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Reworking Ammo Explosions - What's Wrong With Them, And What Should Be Done


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#1 MuonNeutrino

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 05:00 PM

It is my contention that the current system for handling ammunition explosions does not lead to compelling gameplay and could use significant improvements. In a nutshell, ammo explosions are currently both too rare and simultaneously too devastating when they occur, reducing them from an interesting tactical element to a 'whoops, snake-eyes, you're screwed' diceroll.

As a review, the way ammunition explosions currently work is as follows:
  • Ammo bins have 10 points of HP, like most other items. When the HP on an ammo bin is depleted by crits, or when the location is destroyed, even if the ammo is not, the bin has a 10% chance to explode (the other 90% of the time it is simply ruined).
  • Ammunition explosions deal damage equal to the number of rounds remaining times the explosion damage (which is usually equal to the weapon damage) - e.g. one ton of AC/20 ammo exploding will deal 20*7 = 140 damage.
  • Ammunition explosion damage transfers inwards as usual, but applies only to internals (ignoring armor) and transfers at 100% instead of being reduced.
As a consequence of this, ammunition explosions are uncommon, but almost always spell death for the victim. For example, a ton of AC/20 ammunition in a leg (not an uncommon situation) has only a 20% chance of being struck by any given crit since the actuators act as crit padding, and is therefore unlikely to be actually destroyed by crits (about an 11% chance per shot even when using a weapon capable of delivering at least 10 points of damage in a single hit). Even if it *is* critted, or the leg is blown off, the ammo still only has a 10% chance to explode. However, if that ammo does explode, it will deal 140 points of damage transferring at 100% through the side and center torsos, enough to kill almost any mech in the game.

This does not lead to interesting gameplay. The central goal ought to be that success or failure in combat should revolve around proper tactical choices and mechanical skill on the part of the players. If random elements are involved, they should be as predictable as possible such that players can plan for their occurrence. The ammunition explosion mechanic does not follow this - rather, it simply leads to mechs occasionally dropping dead at the whim of the RNG gods, dictating the outcome of a fight and potentially swinging the tide of a battle purely based on a dice roll of sufficiently low odds that it can't be practically anticipated.

With that in mind, I would propose the following changes to the system:
  • The odds of an ammunition explosion when a bin's HP is depleted by crits is increased to 100%, and a bin's health is reduced to 6 HP.
  • Explosive damage of a single round of ammo is reduced to 1/10th of the ammo's normal weapon damage (e.g. an AC/20 round deals 2 damage instead of 20).
  • Ammunition explosion damage *does not transfer* to other components at all. This also means that ammo doesn't need to explode when a section is destroyed, since the damage wouldn't transfer anyway. (I suppose it can still explode just for the visuals, but it wouldn't affect gameplay.)
  • CASE no longer prevents damage transfer, since that doesn't happen anyway. Instead, CASE functions somewhat like tabletop's CASE II - it redirects damage from the internals to the armor. When an ammo explosion occurs in a CASE-protected component, the internals take 1 point of damage (5 points, for clans) and all remaining damage is transferred to the armor (rear armor specifically, for a torso). Any damage in excess of the armor amount is simply lost. (CASE would also be able to be placed in any component.)
  • Ammunition explosion damage would be able to inflict critical hits, if it can't already. These crits would damage internal components and transfer 15% of their damage to the internal structure as normal. (This occurs regardless of whether or not CASE is equipped.)
The consequences of this are that ammunition explosions become fairly predictable - if a location containing ammo is stripped and damaged, the chances of it cooking off are no longer negligible. This further values player skill in building a mech in terms of crit-padding ammo, understanding ammo use priorities, and correctly estimating the most and least vulnerable storage locations. Conversely, it values player skill in estimating where on an enemy mech ammo is most likely to be stored and the relative odds of causing an explosion. In both cases, ammo explosions are transformed from an almost completely unpredictable 'bolt from the blue' into a tactical element that can be weighed and considered.

Simultaneous with that, ammo explosions are also no longer almost guaranteed instant death. A ton of ammo going off will generally destroy the component on smaller mechs and still inflict serious damage on larger ones (especially if the component is already damaged), but it won't blast through the entire mech almost every time - in other words, ammo explosions now have more than one possible tactical effect. This further adds depth to the process of constructing a mech, since you not only have to weigh the odds of ammo being destroyed when placed in various locations, but also balance that with how crippling it would be to lose the different components in question to an explosion. Similarly, it adds further elements to the tactical considerations about where to shoot, though the same mechanism of considering not only the odds of an explosion, but its effects.

In both cases, this greatly improves ammunition explosions from the perspective of helping provide interesting possibilities and tactical depth to gameplay, rather than simply acting as a finger of god that occasionally removes a mech from the field.

Apart from that, this also improves the role of CASE and 'crit seeking' weapons such as machine guns or flamers. At the moment CASE is rarely used, but with ammunition explosions becoming a much more common occurrence and CASE simultaneously mitigating much more of their damage, it would become a more attractive option when constructing a mech. This system would also give CASE an actual use when equipped on an inner sphere mech that has an XL engine. (Clan mechs, with their automatically-equipped CASE, receive a worse version because otherwise they'd essentially become immune to ammo explosions for free. They currently *are* almost immune to them for free - with the current system this isn't too game-breaking because ammo explosions are so uncommon, but with the new system this would be too big of an advantage.) Similarly, since ammo explosions are now relevant, a crit-seeker's ability to so easily crit out ammo bins would help these somewhat lackluster weapons a bit - it won't really fix them, but it can't hurt.

One balancing element that is a possible concern is that energy weapons are already the dominant meta currently, and making ammo explosions more frequent would also have the effect of further pushing people towards non-ammo using weapons. There are two things that I would consider about this. First, lasers are absolutely terrible at destroying components through critical hits, since they deal their damage in many tiny chunks which each roll to crit individually. This results in crit damage almost always being spread over every item in a component and never critting out any of them. So, energy users will be the least able to take advantage of causing ammo explosions (PPCs are better at critting, but are nowhere near the overall power level or meta status of lasers). Second, it would probably not be amiss to accompany this with another small increase in ammo per ton. Ballistics got an extra 50% over tabletop levels, and I'd increase this to just being doubled (AC20 = 10/ton, etc). LRMs also got a 50% increase, which would go up to 100% (240/ton), and SRMs would go from having the same ammo as on tabletop to having a 50% increase (150/ton). This won't increase ammo explosion damage as most people will still only load about the same number of rounds as before, but they won't have to spend as much tonnage on it, indirectly buffing ammo-using builds. Mechs have always had to cart around rather excessive tonnages of ammo, and this has become especially obvious with the advent of CW, so this would be a good time to correct this.

Edited by MuonNeutrino, 06 June 2015 - 05:17 PM.


#2 aniviron

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 07:45 PM

Less randomness would be nice; I don't know if a 100% chance is a great idea though. I also can't help but feel that removing the damage transfer from the explosion is a bad idea; if the ammo was able to be critted to begin with, the component is not far from gone anyway, which makes the penalty more or less worthless. If that proves to be too much, have the explosion damage scale down by the same amount as weapons fire does when it transfers from one component to the next.

Switch the explosion chance to 50% and keep the damage transfer, then you're cooking with gas.

p.s. someone linked in your reddit thread, at the 5:15 ish mark, bring that back.

Edited by aniviron, 06 June 2015 - 07:45 PM.


#3 MuonNeutrino

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 08:15 PM

The damage transfer could well stay as long as the base explosion damage is still toned down as suggested; without it it is true that significant chunks of damage could often vanish for no reason, which would be a bit odd. Whether the transfer should scale down or not would probably be open to discussion, depending on how dangerous one wishes ammo explosions to be.

I would not want to set the explosion chance to 50%, though. All of the other randomness involved can be influenced in one way or another by the actions of the players. The odds of an ammo bin being struck can be affected by where it is placed and with how many other items around it. The attacking player can choose to mount weapons that are better at critting out items, such as 'crit seekers' or weapons that do larger amounts of damage per shot and thus will knock out an item with a single crit, and can choose where to shoot the mech if he wishes to try to find ammo. But a simple flat chance for an ammo bin to explode on destruction cannot be affected - even if the attacker does everything right to maximize his odds, half of the time he'd be denied based on a simple RNG roll that he can't affect in any way. If it seems that a 100% chance to explode would make ammo explosions too dangerous, I'd rather reduce their power in some other way (such as having any damage transfer scale down) that would not rely on randomness.

And yeah, I don't understand why the ammo explosion VFX/SFX went away either, they should definitely come back.

Edited by MuonNeutrino, 06 June 2015 - 08:16 PM.


#4 Spleenslitta

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Posted 07 June 2015 - 11:30 AM

I like the idea. But there is one thing that must also be added. Ammo explosions due to very high heat levels.
I want this because it would make us more aware of heatlevels rather than alpha like crazy at all times.
It would go some way to lower the amount of boats in the game for sure.

#5 Robomomo2000

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Posted 07 June 2015 - 12:17 PM

View Postaniviron, on 06 June 2015 - 07:45 PM, said:

p.s. someone linked in your reddit thread, at the 5:15 ish mark, bring that back.


WHY WOULD THEY EVER REMOVE THAT?! Stuff like that is what makes it more cool and immersive!

#6 KhanCipher

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Posted 07 June 2015 - 04:53 PM

100% ammo explosion chance, and lowering ammo bin hp to 6 from 10 is a pretty awful idea when you actually think about it in relation to current clan/IS balance. For starters clan mechs, they can just choose to continue using Gauss Vomit or do Laser Vomit, while avoiding all ammo that explodes. On the other side of the coin, how many IS variants do you know that can get away with using energy only? And what about the IS variants that don't have any energy hardpoints to speak of like the CPLT-A1, CPLT-C4, CN9-AH, SHD-2H, KCGs, AS7s, and many more IS mechs are going to be more effected by ammo explosion/hp/mechanic related changes than any clan mech would be (except for the Vulture).





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