332 replies to this topic

[Gremlich Johns]

Mycrus, on 15 August 2015 - 06:09 AM, said:

expect 2022 then... hope the funding reaches that long... I hear they are having AC in F2P weekend.. I wonder why...

ps. CR said they had 1 year of development even before kickstarter... so by that token... we are 4 years in (World of Warcraft development time)... and we don't even have a game to show for it...

SC will go down in history as the biggest failscam in gaming.

Hot on the heels of Gamescom 2015 (that's why the password is "gamescom2015")
http://www.pcgamer.c...y-this-weekend/


Already there is more to see than most recent games have at launch. The Gamescom demos show that the development is farther along than most of us more positive backers imagined. Social module this month, Star Marine module by the end of September. Sq42 may be in Beta by the end of the year and many of us backers are looking at the end of 2016 for SC. The multi-crew demo alone is just one indication that the negative point of view might just well be erroneous. Even he who should not be named has backed off somewhat in his condemnation of CR and CIG. Not much, but you can tell he was shaken.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 15 August 2015 - 07:06 AM.

[Mycrus]

Gremlich Johns, on 15 August 2015 - 07:02 AM, said:

Hot on the heels of Gamescom 2015 (that's why the password is "gamescom2015")
http://www.pcgamer.c...y-this-weekend/


Already there is more to see than most recent games have at launch. The Gamescom demos show that the development is farther along than most of us more positive backers imagined. Social module this month, Star Marine module by the end of September. Sq42 may be in Beta by the end of the year and many of us backers are looking at the end of 2016 for SC. The multi-crew demo alone is just one indication that the negative point of view might just well be erroneous. Even he who should not be named has backed off somewhat in his condemnation of CR and CIG. Not much, but you can tell he was shaken.

wake me up when arena commander actually works as anything more than a tech demo...

that's before they spin-up other modules and try to 'integrate'... the hardest part of any IT project is integration... add in a cryengine implementation so heavily modified that it probably crosses into bespoke / multiple studios in multiple geographies / nepotism /core changes in leadership team... red flag everywhere...

throw in a mansion / a Porsche / private jet flights / personal chef... it's clear as day that CR is way over his head and without somebody that can control him this project is going **** up...

[Iqfish]

Mycrus, on 15 August 2015 - 06:09 AM, said:

ps. CR said they had 1 year of development even before kickstarter... so by that token... we are 4 years in (World of Warcraft development time)... and we don't even have a game to show for it...

LOLOLO come on seriously?

okay first of all: They worked 1 year on the trailer. Thats the bengal model, the hornet model, the vanduul ships and the cinematics. The only thing you could take away from that is the models.
He said that they worked just on that trailer with a few people.

Also, they never said the game will be done in nov 2014. It was estimated. Thats something else than saying "CW will arrive in the next 90 days" in 2013.

The game has a lot to show already and the recent leaks have shown that they have a LOT more done than what we can directly see. Thats good and they never said they will show everything and a lot is going on behind the scenes.

You can get the full game, access to all Beta, Alpha and pre Alpha with 40$. This eliminates all the 1000$ Ship ********.
Arena commander works perfectly fine on my machine and even runs well in 1440p and is a lot of fun with friends.

Last thing: There are a lot of big names connected to the project. I don't just mean Chris and Erin Roberts, the whole Frankfurt studio has ex-Crytek employees with well known names, one of them held a speech at my university.
Their concept artists are also well known. These people would not join a bloatware project.

And honestly: If you count it all together, I am sure PGI has earned at least a third of the funding Star Citizen recieved and we all know how well this game is developed.

TL;DR: argue with sense, please

Edited by Iqfish, 15 August 2015 - 07:33 AM.

[Mycrus]

Iqfish, on 15 August 2015 - 07:32 AM, said:

LOLOLO come on seriously?

okay first of all: They worked 1 year on the trailer. Thats the bengal model, the hornet model, the vanduul ships and the cinematics. The only thing you could take away from that is the models.
He said that they worked just on that trailer with a few people.

Also, they never said the game will be done in nov 2014. It was estimated. Thats something else than saying "CW will arrive in the next 90 days" in 2013.

The game has a lot to show already and the recent leaks have shown that they have a LOT more done than what we can directly see. Thats good and they never said they will show everything and a lot is going on behind the scenes.

You can get the full game, access to all Beta, Alpha and pre Alpha with 40$. This eliminates all the 1000$ Ship ********.
Arena commander works perfectly fine on my machine and even runs well in 1440p and is a lot of fun with friends.

Last thing: There are a lot of big names connected to the project. I don't just mean Chris and Erin Roberts, the whole Frankfurt studio has ex-Crytek employees with well known names, one of them held a speech at my university.
Their concept artists are also well known. These people would not join a bloatware project.

And honestly: If you count it all together, I am sure PGI has earned at least a third of the funding Star Citizen recieved and we all know how well this game is developed.

TL;DR: argue with sense, please

hey you want to set a different standard for CIG and CR than what we have asked from PGI then that is your call... I ain't going there... I call BS where I see it... but please do white knight for SC on some insignificant part of the internet

[Iqfish]

Mycrus, on 15 August 2015 - 07:46 AM, said:

hey you want to set a different standard for CIG and CR than what we have asked from PGI then that is your call... I ain't going there... I call BS where I see it... but please do white knight for SC on some insignificant part of the internet

This is pretty much the most insignificant subforum I could think of, löl

Edited by Iqfish, 15 August 2015 - 07:50 AM.

[Gremlich Johns]

fan video using CIG footage and in-game footage from players in AC

https://youtu.be/P41fubCUhrA

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 15 August 2015 - 08:17 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Mycrus, on 15 August 2015 - 06:09 AM, said:

expect 2022 then... hope the funding reaches that long... I hear they are having AC in F2P weekend.. I wonder why...

ps. CR said they had 1 year of development even before kickstarter... so by that token... we are 4 years in (World of Warcraft development time)... and we don't even have a game to show for it...

SC will go down in history as the biggest failscam in gaming.

Honestly, the biggest problem is that CR has low impulse control when it comes to feature creep. He always wants to make things bigger and better, but if you keep moving the goal post further and further, you will never reach it.

Marack Drock, on 15 August 2015 - 06:30 AM, said:

After being shafted by a company that had more funding for their game than any of those MMO's.... I think someone is just pocketing the money and development is ****. Also everyone just for your knowledge Elite Dangerous was announced the same year. It was released this year. It is also ******* awesome. If a company that has the world's most profitable kickstarter (Elite Dangerous was funded via kickstarters) is doing this terribly at making a game with a budget higher than Elite Dangerous then, I think it is safe to say that these guys are just shafting us.

Elite Dangerous also had more work done on it, before it's announcement. Not to mention that the only reason it was released so early, was because they scrapped the offline section of the game.
Hell, Fallout 4 was announced this E3, and is gonna be released in November. That doesn't mean they haven't been working on it since NEW VEGAS.

[Sizzles]

IraqiWalker, on 15 August 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:

LOGIC

[Mycrus]

IraqiWalker, on 15 August 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:

Honestly, the biggest problem is that CR has low impulse control when it comes to feature creep. He always wants to make things bigger and better, but if you keep moving the goal post further and further, you will never reach it.


Elite Dangerous also had more work done on it, before it's announcement. Not to mention that the only reason it was released so early, was because they scrapped the offline section of the game.
Hell, Fallout 4 was announced this E3, and is gonna be released in November. That doesn't mean they haven't been working on it since NEW VEGAS.

Do i believe that CR + wife + family set out to scam people from the get go... of course not.

Do i believe that lack of accountability and mgmt acumen will kill the project - absolutely.

He had a perfectly buildable game as pitched in kickstarter... before money got to his head... who the hell hires a personal chef? That is utter hubris...

He still has a few life lines left... he can borrow from banks, go venture cap route, or even get a publisher to bridge him the funds... that of course will be used as the reason why the game will not be delivered as per pitched...

Read their messaging... star citizen is not a "game" anymore but an "experience"... what a load of BS

[Gremlich Johns]

I'd like to know how many of the CIG haters/naysayers are actually backers. (If polls are correct, that might be 25% of the population) I'd also like to know where people get their information about the game? From PCGamer and other such outlets? Friends? Derek Smart?

If you aren't a backer, chances are that you don't know anything about the project - and don't say "I read all of the industry information that is available." That's not giving you any points because the Video Games journalism industry relies on the video game publishers for their income and the most well known publishers do not want CIG to succeed - this will have a draining affect on their income streams - and so the most well known sites are slow to report any positive progress. Most of the time, those outlets are months behind CIG development.

If you are a backer, then something else is influencing your negative point of view, whether it is an overboard sense of entitlement, impatience, whatever. You and your fellow naysayer backers have at least "invested" in the game's development.

If you listen to your friends, how many of them are backers or are just console jockeys jealous that they'll never get SC.

If you listen to Derek Smart, well, you listen to Derek Smart. Nuff said.

And then there are those that will wail, whine, gnash teeth and rend clothing about CIG just because the internet allows them to with no repercussions. These people are just !D-10-Ts. (they are also attention hogs like the DPRK is - nobody is paying attention to me so I'll say "......")

Oh, point of interest, Sean Murray, one of the SC Crytek engineers, was one of the Fans who helped create MW:LL.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 16 August 2015 - 07:59 AM.

[Rebas Kradd]

It's all a matter of appearances, I think. I doubt Roberts is an evil individual, and there's nothing morally wrong with hiring a personal chef when you've come into a bit of money...in and of itself. But how did he expect the players to view that hiring? Especially when the game is delayed?

I'd give anything for a CEO who can truly see things through the eyes of his customers and act accordingly.

[Gremlich Johns]

Okay, so dragging E:D into this. And I don't mean erectile disfunction.

Is E:D currently a multiplayer game in the traditional sense? No, but granted the chance of meeting another human is there.
Is E:D considered an MMORPG? No
Can you walk around on Planets, your ship, or in space stations? No.
Is E:D a different game than either Squadron 42 or Star Citizen? Yes.

And they've raised over $87 mil, not $60 mil as you cited. That's an indicator that you are uninformed about the development making your opinion moot. The world knows more about SC's development than any other game past and current and you cannot say it isn't. Obviously, unless people are not sitting side-saddle with a programmer, nobody knows what's going on. That's pretty stupid to believe that. Not ignorant, but stoopid.

Are any of the Backers of E:D (or, snicker, Line of Defense) as in the know about that game as SC backers are of SC or backers of Descent: Underground? No.

[Kyone Akashi]

Marack Drock, on 15 August 2015 - 06:30 AM, said:

After being shafted by a company that had more funding for their game than any of those MMO's.... I think someone is just pocketing the money and development is ****.

No, I really don't think that is the case. Rather, I'd concur with IraqiWalker in that feature creep and lack of control resulted in a somewhat chaotic developer environment - not to mention the many outsourced modules. I can only imagine what a challenge it must be to coordinate and synchronize with so many different studios and teams all across the globe! As such, the delays are understandable, in that I think the creators of the project were quite simply a bit naive when all of this started. At the very least once the feature creep began.

Gaming history is filled with the corpses of well-meaning studios that got crushed under the steamroller of financial pressure because they lost control over how much money they bleed. Look up 38 Studios. :/

There's a risk that this may be the case here as well, but as has been pointed out already there are still many options left, so I honestly would not expect this worst-case scenario to occur just yet. It could be a topic that comes up again in the next two to four years, perhaps, but who knows how far development has advanced at that point in time?

Gremlich Johns, on 16 August 2015 - 07:57 AM, said:

If you aren't a backer, chances are that you don't know anything about the project [...] If you are a backer, then something else is influencing your negative point of view, whether it is an overboard sense of entitlement, impatience, whatever. [...] If you listen to your friends, how many of them are backers or are just console jockeys jealous that they'll never get SC. [...] If you listen to Derek Smart, well, you listen to Derek Smart. Nuff said. [...] And then there are those that will wail, whine, gnash teeth and rend clothing about CIG just because the internet allows them to with no repercussions.

If you brush off criticism with such a broad stroke, of course you will also see how the very same brush could be applied in reverse and to you. "If you are a backer and think everything is awesome, you are obviously a victim of the hype and a deluded fanboi."

Some differentiation would be nice. I'm sure there are a lot of people on both extreme ends of the scale, but I would hope that most of the criticism comes from a simple loss of faith based on the fate of similar projects. Because this can be turned around again when the studio produces something good. Either way, basically countering any sort of negativity with "lol u don't know anything" rather than actually disseminating the arguments isn't a very good way to conduct a debate.

Gremlich Johns, on 16 August 2015 - 12:21 PM, said:

Okay, so dragging E:D into this. And I don't mean erectile disfunction.

Uh-oh. No good will come from this.

Gremlich Johns, on 16 August 2015 - 12:21 PM, said:

Is E:D currently a multiplayer game in the traditional sense? No, but granted the chance of meeting another human is there.
Is E:D considered an MMORPG? No
Can you walk around on Planets, your ship, or in space stations? No.
Is E:D a different game than either Squadron 42 or Star Citizen? Yes.

... what?

#1 Nonsense. The multiplayer aspect is the primary reason given for why the game is online-only, and it is heavily biased towards social interaction and group play (actually a little too much, imho).

#2 Depends on how you define the term. The multiplayer is massive, and a lot of people are roleplaying there. I'd argue it is at least as much of an MMORPG as, say, WoW. Which is to say not much, but that is primarily because the roleplaying aspect doesn't work out very well in a massively multiplayer environment.

#3 What is the meaning of this question? If that is intended for a comparison, can you do so in SC right now?

#4 This at least is correct. Both games aim for different aspects, focuses and aesthetics. Pretty much the only competition comes from both of them being space sims, but personally I consider this overlap to be blown out of proportion by the gaming populace. Each of the games has enough unique parts to make it stand out and as such will see different people gravitate to different products based on the features they are looking for. Win-win?

[Mystere]

There are so much of these it's getting funny:

[Gremlich Johns]

Marack Drock, on 16 August 2015 - 12:44 PM, said:

funnily enough I said the garnered more than 60 million. I said 60 million because it is the last mark they put on their website. Their website sited 65 million as the last goal amount. So I was using that. Sorry for not putting it in context.

Next: Prove to me there is any significant development.

Their is no game yet after 3 years, the studio is working on this as pretty much its sole product, and it hasn't given us a single thing in the last 3 years. The backers don't need to be around to assume that SC is just a money funneling waste. Here's why: because after 3 years we still don't have anything. They are either sitting on their asses, being slow as hell, or purposefully not giving us anything. Take your pick but either way it gives us no reason to have any friendly attitude towards CIG. Also the exact amount of money to SC is: 87,394,018. Yes its on their website too, but I prefer to use the fundraiser goals. Mainly because lets see........ its more than any other kickstarter ever. Even at the 60 million mark its more than MW:O who had nearly made the previous record if memory recalls. And yet we still have nothing to show.

Yeah we assume a lot and don't know because we aren't hovering over the programmer's shoulders but in all reality the programmers have given no reason to make us happy. None at all. In fact quite the opposite. They have given nothing but we have given them more than any other kickstarter in history. Explain how that is fair after 3 years of barely anything.

Elite dangerous may not have planet walking **** and stuff, but its still even just in space 50000 times+ larger in scale. And only had a last recorded budget of 8 million euros if I recall correctly although it is said to have grown but no numbers were given.

CIG is lazy.

Everything you've cited is incorrect. Also, if you had been following the development and had seen the recent GamesCom videos, you would know how much has been done.

The game, as an MMORPG, is only 2 years and 8 months into development. If you had even bothered to acknowledge the chart I put up earlier in the thread, you will see that ALL of the major MMORPGs have taken way longer to give way less than CIG has done in 2 years 8 months. So no, there is no game because it is, at present, in Alpha status and any [Redacted] knows that you cannot produce a game of this scope in 3 years. [Redacted].

* The Beta for E:D is 100 Euros and as far as the actual amount that has been expended, to quote Braben "Although the game's original total development budget had been £8 million, by September 2014 this had, in Braben's words, "grown by quite a lot". So you also do not have accurate information for that data point.

* They marked 60 mil on 1 Nov 2014, they have been listing each milestone as it is reached. This means you have done no research related to the funding - probably depending on other people to read for you, eh.

* They have migrated the 32-bit version of Cryegine3 to 64-bit - this gives them larger areas to work in - as in billions of virtual km between objects. They have done other programming changes which will ultimately improve the gameplay.

* Backers can walk around their hangars and at the end of the month, should be able to walk beyond that magical door and visit other backers hangars, not to mention Arcorp, the first major city in the SC milieu. Not even EVE can claim that, nor E:D or Free Man's Sky (eventually on PC).

* You will see that backers playing just in the Alpha of Arena Commander 1.1.6 can enter a ship, strap in, fly it to a destination, park that vessel above another one, get out of the pilot's seat, exit the ship and EVA to another vessel, enter than vessel and walk around with absolutely no loading occurring. There is currently no game I can think of that doesn't require loading of the new area before you enter it - even E:D needs a load screen (the hyperjump or whatever it's called) before you do anything in another place outside of your ship. Also, when AC 2.0 comes out, multiple-crew ships will be able to be flown (see the multi-crew vid from GamesCom - tell me that's not impressive)

https://robertsspace...s.com/comm-link

https://robertsspace...m/funding-goals

[Redacted]

Edited by GM Patience, 18 August 2015 - 03:48 PM.
insults

[IraqiWalker]

Rebas Kradd, on 16 August 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

It's all a matter of appearances, I think. I doubt Roberts is an evil individual, and there's nothing morally wrong with hiring a personal chef when you've come into a bit of money...in and of itself. But how did he expect the players to view that hiring? Especially when the game is delayed?

I'd give anything for a CEO who can truly see things through the eyes of his customers and act accordingly.

I don't think he's evil at all. I was one of the people most excited about SC, and honestly wanted to get 15000 dollars to give to him. I couldn't because I have less money than brains XP.

I think people want something to complain about.

Gremlich Johns, on 16 August 2015 - 07:57 AM, said:

I'd like to know how many of the CIG haters/naysayers are actually backers. (If polls are correct, that might be 25% of the population) I'd also like to know where people get their information about the game? From PCGamer and other such outlets? Friends? Derek Smart?

If you aren't a backer, chances are that you don't know anything about the project - and don't say "I read all of the industry information that is available." That's not giving you any points because the Video Games journalism industry relies on the video game publishers for their income and the most well known publishers do not want CIG to succeed - this will have a draining affect on their income streams - and so the most well known sites are slow to report any positive progress. Most of the time, those outlets are months behind CIG development.

If you are a backer, then something else is influencing your negative point of view, whether it is an overboard sense of entitlement, impatience, whatever. You and your fellow naysayer backers have at least "invested" in the game's development.

If you listen to your friends, how many of them are backers or are just console jockeys jealous that they'll never get SC.

If you listen to Derek Smart, well, you listen to Derek Smart. Nuff said.

And then there are those that will wail, whine, gnash teeth and rend clothing about CIG just because the internet allows them to with no repercussions. These people are just !D-10-Ts. (they are also attention hogs like the DPRK is - nobody is paying attention to me so I'll say "......")

Oh, point of interest, Sean Murray, one of the SC Crytek engineers, was one of the Fans who helped create MW:LL.

Some of us grew up with Chris Roberts games, and we followed his news year after year. Many of us had spent summers playing his games (Who here can question the impact of Freelancer on a generation, and the industry). Some of us were there to see him fail an entire project, because of feature creep, that he tends to fall into (something corroborated by many close to him, and worked with him).

[Kyone Akashi]

Gremlich Johns, on 16 August 2015 - 03:54 PM, said:

If you had even bothered to acknowledge the chart I put up earlier in the thread, you will see that ALL of the major MMORPGs have taken way longer to give way less than CIG has done in 2 years 8 months.

The chart is misleading by presupposing a similar state in development. I assure you that the other games listed on that chart were quite a bit farther in development after 2 years and 8 months. As such the chart is useless in the debate, and it comes across as somewhat desperate.

The thing is: it shouldn't matter. Some projects just take longer because of how they are conducted, and given the hurdles that come with synchronizing global development efforts, the delays -- which have been officially acknowledged by the developer as such, regardless of how this chart seems to try to ignore it -- are not only unsurprising, but perhaps should have even been expected.

This is further complicated by the horrible netcode of CryEngine that will take quite a bit of work to optimize, as has also been pointed out in the recent couple "state of the game" newsletters. MWO players should be quite aware of this issue, and now perhaps you should consider that CIG is trying to do a bit more than a 12v12 on limited maps. In this aspect, I think the question should not be "why is this taking so long" but rather why the studio opted for an engine platform that quite simply isn't very suited for this type of game. CryEngine looks good, and that's pretty much the only thing it has going for it. Alas, looks alone do not make a good game.

This too is not a massive problem, for there is a chance that with sufficient coding and rewriting, they can make it work. Again, the real issue is how long this would take, and whether the budget will last until then, or if they will have to make any concessions.

[Chrithu]

As an original backer from 2012 it's funny to see how people that bought into the hype in 2014 without understanding what they'd get into start complaining now.

The original vision from 2012 - being not even half the game they are aiming at now mind you - already was so ambitious that nobody in their right mind took CR seriously when he said it would be done by 2015. Clever enough he didn't even bother to set another date for the finished product when the vision became bigger and bigger.

I think a lot of people are too used to being lied to and didn't take CR serious either when he said that they'd only release if the game's done and up to the quality he has in mind even if it means the game's delayed for years even.

As far as business model goes: You can hardly blame them for going on to sell ships if a mind wooping 80% of the community tells them time and again in votes that they shall continue to presale ships. And just like with MWO you cannot argue about the prices either if obviously a fair amount of people are willing to pay them.

If you take CRs word the sale of ships will not be the model for the finished persistent universe though. There hasn't been much talk about that lately and the last info about the plans in that regard still is that you can buy ingame currency with real money in a limited amount per week/month to shortcut on time in a way and that's it. Actual items though will only be available ingame for the ingame currency and their avilability will be dictated by the ingame economy.

Repeating myself I again have to say that buying into Star Citizen at such enormous amounts was your own decision. And if you'd have read even just a few of CRs messages you would have known to expect the game to be heavily delayed as he explained over and over that even though they plan to finich stuff at a certain time they will absolutely delay it for as long as needed should it not meet the necessary quality.

I pretty much expect things to sort out pretty quick now. What we saw from the different modules at the gamescom presentation looked quite impressive. And knowing that the performance captures for Squadron 42 (the single player part) are already wrapped up and done I expect a release of the Single Player campaign to the backers in the first half of 2016, which will relief a lot of folks I guess. And returning to the original timetable from 2012 that would mean only 9 months of delay, as the original plan was to release the Single Player Campaign in Summer 2015 and the Persistent Universe afterwards. So the guys are still pretty much on time even though they pumped up the ambition of the game that much. Mind you the original vision had no FPS part at all.

[Iqfish]

I just played a few matches of Arena Commander with my friends and it was lots of fun.

Can't imagine the amount of fun I will have when I can fly on the capital ships of my friends

[Tank]

Iqfish, on 20 August 2015 - 05:13 AM, said:

I just played a few matches of Arena Commander with my friends and it was lots of fun.

Can't imagine the amount of fun I will have when I can fly on the capital ships of my friends

It would be more fun to make a giant roaming scrub gang that destroys all the property with their little scrubby ships. Don't worry it will happen - I lived trough that back in Ultima Online.