58 replies to this topic

[Flawed]

So.... with the implementation of MASC, I feel that bringing back knockdowns makes more sense now. With so many splat builds overunning MWO right now, a perfect counter would be a willing teammate to knock over those annoying Stormcrows and have your buddies point and laugh at the result as they blast that no skill tryhard into a smoldering pile of metal *breath*... Not that every mech should be able to knock down any target they choose, there has to be a certain weight ratio and speed in play.

So a Spider at full speed into an Atlas.... the resulst should be obvious, Spider should fall and get stomped on for his horrible decision and lack of piloting skills. Now if it were a medium mech, say a Cicada.... running with it's advantages speed at an Atlas, there should be a very small chance the Atlas toples over, but the Cicada should most definitely fall to the ground. Heavy vs Assault, a higher chance for the Assault to fall over, well... a little more thought should go into it.

Anyway, back to MASC. With the Executioner on it's way, it goes without saying this mech should be the knockdown king. Just think about it. The perfect lineman to your defense position. Example. You are in your LRM boat (shut up haters) you find the perfect nest, LRM's raining down on your enemies. WAM!! holy crap, a splatcrow has snuck up on you with his two ECM Raven buddies. Your wingman on the Executioner sees this and comes to your aid. *stomp stomp stomp* down goes the crow! Executioner shoots him while he's down. You do what you can with whatever broomstick you have against those Ravens. Crow gets back up all bloody and broken. ravens hightail it out of there with a major **** trail in there wake. You take minimal damage, or way less then you should have with three mechs on you. Your two other lance mates show up. crow is down and out as soon as he is in their sights. Your Executioner looks into the distance... Looks like those Raven's.... *put on shades*..... flew the coop... YEEEAAAAAAAAHH!

Perfect scenario.

Now imagine the offensive capablity..... oh yeah... you just brought back the Assault in Assault Mech.

New strategies, more highlights, no more splat builds in your face. You are getting rid of the Deathball tactic. Now you actually have to "pilot" your mech.. WUUUUUAAAATT!?!?!?! Thinking in Mechwarrior?! Yes Billy, use them brain cells. Your are not hindering the game, you are bringing more balance to the game that we all know and love. Now.... I get the difficulty with programing this into the game, and ass wipes who will probably abuse it in CW, but that's what you get for playing CW.... but come on guys. I don't want to live in fear of light mech in my King Crab. if that little ******* comes at me from behind, more power to him.... but if that little pest is bobbing, weaving, and running through multiple friendly mechs without lifting his finger off the "W" key or just hitting "0". I say NAY! He runs straight into me, he falls, he looks up at me with his bloddy pressed in face, I tear him apart with my claws, done. That idiot got what he deserved, learn to pilot.

Now that goes for you too.... YES. YOU. READER! STOP CUTTING ME OFF!! I'm going 56KPH in my Crab, stop cutting me off. Stop standing behind me! Stay at least 20 meters from me. Give me space! BAM! Oh, what happened? Did I knock you over? THAT'S WHAT YOU GET FOR GETTING IN MY WAY!


what do you guys think?

Edited by Flawed, 12 June 2015 - 02:05 PM.

[FupDup]

Flawed, on 12 June 2015 - 01:57 PM, said:

...With so many splat builds overunning MWO right now...

Um, no. The current "meta" that people complain about is laser vomit, especially long range to mid range.

---

In general, I think it's pretty contradictory for people to say that a light or medium running into an assault mech is bad piloting skill, but then when an assault mech rams into people it's suddenly not low skill anymore. You can't have it both ways. If bumping into enemies is bad piloting, that means an assault mech running into enemies is just as unskilled as a light mech doing it.


Also, this would be an indirect buff to the highly mobile Clan heavies, which can keep up with most IS mediums quite easily. Can't even outrun them before they ram your face down. Not to mention, it would make the Stormcrow even more ridiculous against IS mediums and lights.


You're also going to destroy weight class balancing even further than it already is, because you said specifically that a mech's tonnage would be the factor in what determines if it stays up or not. There's enough of an arm's race to the biggest mechs as it is, we don't need to add any more fuel to the fire. We need a lot less fuel if anything.


Lastly, I'm going to leave this video right here to illustrate why it's silly for mechs to fall over just for touching each other:

[Flawed]

that's what that Hunchback gets for straying from the team. and if your slow enough to have an Atlas catch up to you, you deserve to get knocked over. they are called Assault mech's for a reason. i get what your saying but there really has to be a way to bring knockdown back, i miss the whole, take it slow and out think the enemy. i hate this whole... "guys wanna rush the saddle?" so, that's just me

Edited by Flawed, 12 June 2015 - 02:15 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

Hmm.... this would definitely makes taking the EXE *far* more interesting. I suggest that it works on the momentum principle (wonder if it was like that already).

EXE hides in a corner and prepares to run and engage his MASC. A Hunchback pass by and bam! down he goes. EXE then proceed to unload on his face. Nice.

[Soy]

FupDup, on 12 June 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

Um, no. The current "meta" that people complain about is laser vomit, especially long range to mid range.

---

In general, I think it's pretty contradictory for people to say that a light or medium running into an assault mech is bad piloting skill, but then when an assault mech rams into people it's suddenly not low skill anymore. You can't have it both ways. If bumping into enemies is bad piloting, that means an assault mech running into enemies is just as unskilled as a light mech doing it.


Also, this would be an indirect buff to the highly mobile Clan heavies, which can keep up with most IS mediums quite easily. Can't even outrun them before they ram your face down. Not to mention, it would make the Stormcrow even more ridiculous against IS mediums and lights.


You're also going to destroy weight class balancing even further than it already is, because you said specifically that a mech's tonnage would be the factor in what determines if it stays up or not. There's enough of an arm's race to the biggest mechs as it is, we don't need to add any more fuel to the fire. We need a lot less fuel if anything.


Lastly, I'm going to leave this video right here to illustrate why it's silly for mechs to fall over just for touching each other:

Nobody is having it both ways cuz it's already established that the skill for piloting an assault with any sort of finesse is out the window.

Nobody holds it against assault pilots if they are a bit clumsy, cuz, well, they're assaults. That's always been the case. They get the benefit of the doubt, in fact. See: Nascaring complaints

That should be kinda obvious.

Some really ****** up incomplete system is anecdotal excuse to not implement the concept legitimately, don't act stupid. Oh they half-assed it once, so it'll never work properly! Great argument, Einstein.

You seem to think this **** out only in one scenario. Talking about Stormcrows, dude what the hell are you talking about. There's lots of ways to implement collisions, and you haven't accounted for that whatsoever. You account for some old ****** beta half-done mechanic and consider that apparently as the be-all end all. That's asinine.

Also I fail to see how Clan heavies get a boost when they can't run max engines for max speed...

Get at me crumb.

[Corbenik]

I think the vid that needs to be shown is the one against Paul "Why we can't have nice things" vid ;x

[FupDup]

Soy, on 12 June 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

Some really ****** up incomplete system is anecdotal excuse to not implement the concept legitimately, don't act stupid. Oh they half-assed it once, so it'll never work properly! Great argument, Einstein.

You seem to think this **** out only in one scenario. There's lots of ways to implement collisions, and you haven't accounted for that whatsoever. You account for some old ****** beta half-done mechanic and consider that apparently as the be-all end all.

Think that there is some magical super balanced way to implement it? Okay then, how about you present it? Because just saying "Oh brah, there's totally a magical good way to do it, you just gotta believe" isn't going to cut it.


Here is my challenge to you. I'm going to list several parameters below based on what I would consider to be a "balanced" system. Your job, should you choose to accept it, is to DETAIL and DESCRIBE a system that adheres to ALL OF THE CRITERION. Ready to begin?

• 1. Must not penalize or reward certain mech tonnages. Must be fair across the board to all weight classes.
  
• 2. Must not penalize mechs for being slow. For example, who the hell would use a slow light when a fast light can bowl you over and you have absolutely zero hope of escaping?
  
• 3. Must not penalize mechs that lack JJs, i.e. using JJs during a collision does not help you any more than just being groundbound.
  
• 4. Must not render players completely defenseless and unable to perform any action. There has to be some way to fight back.
  
• 5. Must not be an instant death sentence for mechs being affected by it. Consider that in the present day, our mechs can put out large amounts of damage, and that's before we consider multiple mechs per team even. Also note that just dropping an artillery strike on a defenseless guy squiring on the floor would contribute to very fast kills that way. Also, it's just really really easy to shoot at immobilized targets, it's nearly impossible to miss.
  
• 6. Perhaps as a bonus, it doesn't result in complete fusterclucking when teams are moving out of spawn. In the present day, that old system in the video would result in many players getting crippled before they even got out of spawn.
  
• 7. It isn't overpowered to the point that it becomes a preferred tactic of choice. I.e. there should be a reason for you to NOT mindlessly ram enemy mechs. This ties back to criterion #1 in that even assault mechs should have a reason to NOT just mindlessly ram everything. Aka it has to be high risk.

Can you fulfill all of these? If you can, then congratulations, you might have actually solved the problems with KD's. If not, then you're just here to troll me and piss me off, and quite frankly it's already working.

Edited by FupDup, 12 June 2015 - 02:37 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

So Fup, you want a collision system that does absolutely nothing, if we're to follow that list of yours, which is getting working collisions and knockdowns back in the game how exactly?

You use a vid of dragon bowling, which was due to a very badly implemented system, which you are fully aware of, and use THAT as the reason we should never have knockdown? Soy was right on the money.

Knockdowns SHOULD be based on tonnage, bigger Mechs knock down littler Mechs, don't like it, STAY OUT OF THEIR WAY! And if you can't avoid an Atlas in your Urby, dude, you got a LOT bigger problems than getting knocked down.

Tonnage and speed, these are the factors for collision damage and knockdowns, simple as that. Atlas runs into a Jenner and that Jenner will get knocked down. Jenner runs into an Atlas, that Jenner is going to be hurting, may well end up on it's ass, but the Atlas won't go down. Jenner gets up to full speed, uses JJs to get INTO the air and hits the Atlas in the upper body, NOW we've got an Atlas on it's ass, Jenner as well. Both will take damage in EVERY one of these collision scenerios by the way.

Sorry Fup, but your argument and your list of things that must be done before allowing knockdowns are pure bs.

[Tristan Winter]

Collisions first. Then let's see if the game is ready for knockdowns.

[Soy]

FupDup, on 12 June 2015 - 02:35 PM, said:

Here is my challenge to you.

3. Must not penalize mechs that lack JJs, i.e. using JJs during a collision does not help you any more than just being groundbound.

Must not penalize a mech without JJs?

Do you know what DFA is?

If you're gonna make a list of stuff at least make it somewhat legitimate. I can't take that seriously.

Edited by Soy, 12 June 2015 - 02:47 PM.

[FupDup]

Kristov Kerensky, on 12 June 2015 - 02:45 PM, said:

So Fup, you want a collision system that does absolutely nothing, if we're to follow that list of yours, which is getting working collisions and knockdowns back in the game how exactly?

You use a vid of dragon bowling, which was due to a very badly implemented system, which you are fully aware of, and use THAT as the reason we should never have knockdown? Soy was right on the money.

Knockdowns SHOULD be based on tonnage, bigger Mechs knock down littler Mechs, don't like it, STAY OUT OF THEIR WAY! And if you can't avoid an Atlas in your Urby, dude, you got a LOT bigger problems than getting knocked down.

Tonnage and speed, these are the factors for collision damage and knockdowns, simple as that. Atlas runs into a Jenner and that Jenner will get knocked down. Jenner runs into an Atlas, that Jenner is going to be hurting, may well end up on it's ass, but the Atlas won't go down. Jenner gets up to full speed, uses JJs to get INTO the air and hits the Atlas in the upper body, NOW we've got an Atlas on it's ass, Jenner as well. Both will take damage in EVERY one of these collision scenerios by the way.

Sorry Fup, but your argument and your list of things that must be done before allowing knockdowns are pure bs.

The point of the big list was to address each of the flaws I see in a potential KD system. If they don't get addressed, then it's a flawed system. You personally are the type of masochist the prefers a flawed version, as you've described in this quote box, but that doesn't suddenly change the fact that you want one just as badly implemented as the old one.

I also do have more than one video of the shenanigans.







https://www.youtube....0x2mlkvqZI#t=16

Soy, on 12 June 2015 - 02:46 PM, said:

Must not penalize a mech without JJs?

Do you know what DFA is?

If you're gonna make a list of stuff at least make it somewhat legitimate. I can't take that seriously.

DFA is just a ram from above (vertical) instead of horizontal.

Edited by FupDup, 12 June 2015 - 02:52 PM.

[Soy]

On that tip Fup, I'd like to clarify that I'm not 'wanting' a knockdown system at all.

I'm not stumping for anything.

Would it be cool, sure. If done well. Wasn't done well before. Doesn't mean it can't be done well in the future. That's reality.

If you want me to take time out of my busy [lol] life to make some 'system' then it should include DFA if we're talking about knockdowns, don't act naive.

And no, a knockdown is a knock down. A death from above is a death from above.

I don't even

[Flawed]

FUPDUP, I could be wrong, but you are thinking way too much from a Dualing perspective. 1mech vs 1mech, this is a 12v12 game. 1 on 1 yes.... this is a disaster. 12 on 12.... you better watch your ass out there. Thums up on the vids, needed something to cheer me up from my rant. Hence why your are here.

Edited by Flawed, 12 June 2015 - 02:59 PM.

[FupDup]

Flawed, on 12 June 2015 - 02:58 PM, said:

FUPDUP, I could be wrong, but you are thinking way too much from a Dualing perspective. 1mech vs 1mech, this is a 12v12 game. 1 on 1 yes.... this is a disaster. 12 on 12.... you better watch your ass out there.

Adding more mechs to the equation just increases the potential for fusterclucking.

[Kristov Kerensky]

DFA is destruction of the cockpit by jumping on the head of a Mech, and even if you do it right, you end up on your ass.

And yes, I do want the TT version of collisions and knockdowns in the game, JUST LIKE ALL THE PREVIOUS MW TITLES HAD!

I'm sorry you don't think a 100 ton Mech should be able to knock down a 30 ton Mech, you simply don't want to be on your ass and unable to do anything for a few seconds, you refuse to allow stunlocks in the game in any way, shape or form. I would imagine you hate the overheat shutdowns with a passion as it's just another version of stunlock, only it's self inflicted.

It's part of the entire BattleTech/MechWarrior game, universe, canon, lore and EVERY single MW title to date that bigger Mechs knock smaller Mechs down, that running into Mechs causes bad things to happen one way or another.

And franky Fup, I'm sick and effing tired of catering to the damn participation trophy crowd, which you seem to leading at the moment.

[Soy]

Fup, humor me and present some sort of footage showing a collision system that you found acceptable from a previous MW title.

[FupDup]

Kristov Kerensky, on 12 June 2015 - 03:00 PM, said:

DFA is destruction of the cockpit by jumping on the head of a Mech, and even if you do it right, you end up on your ass.

And yes, I do want the TT version of collisions and knockdowns in the game, JUST LIKE ALL THE PREVIOUS MW TITLES HAD!

It's part of the entire BattleTech/MechWarrior game, universe, canon, lore and EVERY single MW title to date that bigger Mechs knock smaller Mechs down, that running into Mechs causes bad things to happen one way or another.

MWO closed beta is the only PC Mechwarrior game in history where mechs fall over when you just rub up against them. MW4's worst consequence was some damage from ramming, but neither mech fell over from just a collision. MW3 didn't even HAVE collision damage, just a ramming sound.

They were also pretty broken in previous games, like how boating many small SRM launchers in MW4 was better at knocking people over than anything, and how in MW3 could you had a chance to knock over an Atlas by just grazing a Medium Pulse Laser across its leg.

KD's to me have always seemed like something that was included just for the sake of including it, rather than serving an integral function of some sort.

Kristov Kerensky, on 12 June 2015 - 03:00 PM, said:

I'm sorry you don't think a 100 ton Mech should be able to knock down a 30 ton Mech, you simply don't want to be on your ass and unable to do anything for a few seconds, you refuse to allow stunlocks in the game in any way, shape or form. I would imagine you hate the overheat shutdowns with a passion as it's just another version of stunlock, only it's self inflicted.

The fact that it's self-inflicted is precisely why I accept overheat shutdowns. It also is a gradual buildup that you can control over time, rather than a single, instantaneous one-and-done event. It also helps keep high-heat builds in check, and indirectly incentivize low-heat weapons. And there's even an override button for shutdowns, but there ain't no override knockdown button.

Kristov Kerensky, on 12 June 2015 - 03:00 PM, said:

And franky Fup, I'm sick and effing tired of catering to the damn participation trophy crowd, which you seem to leading at the moment.

And I'm sick and tired of dragging myself into forum discussions that accomplish about as much as religious debates. It's like a Christian arguing with an Atheist, it's physically impossible for anyone to convince anyone of anything ever. Frankly, I think that the Atheist arguing a Christian would actually be MORE productive than my arguments with you.

Edited by FupDup, 12 June 2015 - 03:12 PM.

[J0anna]

The easiest way is that both mechs take damage (just use slightly modified tabletop rules for charging i.e. (mech weight/10) * (Mech speed/10)). And that both mechs have a flat percentage to fall (for example 30%) modified by their difference in weights (or momentum). So you might run around trying to bowl people over, but you will always take damage and could easily wind up on your back.

And being a big fan of DFA, make any mech jumping on a downed mech do (Mech weight/10 * number of JJ) damage to the fallen mech while taking (Target weight/10) damage to their legs (only) and having a 20% chance to fall (so there is risk).

[Flawed]

Didn't think collisions were such a touchy subject. I just wanted a simple, "hell yeah, that **** would be nice" or a "hell no, I'm going back to CoD" but man....

[FupDup]

Soy, on 12 June 2015 - 03:01 PM, said:

Fup, humor me and present some sort of footage showing a collision system that you found acceptable from a previous MW title.

I don't have any videos of collisions from MW3 or MW4, but here is the description of each one:

MW3: Ramming sound, mech pushed back (not knocked over), throttle cut to zero

MW4: Ramming sound, a little bit of damage


I wouldn't consider either one to be perfect or good, but they beat the crap out of MWO's old one.

For me, the type of collision system that I could endorse would include the following:

1. A crunchy/slammy sound when two mechs hit.

2. More damage than what it does now. Exact value is hard to decide, shouldn't be tiny but also shouldn't be tearing people in half.

3. A bit of screen shaking.

4. Throttle zeroed.

5. The mechs not warping or rubberbanding into each other, they are solid objects.


Note that the list doesn't have KD's in it.