87 replies to this topic

[bad arcade kitty]

>I compliment my team in team chat with "well played" or "gg" when we win

this

gg is for team chat only imo, not for all chat

[Ultimax]

stjobe, on 07 June 2015 - 04:45 AM, said:

A 5-1 ice hockey game can still be a "good game" - a 12-0 roflstomp in MWO cannot.

If that 5-1 game was a stomp, they still line up and shake hands.

They line up and shake hands no matter how good or bad the game actually was.

[Bishop Steiner]

stjobe, on 07 June 2015 - 04:45 AM, said:

Oh do **** off Bishop. I compliment people who kill me with "good shot" or "well played [whoever killed me]", I compliment the enemy team with a "well played OPFOR" if they beat us in a well-fought game, I compliment my team in team chat with "well played" or "gg" when we win, or "good effort" if we lose but played well, but I would never stoop so low as to call out "gg" to a losing team on a stomp.

It's not sportsmanship, it's just bad form.

Hmmm....some rather nice irony to talking about bad form, here. And insightful perhaps? YOU consider it bad form, as do some gamers. Others do it to be {Richard Cameron},. And others do it specifically because they have a nice quaint anachronistic view, apparently, of sportsmanship. Yet of course, it must only be bad form, right?

The opening of your post was bad form, and highly indicative of the mindset and manners of the modern player I suppose. So again, unlike you, apparently, I am not going to get my knickers in a twist and go on a little rant.

But next time I say "GG", and you feel like screaming invective and otherwise acting like a petulant child? That's a you problem. But feel free to be pissed off and cuss me out in chat if it makes you feel better.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 07 June 2015 - 05:10 AM.

[KuroNyra]

stjobe, on 07 June 2015 - 04:45 AM, said:

Oh do **** off Bishop. I compliment people who kill me with "good shot" or "well played [whoever killed me]", I compliment the enemy team with a "well played OPFOR" if they beat us in a well-fought game, I compliment my team in team chat with "well played" or "gg" when we win, or "good effort" if we lose but played well, but I would never stoop so low as to call out "gg" to a losing team on a stomp.

It's not sportsmanship, it's just bad form.

In sport, let's say, in Football or Rudby, even when one team got stomped, they still shank hands congratulating (exception made for the guys who prefer to insult and rage. Maybe like you?)

Here, it's the same.

I'll say GG to the ennemy team even if they got stomped because they at least tried to do something and even if they lose, they still deserve to be congratulated.

But appararently, being good sport is being a d!ck for you.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 07 June 2015 - 04:50 AM, said:

If that 5-1 game was a stomp, they still line up and shake hands.

They line up and shake hands no matter how good or bad the game actually was.

The issue?

Gamers, for the most part, are not used to actual real world interaction, as part of the "Game". It's amazing how many people who acted like utter DBags over comms and chat in Closed Beta and such, when I met them face to face, at the launch event, had a totally different demeanor.

In part because most people have that epiphany that their actions actually can have "IRL" consequences. Something the anonymity of gaming online shields one from. Whereas the nature of sports, is face to face, and while I've played street ball where people got real testy, common sense usually kicks in before things get out of hand. And any type of regulated sports, it's standard, basically a sign that you have left the game on the field, and want to show respect for your opponent, no matter the result, for at least showing up and trying.

But apparently, these are concepts the modern gamer cannot grasp or accept. Sadly, our society, due to the nice anonymity of online and social media acting as a buffer to what would face to face probabyl result in a buttwhooping, seems to keep descending into ill manners and being angry all the time, with little or no real provocation.

Paints a delightful picture for the future.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 07 June 2015 - 05:03 AM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 June 2015 - 05:02 AM, said:

The issue?

Gamers, for the most part, are not used to actual real world interaction, as part of the "Game". It's amazing how many people who acted like utter DBags over comms and chat in Closed Beta and such, when I met them face to face, at the launch event, had a totally different demeanor.

In part because most people have that epiphany that their actions actually can have "IRL" consequences. Something the anonymity of gaming online shields one from. Whereas the nature of sports, is face to face, and while I've played street ball where people got real testy, common sense usually kicks in before things get out of hand. And any type of regulated sports, it's standard, basically a sign that you have left the game on the field, and want to show respect for your opponent, no matter the result, for at least showing up and trying.

But apparently, these are concepts the modern gamer cannot grasp or accept. Sadly, our society, due to the nice anonymity of online and social media acting as a buffer to what would face to face probabyl result in a buttwhooping, seems to keep descending into ill manners and being angry all the time, with little or no real provocation.

Paints a delightful picture for the future.

Agreed, Years back in an online forum the biggest badarses were always on the attack. They had a meet up and I saw they were the biggest dweebs and suddenly well mannered. I used to be a bouncer part time and it was fun to see how little crap I got after and how the little baddies were now my best buds. The big forum badarses here are most likely the same.

[xWiredx]

gg is something to be used when it was a good fight despite the game being a 12-0 stomp or not (because yes, sometimes matches that end 12-0 were in fact good fights). That's pretty much what it boils down to for me.

[Domoneky]

I've always been a fan of "ggsecured"

[1453 R]

While I'm enjoying* reading you insult everyone who never played Little League as a kid, Bishop, I do have to point out that regulated, organized sports events and a ten-minute online video game match with total strangers aren't as directly comparable as many like to think.

I've largely resigned myself to the half-dozen 'gg' at the end of any given game, but they're not a matter of sportsmanship to me. You mentioned that the post-game handshake is a way of ensuring that the game is left on the field, regardless of outcome? Well, a MWO match does that by default. There's no real rivalry or potential for bitterness there; by the time you're in your next match you've largely forgotten all about the last one unless it was particularly excellent or egregious, at which point I feel like proper congratulations are in order, for the former, or a nice deep dark pit for the latter.

Gamers are not athletes. Some people are both, but for the most part the two spheres rather specifically don't cross. There's no set-in-stone code of conduct enforced on the game, other than the ToS. Those who insist on 'gg' at the end of every match and who denigrate everyone who rolls their eyes as bad, selfish, unsporting ****** are, frankly? Just as guilty as the people they're denigrating.

'gg' means nothing. There's nothing to it. You hit four keys and you have accomplished 100% of required Sportsmanship Points for the match. it is not even remotely comparable to a post-game handshake because it requires no engagement or even acknowledgment. You're not looking your opponent in the eyes, physically grabbing his meathunk, and saying the words "Good game, thanks for the match" to his face, the way a proper sportsman does at the end of a proper sporting match. That requires you to actually mean 'good game', or at least man up, put your big boy face on, and pretend for the sake of being a good player. You don't get to half-ass a post-game handshake in a real-world event.

'gg' requires you to throw two letters at opponents before leaving as fast as you can to maximize earnings/hour. I'm not going to call it half-assed because that's giving it too much credit. It's not even a quarter of an ass. It's a rote little ritual certain gamers have attached more meaning than is warranted to, but it doesn't require you to acknowledge anything. You don't have to look your opponent in the eye, you don't have to shake his hand, you don't have to do anything.

To me, sportsmanship is going the extra mile to be the sort of competitor your opponent looks forward to playing against again in the future. There is no extra mile whatsoever in 'gg'. It's a convenient balm for some people to throw out so they can tell themselves they're being good sports with an absolute minimum of invested effort. Now, most of them aren't being bad sports when they do so - but I'm not going to stand here and listen to people heap abuse on folks who don't particularly like or agree with 'gg'.

I've given up being actively cheesed over it, but it does make me roll my eyes, and it has never once evoked a sense of sporting pride in me. If it means something to you, great. Do it up, enjoy yourselves. But please do quit using it as a bludgeon on perfectly reasonable people who have no pretensions of being athletes and would prefer to not get a half-dozen 'gg' at the end of a three-minute 12-0 crushfest.

It really, truly is nothing but salt in the wounds, guys. Whatever your intentions, the reality is that you just humiliated a dozen people who would like to simply move on with their day. Why not let them, hm?

[ArchAngelWC]

Novakaine, on 06 June 2015 - 10:34 PM, said:

Sad, but true.
Cowboy up my friends

Well eh they do have a solution...like every generation of Americans when offended or unable to understand something...shoot at it...if it shoots back...offer it money

[Lunatic_Asylum]

I think "gg" might be considered a mild insult. It is an apotheosis of indolence and ignorance, as it is both a solecism and an extremely lazy initialism.
That even ruder than saying "Ta!" to a government official giving you a medal.
If one wishes to state his idea, he will write it.
The butchered "gg" is nowhere close to "This was a good game!" and, furthermore, it may imply sarcasm and irreverence.

The same can be said about "glhf" statements that only exasperate everyone on the battlefield.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

This is only going to be semi-coherent, largely because my train of thought tends to meander at the best of times, but also because it's fething hot where I live right now and I'm not good friends with high temperatures.

I don't think it quite as important how much effort it is to put 'gg' in all chat at the end of the game. Much more significant is whether you're doing it intentionally or out of habit.

Habitual 'gg' doesn't mean anything and should probably be ignored, but there's really no way to discern this over the internet when you have no actual perception of the other person who's typing it in. That creates sort of a quandary in and of itself- should you care or should you not care? If you should treat it as intentional, then you should care, in which case it will always matter. If you should treat it as habitual, then you shouldn't care, in which case it won't ever matter.

I'd say to use judgement to discern, but there's nothing to actually base that judgement on, so it's impossible to do so. Thus, we're kind of all stuck with the all-or-nothing approach.

In order to treat it as a sportsmanship thing, it has to be treated as though it matters, in which case we're treating it as always intentional.

This means that a 'gg' at the end of a difficult contest is a good thing- each person typing it is acknowledging that the other side put up a good fight and an engaging experience was had. This is a good thing.

Using it at the end of a stomp has connotations, though.

If one side thoroughly rolls over the other side, and someone on the losing side puts up a 'good game', then it's hard for that to mean something derogatory- the winning side clearly was doing something very right, whatever it was, by comparison to the losing side. I suppose it could be used in a 'Oh, yeah, your game was so great with you using overpowered garbage' and so on from there, but I really doubt anyone would every signify that with 'gg'- they'd either not bother saying anything to the OPFOR and snarl about it aloud/on the forums, OR they'd type something actually vitriolic. So there's no really big problem there.

If the person typing 'gg' is on the winning end of a thorough kerbstomping, though, that's where problems start.

I'm not typically cynical, I think of myself as a pragmatist (I don't care if the glass is half full or half empty, it's how much water I've got and I'm gonna drink it and then move on). However, I've also been wandering around all parts of the internet for the better part of two decades.

Gamers in general come in many flavors, and within the community for any given game, you're going to have toxic people. It's really not escapable, any more than having some people who're overdramatic about the value of a given game/movie/book/show/etc. within its fandom, or having some members of any given religion who're exceptionally toxic about people that aren't of that religion, and so on and so forth.

Unfortunately, toxic people tend to be among the most outspoken people. They're definitely not the whole and probably not even the majority of the outspoken people within a community, but they're some of the louder ones.

This means that a portion of the people who type in 'gg' at the end of a stomp on the winning team are actually being sarcastic. Given that MWO is very far from the first competitive game to have ingame communication during or post match with the OPFOR, players are naturally going to look back at their prior experiences and knowledge of other players' prior experiences playing such games.

Unfortunately, a lot of previous games of various sorts are exceptionally full of toxic loudness, because of the nature of toxic people and toxic loudness- people who are not themselves toxic or inclined to be toxic tend to move away from such toxicity, reducing the remaining player base over time into a pool of radioactive verbal garbage the likes of which is rarely seen in any other environment.

There's always another game similar, there's not always another well-developed fantasy novel
series or television show or political group or religion with the same core nature. This makes it a lot easier and a lot faster for the playerbase of a given game to become the emotional and verbal equivalent of a nuclear waste storage facility.

This creates the unfortunately relatively reasonable expectation that someone on the winning side of a stomp communicating 'good game' is being sarcastic, and without any form of vocal tone or visual refutation or confirmation, that's where the perception defaults.

That, in turn, is only exacerbated by the willingness to shorten 'good game' to 'gg', implying (even if people don't acknowledge it) that the message wasn't important enough to actually spend the time typing seven extra characters to make it complete.

Additionally, if it's important enough to be a good sport, it's important enough to do so sincerely. Yes, the message may be lost on your opponent when they log out of the match before they can read it, but the point of good sportsmanship is not and should not be to show other people that you are a good person. Good sportsmanship is about being a good person. So type the whole message anyways, because what's important is that you're doing it, not that someone else sees you doing it. Or decide that it's not important enough to do and don't do it to begin with.

Personally, I'm never bothered by 'gg' until and unless it's coming from someone on the winning side of a stomp. At that point, I definitely wouldn't define myself as 'offended'- but I do get mildly annoyed.

Largely because I have to decide between three things at that point:

• Conclude that the 'gg'-er is attempting to be a good sport.
  
• Conclude that the 'gg'-er is being sarcastic and mocking and I should be wary of them.
  
• Conclude that the 'gg'-er has no idea what actually constitutes a good game.

And I often haven't got the info to come to one or another of those conclusions, at which point I am then having to disregard that they said 'gg' at all, in which case oh look there's unnecessary meaninglessness cluttering up my consciousness. It's not a big annoyance, something on the level of having a moth flutter around one's head while trying to focus, but it's still an annoyance.

I think there was something else I was going to say here, but I lost it, so here's a walrus.



In conclusion, I tend to agree more with Laser than with Bishop here, mostly on the count of 'if it matters, you should go to the trouble of actually being a good sport all the way rather than trying to claim you are one via minimal rote effort', although Bishop has a good point in that actual good sportsmanship should be encouraged rather than automatically assumed to be sarcasm instead.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 08 June 2015 - 10:35 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

1453 R, on 07 June 2015 - 11:11 AM, said:

Insight

Hmmmm. And perhaps that is the crux of the problem?

Sports teach cooperation, camaraderie, teamwork, discipline, the value of hard work. How to overcome adversity, and more importantly deal with losing. All attributes that are all too often lacking in "E-Sports" culture. And those traits lead to a concept called sportsmanship.

sorry you take it as a personal insult that some "big bad jock" says that many of today's Gamers need to man up a little, but I ain't the one taking affront to a harmless couple of letters and soiling my panties over it. So really, where lies the problem, the people who in good faith give a simple salute acknowledging their opponent, or the people who assume it's mockery and insulting?

I do apologize if this comes off as short and harsh, but this whole concept of of it being insulting? You guys really need to have more respect for yourselves, if a couple letters in a game are going to send people into tirades and tizzies. The sheer amount of energy people spend on all forms of social media LOOKING for reasons to be offended, the childish tantrums grown adults have over video games, the complete unwillingness to be agreeable, and always assume the worst.... SMH.

Makes me wish we could get knocked back to the stone age. Maybe some good old fashioned non First World Problems would wake people up.

I've actually tried to be respectful and explain to you Gamers Elite that some of us aren't looking to hurt your feelings. I'm sure I've stepped over the line here on this post, but really, I don't care anymore.

Good Game? Whatever. Go be butt hurt people, if that's your inclination. Just leave me out of it.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 08 June 2015 - 11:56 AM.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 June 2015 - 11:54 AM, said:

I've actually tried to be respectful and explain to you Gamers Elite that some of us aren't looking to hurt your feelings.

I think that this is the primary issue here- some aren't, but some are, and if the environment follows established pattern, those who are are in the majority. Which creates the ensuing conflict that is more or less what this thread has become about. Although what elite has to do with this I don't follow.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 08 June 2015 - 01:21 PM.

[1453 R]

The point, methinks, is not so much "I have a right to be offended!" as it is the fact that 'Gamers™' do not have any sort of uniform training or culture. There isn't a decades-long history of high school Counter Strike coaches beating 'gg at the end of a match, maggots!' into young, developing gamers' heads. Without that unifying frame of reference, there's no real reason that the "'gg' is a sign of good sportsmanship and should be respected" people are any more or less right than the "'gg' is an immature snipe leveled by smug ******** and I wish they'd stop" people.

I won't get into details, but my first experience with/exposure to 'gg' was overwhelmingly negative, to the point where it honestly took me a good few years to realize that an unironic, unsarcastic usage of the term was even possible. It had been my understanding that the 'ggclose' usage of 'gg' was the de facto internet standard. I've since learned better, but I remain largely incapable of associating 'gg' with "good game". It takes active effort for me to pause my mental processes long enough to not assume the 'close' appended to the end of any given 'gg'.

In an organized sporting league that would've been impossible. Any coach who taught his players to be smug snakes when shaking the losing team's hands would have been run out of town, and rightly so. But the nature of the Internet means that you just can't assume that sort of background or upbringing with people, or that people who do have that background/upbringing equate it to 'gg' the way you do.

I really dislike 'gg' and honestly am on the side of the divide that wouldn't miss it if it vanished forever, but I've also played in competitive TCG tournaments and similar tabletop hobbies for over half my life. Still would be if there was a card shop within a hundred miles of me, for that matter. Whenever I'm at the table I'm laughing, joking, cracking wise and uncorking the smiles, doing whatever it takes for both me and my opponents to have a good time. I'll shake the other guy's hand at the end of a card match if that's what he likes, but I've encountered at least half a dozen players at the table who really don't like being touched. They'd usually still shake your hand if you insisted on it, but it was obvious they had to screw themselves up to do it. They hated anyone touching their cards, dice, counters, or other paraphernalia, and usually refrained from touching your stuff in turn out of politeness.

Some folks insisted on 'Sportsmanship!' and forced those players to shake hands despite their obvious discomfort. It was more common than not with female players, actually, especially as some of the men forcing them to shake hands were well over twice their size and looked straight out of a Creepy Sex Offender story. Now, anyone who actually knew those guys knew better, but a lady fresh in the shop with no idea? I never blamed them for being nervous. Me? I just smiled, gave them a wave and a smile, and said "Thanks for the game, good luck in the rest of the day!"

That's sportsmanship to me. Inflexible requirements unable to adjust to what works best for the players at hand can be just as destructive as the full on douchetrolls. They don't mean to be, and the good ones will usually catch themselves, at least in person, but it's a thing I've seen. I don't really mean to rag on the side of the divide that sees 'gg' as an honorable closing to a match, and outside of flares of anger over a particularly nasty example of the 'ggclose' usage I imagine nobody else is, either.

We'd just like the same consideration for our stance that you're asking us to extend to you. Is that such a horrible thing to request?

[BarHaid]

Well, I think I've learned a bit here, from both sides. No more acronyms. I'm going personalize my end of round with a full sentence that I copy/paste every time. Much more personal that way.

[Bishop Steiner]

1453 R, on 08 June 2015 - 01:29 PM, said:

We'd just like the same consideration for our stance that you're asking us to extend to you. Is that such a horrible thing to request?

Easiest way to achieve that? Not throw a fit if some unwitting Internet Naif throws a well meaning "GG" out there. Heck if goading people and mockery WAS the intent? Reacting to it gives the troll exactly what they look for.

IDK, maybe I just can't grasp the PoV. To me it's like the Smoker who insists on his "right to smoke" ignoring everyone else's "Right not to inhale carcinogenic fumes". Both, in theory, have a right, but only one side is actively causing harm by exercising it. So to, to my outlook, the GG thing. Yes you have a right I suppose to be offended, if someone is a Dbag. But by assuming everyone is, and making a big deal out of it, it's you (the offended) who has taken the role of aggressor.

Just my 2ct.

And for the record, there are plenty of poor sports IN sports. But face to face, it's a little more effort to act out on it. Though watching baseball games, it seems that things are trending toward the "me first" gaming culture, than the sporting culture. Probably in part due to all the gaming, but more so to the fact that there is no "Amateur" Sports anymore. If you are any good, it's big business now, and so that entitlement from being groomed I guess, also adds to it.

Guess I'm old fashioned. Just sick of how this society today looks for excuses to be offended.

BarHaid, on 08 June 2015 - 02:31 PM, said:

Well, I think I've learned a bit here, from both sides. No more acronyms. I'm going personalize my end of round with a full sentence that I copy/paste every time. Much more personal that way.

"I'd say Good Game, but you would simply be offended, so instead may I simply say You Suck, are Bad and should feel Bad, so that your inevitable ire is justified?"

hmmmmmm.... I gotta get a macro for that.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 08 June 2015 - 02:35 PM.

[1453 R]

You and I are mostly just going to have to agree to disagree, Bishop. I can see your point, I’m fairly sure you can see mine, but we’re both starting to just talk around the other in circles. Heh, no sense doing that dance. Besides which, for all your old-man crustiness I know you mean well, so you’re not really at fault in this mess anyways. Ya codger

This, on the other hand, I am about to have a great deal of fun with:

BarHaid, on 08 June 2015 - 02:31 PM, said:

Well, I think I've learned a bit here, from both sides. No more acronyms. I'm going personalize my end of round with a full sentence that I copy/paste every time. Much more personal that way.

Fabulous job of proving my point completely, my good sir. You’re put out that people are denigrating ‘gg’ as being a meaningless automatic reflex and lessening its importance as a Sportsmanship Points generator, and so your response is…an automatic reflex set up in macro form.

How many more ways do I have to type it out, dude? Automatic reflexes are bad. They defeat the point. They have no meaning. They have no purpose. They are not Sportsmanship™. If you can’t be assed to put some meaning or effort into your ‘gg’ – whether that is an actual ‘gg’, or whether it’s a “good game chums, much appreciated!” tied to a c/p macro – THEN DON’T FRICKIN’ BOTHER WITH A ‘GG’.

I don’t think anything less of people who don’t ‘gg’ at the end of a match. I don’t think less of people who ‘gg’ from a conscious decision to try and be good sports, though as I’ve laid out I believe those folks to be somewhat misguided in their good intentions. I do think less of folks who just throw ‘gg’ out there as a habit with no meaning or impact behind it because they’re cheapening and distorting the efforts of folks who’re trying to actually be good sports. As Crobat said, I’m forced to treat every ‘gg’ I see as either sarcasm or meaningless clutter because the vast majority of ‘gg’s out there are just exactly that. The entire thing has been reduced to a mockery of itself that nobody can buy into or believe anymore, precisely because of folks like you who don’t give a crap about it either way.

Take that attitude and shovel it, Haid. I would tremendously rather you say nothing at all than throw even the politest piece of pre-recorded drivel at me. If you just cannot bring yourself to mean whatever you say post-match, then say nothing.

You’ll be doing us all a favor.

[BarHaid]

Wow, my first troll! I feel so proud!

The whole copy/paste line was supposed to be humor. Not the first time I've been too obtuse. It is good to know that you have strong convictions, sir.

[Sizzles]

/super serious/ I think we need to bring back public hangings. Somebody gets offended? Hang all parties involved.

People will suddenly stop being offended by things. /super serious/