126 replies to this topic

[Alek Ituin]

Destoroyah, on 13 June 2015 - 09:59 PM, said:

The Clan XL engines is the single most prominent piece of equipment the clans use that give them such a large advantage. Cause it's like they are getting all the benefits of the IS XL with only 10% of the drawbacks.

A possible alternative would be to buff the IS engine tech a bit but I do agree the clan XL needs a slight agility nerf like 10% when they lose a side cause the engine is effectively damaged so shouldn't work at full potential.

For IS XLs add like 10% Structure to the side torso's.
IS Standards would add a lot more like 30-40% additional structure to compensate for it's drawbacks.
And when Light Fusion Engines are released they perform just like clan XL's but I think they are slightly heavier then IS XL's.
When Clan Standard Engines come out there needs to be something that makes them feel worth the trade for all that weight they are losing though I think Clan Standard engines are lighter the IS Standard Engines.

So this is the Basis of my suggestion.

Standard XL - High risk for great weight saving, but are slightly more durable then LFE and ClanXL.
Clan XL and Light Fusion Engines - Lower risk then Standard XL's but suffer penalties as the engine is damaged.
Standard Engines - Low speed and weight Saving, but compensates with great durability.

This way every engine has a purpose.

You're missing the point of LFE's and Clan XL's in the first place.

They were made specifically to increase durability over standard XL engines, be lowering the amount of engine that spills over in to the ST's. Mounting a standard XL should just give you extra tonnage, end-of. LFE's and Clan XL's are a midpoint between XL's and STD engines, so they should be more durable than an XL while being heavier at the same time... LFE's are also like, 5x more expensive then a comparable XL though, so there is that.

[EvilCow]

It would be possible to associate a much larger speed decrease to torso loss, something like 40%. STD engines would not have such disadvantage and also take less slots.

Clan XLs would still be better but not so overwhelmingly better.

[Aresye]

Yeah, let's make it so every dual gauss IS heavy doesn't have a drawback to it. Flawless idea.

[Dino Might]

Aresye Kerensky, on 13 June 2015 - 11:24 PM, said:

Yeah, let's make it so every dual gauss IS heavy doesn't have a drawback to it. Flawless idea.

Yeah! Make them closer to equal with the dual gauss Clan mechs!

[Xetelian]

Mister D, on 13 June 2015 - 07:18 PM, said:

What would be the point of STD engines then?

I hear what you're saying, and IS will eventually get Light Fusion engines that will be exactly like Clan-XL.

I don't think you'll ever get PGI to even acknowledge the thought of making standard XL's work like that though, even with as much balance as it could bring to the game.

STDs would be around for stock mech matches.

Otherwise most mechs upgrade to an XL. Making them even would alleviate some bad balancing.

[Dino Might]

Xetelian, on 14 June 2015 - 12:24 AM, said:

STDs would be around for stock mech matches.

Otherwise most mechs upgrade to an XL. Making them even would alleviate some bad balancing.

The more I play, the more I appreciate standard engines. I reserve XLs for lights. Everything else except some specialist builds are standards only.

[Haxburch]

Buff IS XL = Clan XL and take away all Clan nerfsStandad Engines are usefull like singel heatsinks, use it or use not. Evrybody build up the mechs anyway.

Edited by Haxburch, 14 June 2015 - 12:29 AM.

[Aresye]

Dino Might, on 13 June 2015 - 11:39 PM, said:

Yeah! Make them closer to equal with the dual gauss Clan mechs!

For the same firepower as a 65t Jagermech, the 85t Warhawk has Clan XL but has low slung arms and weighs more.

For the same firepower as an 85t Warhawk, the Jagermech has high mounted arms and weighs less, but has IS XL.

Give IS the same advantages of Clan XL, the 65t Jagermech now has the advantage over the 85t Warhawk.

[Rushmoar]

FupDup, on 13 June 2015 - 07:21 PM, said:

Basically, the issue is that IS STD engines would be invalidated on most builds.

I think that whatever we do with the IS side, that the Clan XL does deserve a 10% speed reduction for losing a side. This value basically cancels out speed tweak, which I think is manageable enough that the sub-par Clan chassis can survive it well enough, while still being kinda noticeable.

My thought was to remove the speed tweak buff when you lose a side torso. If you don't have speed tweak yet, nothing happens. There isn't any speed tweak in TT. I sure it's a PGI thing so it won't break any rules. I'm pretty sure Russ was against this though.

Edited by Rushmoar, 14 June 2015 - 12:52 AM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

XL's fine where they are at.

[RavensScar]

Of course, this is all going to be hilarious when the Arctic Cheetah is released. 140kph, ECM, a bucketload of hardpoints, and it can survive losing an ST.

GG IS Lights.

[Sjorpha]

I'd rather give IS XLs some other perk rather than make them more like clan xl, it's not just about balance, there needs to be a difference in flavour too.

Ideally, I would like to see the engines balanced against each other like this:

Standard: Heaviest, smallest, most durable
Clan XL: Lighter, larger, less durable
IS XL: Lightest, largest, least durable

All you'd really need to do to get that is to slightly lower the weight of IS XLs. Then you'd have three distinctly different engine types with their own ups and downs, all worth using. That's how good balance is designed in games IMO.

Single heatsinks needs to be made worthwhile as well, it's completely ridiculous that there are obselete equipment in the game, everything should be worth using.

The easiest way to balance single heatsinks IMO would be to treat all engine internal heatsinks as either single or double, and have the upgrade apply only to external heatsinks, since the major imbalance right now comes from the increased efficiency of the internal heatsinks that doesn't have the drawback of costing more crits.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mister D, on 13 June 2015 - 07:18 PM, said:

What would be the point of STD engines then?

I hear what you're saying, and IS will eventually get Light Fusion engines that will be exactly like Clan-XL.

I don't think you'll ever get PGI to even acknowledge the thought of making standard XL's work like that though, even with as much balance as it could bring to the game.

No they won't they will weigh 75% as much as a standard engine. Clan XL is 50%.

[Sjorpha]

LFE will be a well balanced engine for IS, as it is in between std and XL without obseleting either of them, which is great. It will function exactly as I wished for above, three distinct engines.

Still leaves the problem of clan XL (and clan DHS) being a strict upgrade over IS xl, which is very bad design and what drives forth bandaids like extreme quirks. Clan tech as a whole is bad game design actually, but the weapons can be tweaked a little more easily.

[Ace Selin]

Poisoner, on 13 June 2015 - 07:09 PM, said:

I know its a TT rule that IS mechs with XL motors die from losing a side torso, but since PGI likes to pick and choose what rules they enforce, why continue to enforce this one?

My reasoning is, if IS mechs need huge buffs to armor and structure while having to take an XL to keep up with lightning fast clan mechs in order to stay relevant, why not just make both the clan and IS XL engines have to lose both side torsos or the CT before dying?

I think it could be a positive thing.

GOOD IDEA. I LIKE IT.

[Destoroyah]

You miss understood my point. The IS XL sidetorso's would be slightly more durable then a clan XL so while the IS still dies from a single Side Torso loss it just takes alittle more damage to destroy it. The Clan XL will still be much more durable then the IS XL cause you got to take out both torsos for a kill which means all that armor and structure on both sides.

[Averen]

Aresye Kerensky, on 14 June 2015 - 12:41 AM, said:

For the same firepower as a 65t Jagermech, the 85t Warhawk has Clan XL but has low slung arms and weighs more.

For the same firepower as an 85t Warhawk, the Jagermech has high mounted arms and weighs less, but has IS XL.

Give IS the same advantages of Clan XL, the 65t Jagermech now has the advantage over the 85t Warhawk.

Wait for the cauldron born, that's gonna be a true balance mess. There you'll get your 65t mech with an 'advantage over the 85t Warhawk'.
If you'd ever want to do something as stupid as using a warhawk for dual gauß.

I doubt PGI will fix this mess, tho, they're too afraid of scaring off players (which is an irony, because they're quite succesfull at it). Maximum is a slight nerf when it goes CBill. Maybe a small nerf revert when they introduce new premium-omnipods, you know, the usual p2w jazz.

Edited by Averen, 14 June 2015 - 06:31 AM.

[Johnny Z]

Inner Sphere XL engines cannot be the same as Omni Xl simply because Omni mechs do have the drawback of not being able to change engines. This situation will be improving soon for some mechs with the addition of MASC , which will allow Omni mechs to adjust their speed and weight, at least to a degree.

The main problem is that the gap between Omni XL and Inner Sphere engines is huge and will be even worse after MASC. So there isnt a question if there has to be balancing done to close that gap, the only question is what.

SO far out of all the ideas floating around the best seem to be more durability for the Inner Sphere standard engine, which makes sense, more weight for more durability, and a shutdown for the IS XL on side blow rather than total destruction and possibly more durability, because a shutdown at that point would end the match anyway.

Neither of these ideas would make the IS engines equal an Omni engine but would close the gap a bit. The amount of durability would be up for debate and could be adjusted. With quirks the durability issues may already have been addressed for the most part. Which leaves the shutdown for IS XL's. That IS engines need more durability or not will be ongoing debate I am sure, although it isnt to bad at the moment.

The IS LFE is an easy way out, but for me balancing whats in game already seems the best way. Not really sure what to think of the LFE to be honest.

Edited by Johnny Z, 14 June 2015 - 08:14 AM.

[MerryIguana]

I dont want to have to rebuy 90% of my IS engines. LFE would do that.

[Johnny Z]

Well MASC is a new addition to the game which does adress some Omni engine weaknesses and thats great. LFE and possibly Lostech weapons fall into this realm. Completely new additions and would have to be added in a balanced way once everything in game is stable. The IS XL shutdown should be added first to see how it plays out. I have totally convinced myself IS XL shutdown is a must.

I am thinking Lostech weapons could be limited to one per mech and have some change in stats of some sort. Just a vague idea. Also these could only be gained through questing for Lostech weapon caches(lore based idea). Which is impossible in game at the moment so....

I have no idea what would be balanced for LFE.

Edited by Johnny Z, 14 June 2015 - 08:35 AM.