22 replies to this topic

[Hit the Deck]

How long do you propose its CD should be? And what's the reasoning behind it (how you arrive at that number)?

As it stands now, (c)GR's DPS is nearly as big as a single AC/5's (3.16 for GR vs 3.01 for AC/5). Granted, the GR doesn't spread its 15 damage around and has only one point of heat so it's got 71-88% increase of tonnage to compensate/balance. Not to mention the various adjustments we've got in MWO.

Personally, I don't want its DPS to be nerfed further. In the source material, it's a desired weapon just like the PPC (sadly, it's only the GR in our current state of MWO). IMO it should be something special when your 'mech has the required pod space to mount it. But I'd still like to hear what you have in mind.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Honestly anyone who says we should nerf or change gauss should prove proficiency with it first. Post a video of you being able to be effective with them then tell us why it should be nerfed.

Going to be a short list I think.

[Pariah Devalis]

Hit the Deck, on 02 June 2015 - 08:50 AM, said:

How long do you propose its CD should be? And what's the reasoning behind it (how you arrive at that number)?

As it stands now, (c)GR's DPS is nearly as big as a single AC/5's (3.16 for GR vs 3.01 for AC/5). Granted, the GR doesn't spread its 15 damage around and has only one point of heat so it's got 71-88% increase of tonnage to compensate/balance. Not to mention the various adjustments we've got in MWO.

Personally, I don't want its DPS to be nerfed further. In the source material, it's a desired weapon just like the PPC (sadly, it's only the GR in our current state of MWO). IMO it should be something special when your 'mech has the required pod space to mount it. But I'd still like to hear what you have in mind.

Thing is, it is not a DPS weapon. DPS as a stat with Gauss Rifles is not particularly important - especially when taken in pairs. Its worth is contained entirely within the 15 pinpoint damage, with a huge asset being the low heat of it. Idealy, you poke, shoot, hide, repeat with Gauss, so a DPS race is something that is of little concern.

Personally, I have no problem with the current CD, but even a 1 second longer cooldown would be fine, IMO. That said, I would also like ERPPC given a slightly longer CD, as well, but buffed for higher velocity with IS (ER)PPC and specifically higher pinpoint damage for Clan ERPPC (with reduced or eliminated splash). PPC were supposed to be energy analogies to AC10, ERPPC somewhere between an energy AC 10 and an energy Gauss, and a Clan ERPPC an energy Gauss, with the drawbacks being heat (and, in computer games, long cooldowns in the order of 7 or 8 seconds).

Decreasing the rate of fire of long range weapons, while giving them better usability, allows them to stay valid choices while giving brawling builds a slightly easier time of closing the distance they need to reap the rewards.

Mudhutwarrior, on 02 June 2015 - 08:54 AM, said:

Honestly anyone who says we should nerf or change gauss should prove proficiency with it first. Post a video of you being able to be effective with them then tell us why it should be nerfed.

Going to be a short list I think.

U wot m8? Plenty of more videos there on my channel.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 02 June 2015 - 08:58 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Pariah Devalis, on 02 June 2015 - 08:55 AM, said:

U wot m8? Plenty of more videos there on my channel.

What video card are you using? I can never see as good as what I just saw in your video!

[627]

Pariah Devalis, on 02 June 2015 - 08:55 AM, said:

Thing is, it is not a DPS weapon. DPS as a stat with Gauss Rifles is not particularly important - especially when taken in pairs. Its worth is contained entirely within the 15 pinpoint damage, with a huge asset being the low heat of it. Idealy, you poke, shoot, hide, repeat with Gauss, so a DPS race is something that is of little concern.

Personally, I have no problem with the current CD, but even a 1 second longer cooldown would be fine, IMO. That said, I would also like ERPPC given a slightly longer CD, as well, but buffed for higher velocity with IS (ER)PPC and specifically higher pinpoint damage for Clan ERPPC (with reduced or eliminated splash). PPC were supposed to be energy analogies to AC10, ERPPC somewhere between an energy AC 10 and an energy Gauss, and a Clan ERPPC an energy Gauss, with the drawbacks being heat (and, in computer games, long cooldowns in the order of 7 or 8 seconds).

Decreasing the rate of fire of long range weapons, while giving them better usability, allows them to stay valid choices while giving brawling builds a slightly easier time of closing the distance they need to reap the rewards.





U wot m8? Plenty of more videos there on my channel.

whoa, what kind of elo bracket is that? If i stand in the open like you there, i have like 6 sconds to spectator mode. are those peope even shooting back?

[Pariah Devalis]

Joseph Mallan, on 02 June 2015 - 09:02 AM, said:

What video card are you using? I can never see as good as what I just saw in your video!

GTX 550 Ti with FOV = 90, no depth of field, and no cockpit glass.

627, on 02 June 2015 - 09:16 AM, said:

whoa, what kind of elo bracket is that? If i stand in the open like you there, i have like 6 sconds to spectator mode. are those peope even shooting back?

Same Elo bracket as 228th, Lords, EmC, GK, etc. Reading the situation is important. Also, while I might have appeared to have been in the open, the range brackets favored me, there was ample terrain to back into for LRM blockage, and I used horizontal terrain to eliminate the D-DC, Timber Wolf, and Dire Wolf as potential engagement threats in order to limit my engagement to the Shadowhawk and LRM boats.

Terrain is a powerful god damned ally.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 02 June 2015 - 09:20 AM.

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

leave the gauss alone,atleast clan gauss,its the only decent ballistic clans have atm.

on IS side some non-superquirked chassis variants might benefit from snap fire-gauss,like the Dragon 5N for example.

[Mcgral18]

5 seconds to 5.5 was always my recommendation; it's technically at 4.75 at minimum right now due to the charge.


Another suggestion would be to remove the charge, set cooldown to 5s, and don't allow another Gauss to be fired within a half second to a full second (a tad long) (power drain and such).

Helps single mounts, while dual mounts get a noticeable downside, while still being fairly powerful. Shorter than a laser burn, you can still get both Gauss off in a trade.

0.25s Gauss cooldown increase is minimal.

Edited by Mcgral18, 02 June 2015 - 09:34 AM.

[Voq]

I'm with you 627, I never get away unscathed in my bracket. That enemy team was crazy unresponsive.

[Gas Guzzler]

But if you nerf GRs you nerf my Highlander. Is my Highlander OP?

[Hit the Deck]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 June 2015 - 09:31 AM, said:

But if you nerf GRs you nerf my Highlander. Is my Highlander OP?

Mcgral's suggestion actually helps the HGN.

[Revis Volek]

Hit the Deck, on 02 June 2015 - 09:35 AM, said:

Mcgral's suggestion actually helps the HGN.

But it hurts Dual Gauss builds which must take an XL. Increases face time. I think there should just be NO CHARGE on a single and charge on anything more then one.

Or maybe just cut it down on a single and add charge time as you add GR's. This was it recreates a "power up" so to speak. Takes ,.50 seconds to charge one, .65 for two, etc. Keep the only two at a time firing but increase the charge since your mech has 3 or 4 GR's to charge instead of 1 or 2.

Edited by DarthRevis, 02 June 2015 - 09:40 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

They would need to do it gradually. I know it's a crazy idea, but... gradual changes every other week untill the weapon is balanced. Not months of gathering data followed by a huge change followed by months of gathering data. McGral18 suggest 0.5 second increase. That's a good place to start.

The thing is, the gauss rifle right now is a weapon used by any mech, at any role. People put it on their brawler Atlas, their fast flanking Stormcrow, their slow sniping Jagermech, their LRM Highlander, whatever. The idea isn't to nerf the gauss rifle, the idea is to specialize it. Same as with the charge mechanic. The charge mechanic wasn't really a global nerf, because the charge mechanic is only a major negative in certain situations. In other situations, it hardly matters at all - if you're skilled enough.

Similarly, increasing gauss rifle cooldown won't be a global nerf. It won't matter too much to the dual gauss snipers who pop in and out of cover, because they're rarely firing continously over time anyway. And if they do get in a brawl, they're usually boned anyway. But it will matter to the brawling mechs - and those guys probably shouldn't be equipping gauss rifles in the first place. If we can get more brawlers and flankers to equip AC20s and AC10s or dual UAC5s, that's a good thing for variety.

And don't be talking about your mythical elite bracket. You're all locked in the steering wheel underhive with me, and you know it.

[EvilCow]

I would not mind a cool-down increase because: speed, range, pinpoint damage. DPS is not the whole story.

However the precharge should be removed when the weapon is not mounted in pairs or more.

[happy mech]

gauss can snipe and brawl, you do not need backup weapons, especially dual gauss, just compare its usefulness to dual ac20
to remove its brawling capacity, increase the cd so it cannot be used for dps, i would make it 8 secs
i would also increase ppc cd to 8

[Lightfoot]

Only if they drop the charge-up/de-sync that does not work in any way except to block 80% of MWO players from using the Gauss Rifle.

The charge-up doesn't make it a long range preferred weapon, it makes it a short range preferred weapon where the targets are large and easy to spot the reticule on.

The charge-up forces players to use a 2xGauss config and makes a single Gauss too clumsy to bother with thereby ruining 80-90% of Battle Tech mechs for Gauss use, such as, the Phoenix mechs, Zeus, Highlander, Victor, Orion, Atlas, Banshee, so many more.

The way you make a weapon long range preferred is to give it a longer recharge than a short range weapon of similar design, the AC-20 for instance. You don't give the Gauss the same recharge as the AC-20, that is just naive, or an error.

So, in a sane MechWarrior game you give the Gauss Rifle a 5.25 to 5.75 second recharge if the AC-20 is 4 seconds and call it fair and even, with no charge-up at all. That is all you need to deflect most Gauss shots off an arm and close to short range and that is all the balance you need. Unless you are just in abject fear of the Gauss, which placing a very complex charge-up mechanic on the Gauss surely implies.

Battle Tech Canon says......

"Introduced in 2590 by the Terran Hegemony, the Gauss Rifle utilizes a series of electromagnets to propel slugs of ferrous nickel-iron alloy at extremely high velocities, making it a devastating and lethal long-range weapon. Unlike most traditional ballistic weapons, the Gauss Rifle does not use combustible propellant, so its firing generates very little heat. However, the sheer mass and bulk of the weapon limits its applications.

Since the Gauss Rifle fires solid metal slugs, with neither propellant nor explosive, Gauss Rifle magazines are not susceptible to ammunition explosions. However, if the weapon itself is struck by enemy fire, the capacitors that power the electromagnets will release their stored energy, with an effect similar to an ammo explosion. (In game terms, a critical hit on a Gauss Rifle is equivalent to a 20-point ammo explosion.) Some 'Mechs employ CASE in the section containing the Gauss Rifle to protect internal components in the event the weapon explodes."

.... the Gauss Rifle has no charge-up and that it's capacitors are always charged or charged sooner than the mechanism can load a new round.

Get rid of the apocryphal de-sync and increase the recycle time by .5 to 1 second over the 4.75 seconds it currently has. I want Battle Tech as promised.

Edited by Lightfoot, 02 June 2015 - 10:15 AM.

[Ghogiel]

627, on 02 June 2015 - 09:16 AM, said:

whoa, what kind of elo bracket is that? If i stand in the open like you there, i have like 6 sconds to spectator mode. are those peope even shooting back?

PL are bad.

[Revis Volek]

Lightfoot, on 02 June 2015 - 10:07 AM, said:

Only if they drop the charge-up/de-sync that does not work in any way except to block 80% of MWO players from using the Gauss Rifle.

The charge-up doesn't make it a long range preferred weapon, it makes it a short range preferred weapon where the targets are large and easy to spot the reticule on.

The charge-up forces players to use a 2xGauss config and makes a single Gauss too clumsy to bother with thereby ruining 80-90% of Battle Tech mechs for Gauss use, such as, Phoenix mechs except Shadowhawk, Zeus, Highlander, Victor, Orion, Atlas, Banshee, so many more.

The way you make a weapon long range preferred is to give it a longer recharge than a short range weapon of similar design, the AC-20 for instance. You don't give the Gauss the same recharge as the AC-20, that is just naive, or an error.

So, in a sane MechWarrior game you give the Gauss Rifle a 5.25 to 5.75 second recharge if the AC-20 is 4 seconds and call it fair and even, with no charge-up at all. That is all you need to deflect most Gauss shots off an arm and close to short range and that is all the balance you need. Unless you are just in abject fear of the Gauss, which placing a very complex charge-up mechanic on the Gauss surely implies.

Battle Tech Canon says......

"Introduced in 2590 by the Terran Hegemony, the Gauss Rifle utilizes a series of electromagnets to propel slugs of ferrous nickel-iron alloy at extremely high velocities, making it a devastating and lethal long-range weapon. Unlike most traditional ballistic weapons, the Gauss Rifle does not use combustible propellant, so its firing generates very little heat. However, the sheer mass and bulk of the weapon limits its applications.

Since the Gauss Rifle fires solid metal slugs, with neither propellant nor explosive, Gauss Rifle magazines are not susceptible to ammunition explosions. However, if the weapon itself is struck by enemy fire, the capacitors that power the electromagnets will release their stored energy, with an effect similar to an ammo explosion. (In game terms, a critical hit on a Gauss Rifle is equivalent to a 20-point ammo explosion.) Some 'Mechs employ CASE in the section containing the Gauss Rifle to protect internal components in the event the weapon explodes."

.... the Gauss Rifle has no charge-up and that it's capacitors are always charged or charged sooner than the mechanism can load a new round.

Get rid of the apocryphal de-sync and increase the recycle time by .5 to 1 second over the 4.75 seconds it currently has. I want Battle Tech as promised.

Would be nice to have CASE for the arm that held this on IS mechs as well.

[Yokaiko]

Pariah Devalis, on 02 June 2015 - 09:20 AM, said:

GTX 550 Ti with FOV = 90, no depth of field, and no cockpit glass.

.cfg configs?

[LordBraxton]

I love the Gauss and think it's fine where it's at. I could understand a cooldown penalty for twin gauss though. If dual AC20 gets ghost heat, a twin gauss alpha is essentially just as good, trading 10 damage for massive range and accuracy.