says they're running a support mech is an idiot), I do agree that sitting behind a hill just to provide ECM cover does not tend to actually do anything particularly useful for your team. I do think that fast mechs that carry AMS, PPCs and other long range weapons can help a team but they must encourage said team to move forward and they must provide firepower.

Since actually killing the enemy is what wins the match, the mechanic in MWO naturally lends itself to the second line or "fire support" type of mech, which is completely viable in my mind. The clearest example I have on hand are the many over 800 damage (sometimes reaching 1200-1300 damage) games in mechs like the AWS-8Q, widely regarded to not be particularly useful.

Well, I play a mech like that by following the atlas. A build like STD300, AMS, 21-22DHS, 3ML, 2LL, 1PPC (more recent quirks have made the AWS much better, this is an example from before the quirks) works really well for this because you can alpha every time anyone brave enough shows their head. In the case of the Awesome, it is one of the best mechs to spread damage in, similar to a Thunderbolt. First your arms go, then your torsos go, then while you're bleeding to death you still do damage using torso/head lasers, depending on the AWS chassis. But it's still a "support" mech purely because it does not lead a charge.

Further bending the definition, you could say that a Cicada is also a support mech, because it does not lead a charge. My X-5, XL300, 4ML, 2SRM6, 13DHS, 3 tons ammo or 2SRM4, 14DHS, 3 tons ammo and full armor is an incredible hit and run mech and also a clan light mech ANNIHILATOR. I use Radar Deprivation, Target Info Gathering, ML Range and SRM Cooldown modules on it with a UAV and Airstrike. It's not as impressive as a fully kitted out SRM4 Huginn, but those SRM4s still eat legs for breakfast. Also, 405m base ML range. It can even do ranged combat and still run around mostly undetected, pop UAV and run away at 133.7 kph. The full armor might sound like a bloat, but with the big bonus to arm armor the X-5 gets and with some training, you'd be surprised how many clan laser vomit alphas my torsos have survived if I angle just at the right time.

So the definition is very broad. If there's 2 ECMs on the other team, yeah, it's difficult for LRM mechs to make themselves useful. But it wasn't always like this. Sometimes, people ignore LRM boats that are in plain sight. I've tried this with a 4xLRM10 King Crab (don't ask). I put it just outside 220m of the enemy right behind the front line and even if there is ECM I just dumbfire the LRMs. I've gotten 800-1000 damage games like this as well.

So yeah, a LRM boat that can find its own targets and put damage down is viable and so is direct fire support and fast attack / skirmisher mechs. Not everything has to be a brawler. I like flanking from high ground with energy mechs like the Sparky, this will also work for the Vindicator. Just stay away from fire and be an opportunistic damage dealer.

Edited by Edweird, 03 June 2015 - 03:16 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Appogee, on 03 June 2015 - 12:34 AM, said:

...which is exactly what I said in my post.

No. My observation in the PUG queue is that people who declare themselves to be in "support mechs" (they even tell you this in chat straight after the drop) typically don't engage. They may be carrying weapons, but they're hiding at the back, 'providing ECM', or 'scouting on ahead' and other things which shouldn't be seen as a replacement for shooting at the enemy.

There was a thread here just last week where a guy was complaining how he'd spent the whole game "hiding behind a mountain providing ECM" and his team had lost. Not surprising when they had 11 or fewer people actually fighting.

We need to remove this "I am in a support Mech so I have an excuse not to engage" thinking from people's minds. The support we most need in our PUG teams is to have all 12 guys engaging the enemy.

As I said in my earlier post... 12 mans are different. 12-mans declare mech and lance roles as part of a broader battle strategy. But that's not what we're talking about above.

Appogee, on 03 June 2015 - 01:08 AM, said:

So you stuck the word 'support' in front of the standard role of 'sniper' and declared yourself to be a 'support Mech'. And you also run BAP and TAG for your own benefit, and the rest of us might get some benefit from it.

Well, that's great ... You may as well invent and trademark the terms "Support Laser Vomit", "Support Brawler" and "Support Skirmisher" if you want. (I ran a AC40 Jager last week. I guess that was a "Support BoomJager"...?)

But all of these strange new terms that you invented have no relevance to the kinds of 'support Mechs' actually being discussed in this thread.

Appogee, on 03 June 2015 - 01:14 AM, said:

And when the MM doesn't, the LRM boat is largely useless and dead weight for your team to carry.

I know this because I very recently tried to level an Orion VA in the PUG queue by making it a LRM boat. I had a few backup weapons, but most of my tonnage was devoted to LRMs. (I carried TAG and BAP and Artemis to try to be as self-sufficient as possible.)

Most matches, that LRM boat VA did not carry its weight for the team. There's too much ECM, too few NARCs, and in my Elo bracket, too many players taking Radar Dep Modules and too smart to stand out in the open taking LRMs. When I converted that VA to SRMs and lasers, my damage and kills at least doubled.

So I don't agree that even LRM boats are valid "support mechs" in the PUG queue.

(Sure if you team up with a NARCer in the group queue, or as part of a 12-man battle strategy, it's a different matter. Then again, I can't remember a time recently when my unit came up against an LRM-heavy 12-man that we couldn't defeat.)

Now if only that's what the OP is talking about.

Also, Snipers ARE SUPPORT MECHS. They are direct fire long range support mechs. Sniper mechs are never in the brawl, meaning they have no direct presence on the front line. They stay on the outskirts, and provide long range suppression, and precision damage.

Also, LRM mechs are pretty valid. Yes, they're not in a good place right now, but they still work, and when they work right, it's a nightmare for the enemy team.


Now here's the main issue:

OP isn't talking about being in a support mech, and hiding, and doing nothing. Not all pilots do that. You have a problem with a specific attitude/approach to the game, and you feel strongly about it, that's fine. It's just that this is not what this topic is about.

Are support mechs valid in the Public queue? Yes they are.

Are bad pilots a problem? Yes they are.

You have a problem with the edge case where both those things intersect, but are generalizing it to include things that shouldn't be included (As someone who plays dedicated support mechs a lot, I can guarantee you that support mechs are valid. Especially when I average out 500 damage or so, with a few kills. I carry my weight)

I'm not going to argue that bad pilots aren't bad. They're awful, and whether they are in an ECM mech, or a top tier meta mech, they're gonna do 20 damage, and die miserably.

[jss78]

I'll also say that I don't actually see these people who supposedly proudly declare themselves as "support mech" pilots, and then sit back doing nothing. And I play low/medium Elo PUG (not sure which), and encounter all flavours of terribad whenever I play, and I'm not convinced that this specific type is out there in any significant numbers.

[Appogee]

IraqiWalker, on 03 June 2015 - 03:21 AM, said:

Snipers ARE SUPPORT MECHS. They are direct fire long range support mechs. Sniper mechs are never in the brawl, meaning they have no direct presence on the front line. They stay on the outskirts, and provide long range suppression, and precision damage.

Ok, so it seems your definition of "support mech" is "any Mech that's not in the brawl". That is certainly a lot of different kinds of Mechs, from 2ERL Raven-3Ls to that Quad Gauss Dire Whale sitting on that hill over there.

We are clearly talking about totally different things, but using the same words.

IraqiWalker, on 03 June 2015 - 03:21 AM, said:

OP isn't talking about being in a support mech, and hiding, and doing nothing.

Festus vanGeck, on 01 June 2015 - 07:17 AM, said:

...I mounted BAP, dual AMS with plenty of ammo, a tag, JJs and some laz0rs on it, and glued myself to the assault lance....

OP didn't say he was hiding and doing nothing, no. But he did say his loadout is "BAP ("support"), "dual AMS with plenty of ammo" ("support"), "a TAG" ("support"), and "some lazors" - 4th priority ... some actual weapons.

So the OP was definitely focused on "supporting" rather than doing a crapton of damage himself. In fact, it was his experience of the pointlessness of this approach which led him - admirably - to pose the question which is the title of his thread.

Festus vanGeck, on 01 June 2015 - 07:17 AM, said:

...the team benefits more from an angry HBK4P lazering limbs off of everything that can't run fast enough, than a Vindi loaded with helpful combat appliances, tea and cookies.

But look! The OP actually came to the same conclusion that I am putting forward, too!

The best "support' anyone can give their PUG team is to shoot the enemy and kill them... not to take a mech to a battle with tons of with "support" equipment, and then faff around during the match standing behind the heavies, trying to provide ECM, dual AMS, TAG, BAP and morale encouragement.

Edited by Appogee, 03 June 2015 - 09:04 AM.

[Appogee]

jss78, on 03 June 2015 - 08:29 AM, said:

I'm not convinced that this specific type is out there in any significant numbers.

I'm not convinced your three months of playing this game infrequently afforded you anywhere near enough experience to credibly contradict the experience of someone who has been playing the game daily for three years, across multiple time zones and about 4000 PUG matches.

Edited by Appogee, 03 June 2015 - 09:05 AM.

[Jody Von Jedi]

I tend to try and bring the most optimal loadout I can with regards to speed, firepower and heat. BAP, TAG, AMS, are all secondary to me. If I have unused weight allotment, I'll throw in one or two of the aforementioned support devices.

With one exception: SSRM based loadouts ALWAYS get BAP. Four or more missile hardpoints with SSRMs and BAP have saved the day for me more than once.

Consumables are a different story. I really like UAVs. A well placed UAV will benefit an attentive team better than any other module I've ever used.

Just my .02

Jody

[oldradagast]

IMHO, a practical support mech is simply one that runs a bit of support equipment and works with the team.

Maybe he has AMS and uses it vs. cramming in an extra weapon or heatsink.

Maybe he has ECM and doesn't run off and "snipe" from a far-away corner, dealing 100 damage per match.

Maybe he has NARC and uses it and tells people at match start to watch for it.

You get the idea. Now, a dedicated "support" mech - as in, "has very few weapons but lots of non-damaging support equipment" - probably won't work unless you have team mates who know what you're doing and can work with you.

[Mazzyplz]

a support mech is a mech that has good firepower, but is not the first one out the door or putting their face on the frontline

boating tag, bap, ams and command console is beyond useless


deploy your uav at the most crucial times and you have fulfilled recon role for your whole team.

only thing left to do is shoot and kill

[Chagatay]

Fun

[Johny Rocket]

Appogee, on 03 June 2015 - 01:08 AM, said:

So you stuck the word 'support' in front of the standard role of 'sniper' and declared yourself to be a 'support Mech'. And you also run BAP and TAG for your own benefit, and the rest of us might get some benefit from it.

Well, that's great ... You may as well invent and trademark the terms "Support Laser Vomit", "Support Brawler" and "Support Skirmisher" if you want. (I ran a AC40 Jager last week. I guess that was a "Support BoomJager"...?)

But all of these strange new terms that you invented have no relevance to the kinds of 'support Mechs' actually being discussed in this thread.

Lol, more of "I rage unless you agree" guy.
I say support sniper because the mechs I play in this position are dual role and I do both jobs.
You want to categories people as all doing something the same which is ridiculous, while i am cover my team with ecm or fire support I snipe my own targets. Or sometimes I'll run off and just purely snipe.

See how easily misunderstandings can be settled by communication. I suggest you work next on what opinions are and stop stating yours as fact.

[Appogee]

Tractor Joe, on 05 June 2015 - 03:23 PM, said:

I say support sniper because the mechs I play in this position are dual role and I do both jobs.
You want to categories people as all doing something the same which is ridiculous, while i am cover my team with ecm or fire support I snipe my own targets. Or sometimes I'll run off and just purely snipe. See how easily misunderstandings can be settled by communication. I suggest you work next on what opinions are and stop stating yours as fact.

I see the whole point of what was being discussed in this thread continues to evade you.

How about you try this:

• read the thread,
  
• see what the OP defined as a 'support Mech'
  (hint: he says he focused on BAP, AMS with plenty of ammo, and TAG),
  
• realise that what the OP defined as "support" and which I responded to has nothing to do with what you are (still) doing on about,
  
• feel embarassed for a moment that you only just realised this,
  
• undertake to read threads before responding to them in future,.
  
• get on with your life.

Tractor Joe, on 05 June 2015 - 03:23 PM, said:

You want to categories people as all doing something the same which is ridiculous, while i am cover my team with ecm or fire support I snipe my own targets.

/facepalm.

No it is you who is trying to equate "support sniping" with "providing TAG and BAP".

Not me. You. Only you.

Tractor Joe, on 05 June 2015 - 03:23 PM, said:

See how easily misunderstandings can be settled by communication.

Actually, no, apparently some people need the same thing communicated to them twice in two different ways before they get it.

Is your misunderstanding settled this time?

Edited by Appogee, 06 June 2015 - 12:02 AM.

[InspectorG]

Festus vanGeck, on 01 June 2015 - 07:17 AM, said:

... so I may have accidentally bought a Vindicator. Feeling that it's not armoured enough and doesn't have the "oomph" I'm looking for, I figured I'd try running it as a support mech. I mounted BAP, dual AMS with plenty of ammo, a tag, JJs and some laz0rs on it, and glued myself to the assault lance.

After losing 6 or 7 games in a row I'm beginning to think that:

A. PUGs can't properly take advantage of a support mech OR
B. I gurgle donkey balls OR
C. The team benefits more from an angry HBK4P lazering limbs off of everything that can't run fast enough, than a Vindi loaded with helpful combat appliances, tea and cookies.

Any thoughts on this?

Supprort in a Pug is not Narc/AMS/etc. Support is either escorting the slow heavies/Assaults or using a light to flank and harass to get the enemy assaults/heavies to redirect fire.

AMS is a waste, i often run support mech. I never use AMS...its a waste of tonnage vs a weapon that can be hard countered with positioning.

KEEP THE BAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why?

People here on the forum dont see the power creep with ECM look at the upcoming releases. IS now has an ECM heavy.
Clan WAVE 3 will add 2 more ECM mechs.
One of which will be the Clan Light SAVIOR!!!!!

Plus BAP allows Streak Boats more opportunities.

Do the math. Get some extra xp/cbills, Let your team press 'R'(yeah...amazing to expect that from a Pug).

TAG if you want to supprort or if you LRM(i dont know if Vindicators can)

For Random Pugging, DAMAGE dealing is the best support but in order of importance:

BAP

TAG(# 1 if you do LRMing)

AMS...just dont.

[DarkMetalBlade]

Though the others have iterated this clearly, I'll point this out to you:

When I build my mechs I go by this:

- Firepower is King & Queen.
- Speed is the Prince & Princess.
- Durability are the peasants & laborers.
- Support electronics outside of ECM are the beggars & harlequins.

If you're in an organized unit, it may very well be a different story...

[Chagatay]

DarkMetalBlade, on 08 June 2015 - 05:18 PM, said:

Though the others have iterated this clearly, I'll point this out to you:

When I build my mechs I go by this:

- Firepower is King & Queen.
- Speed is the Prince & Princess.
- Durability are the peasants & laborers.
- Support electronics outside of ECM are the beggars & harlequins.

If you're in an organized unit, it may very well be a different story...

Interesting analogy but I suppose it could work...

Beggar: Excuse me sir could you spare me a shilling? (aims TAG/NARC at King)
King: Filthy peasant stop touching me with your grubby hands (NARC/TAG)
Prince*: Heh <reaches in his coat and pulls out his dagger (assortment of short range lasers) and/or crossbow (AC/missile weapons) thrusting or shooting thusly into the king's backside as he is completely distracted by the filthy peasant>
King: AHHH Gruggle Gruggle <takes a dirt nap>

*Prince in this case is a rogue-like person but it sorta fits with the whole speed theme

[Rhavin]

I have been running a 4 lrm5 oxide in an attempt to master out my jenners. I hate SRMS which are the only other option so I thought "hey this could be a blast!!" It's not fun, like not at all. The times I have had kills has been by pure accident. I find that targeting mediums and other lights seems to be most effective, heavy and assaults really dont care about 20 missles, neither do lights and mediums but you can often get them to break off a flankING maneuver by sending them a single volley. They scare easier because incoming missles warning doesn't say how many are coming. Still can occasionally pull 300 in a game so I am happy, today was rough for me though lol.

[IraqiWalker]

Rhavin, on 12 June 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

I have been running a 4 lrm5 oxide in an attempt to master out my jenners. I hate SRMS which are the only other option so I thought "hey this could be a blast!!" It's not fun, like not at all. The times I have had kills has been by pure accident. I find that targeting mediums and other lights seems to be most effective, heavy and assaults really dont care about 20 missles, neither do lights and mediums but you can often get them to break off a flankING maneuver by sending them a single volley. They scare easier because incoming missles warning doesn't say how many are coming. Still can occasionally pull 300 in a game so I am happy, today was rough for me though lol.

Have you tried a streakbomber?
OXIDE

You can downgrade the engine to a 280, and up the ammo, while removing FF.

[Barkem Squirrel]

Rhavin, on 12 June 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

I have been running a 4 lrm5 oxide in an attempt to master out my jenners. I hate SRMS which are the only other option so I thought "hey this could be a blast!!" It's not fun, like not at all. The times I have had kills has been by pure accident. I find that targeting mediums and other lights seems to be most effective, heavy and assaults really dont care about 20 missles, neither do lights and mediums but you can often get them to break off a flankING maneuver by sending them a single volley. They scare easier because incoming missles warning doesn't say how many are coming. Still can occasionally pull 300 in a game so I am happy, today was rough for me though lol.

I pull out the Oxide with the 4 LRM 5's when I feel the need to be evil. The engines are normally the 245 XL or now I am testing the 225 XL to carry even more ammo. With 720 missiles I have done 756 damage (one really good arty strike after running out of ammo on two direwolves from behind.) 300 to 400 damage is normal along with running out of ammo. This was done since the change to missile damage to only 1 pt. The speed forces you to stay with or close to the pack, but maintain a 300 m or so distance from the target. I am a firm believer in the LRM range extension, just to make more LRMs hit at closer ranges.

PUG matchs some times are just bad for support mechs everyone is so timid. I do not know how many times I had to force an issue in a LRM boat by using violence of action to make the other team scatter. Yes, that is a LRM boat brawling, firing under decks, tunnels and caves at 200 or so meters or under 300 in the open.

So many people do like to sit in the back sip hot chocolate hit R, acquire lock and fire. LRM boats can be way more effective up close.

Even on mechs without LRMs I like to have a BAP, why it allows me to get many ECM disruptions, but it brings the LRM boats into play, where I can get over 10 spotting assists and some times over 30. That is C-Bills and XP in the bank.

I do prefer the medium LRM boats, but some heavies and assaults are good for the support role and when they out of LRM ammo you have an almost undamaged mech to lead charges and be a meat shield with a few weapons.

It all comes down to how you play the mech. Support, Brawl, snipe. Everyone should be able to do all three or at least two of them, depending on how the fight develops. One thing the LRM support brings into play is more lead on target from over hills or around corners. Then the fear of OMG I'm being LRMed can not be discounted.

[Katus]

My two cents here is that there really is no such thing as a "support mech" or every mech is on the battlefield is a support mech. I see ECM, and AMS as survivability equipment. While TAG, NARC and BAP are offensive enhancement equipment.

Support is more a mindset then a chassis or build. Timidity dose not pay on the battlefield any more then over aggressiveness. I have been very guilty of both sins, sometimes in the same match. Hiding behind a hill with a D-DC and not adding your DPS to the pot is not going to win you very many matches. You would be wasting an assault slot on your team for no gain, your or your team's. After all, the whole point is to rack up damage, assists, kills and component destruction?

KGC-000B

The above King Zoidberg is what I consider to be a "Support Mech". I can make members of the red team move to cover when I start dropping Lurms on them and I can Dakka the snot out of them if I happen to get a LOS on them. Either way, what I need to be doing is supporting my company by making the red team do something other then what they want to do. I.E. racking up damage, getting assists, killing the blue team and wrecking our components.

I didn't bother with a TAG or BAP since while it is helpful for a team mate to press "R" or pack a TAG and/or NARC it is not absolutely critical. I feel that getting locks is really my own responsibility. After awhile it gets to be a bit of an art form picking out the most dangerous red team mechs and making them either die or move to cover. This allows the blue team to focus an enemy mech down or or maneuver for a better shot.

On the subject of TAG and NARC, if you feel the need to use some of your precious tonnage and critical slots on such equipment then I feel it is my duty to make sure you get some CBills for your trouble. If you pack ECM and I am able to keep up with you then I will follow you around the battlefield like a 100 ton Rottweiler and kill anything that even looks in your direction with evil intentions. If I see some poor blue in a circle fight and he hold his lock I will always be happy to send my love in the form of Lurms or Dakka upon his target. Personally I find being shot at with Lurms or AC5/Ultras to be distracting... To paraphrase Bobby Possumcods I don't mind Lurms as long as I am the one DOIN' the Lurmin'...