38 replies to this topic

[Festus vanGeck]

... so I may have accidentally bought a Vindicator. Feeling that it's not armoured enough and doesn't have the "oomph" I'm looking for, I figured I'd try running it as a support mech. I mounted BAP, dual AMS with plenty of ammo, a tag, JJs and some laz0rs on it, and glued myself to the assault lance.

After losing 6 or 7 games in a row I'm beginning to think that:

A. PUGs can't properly take advantage of a support mech OR
B. I gurgle donkey balls OR
C. The team benefits more from an angry HBK4P lazering limbs off of everything that can't run fast enough, than a Vindi loaded with helpful combat appliances, tea and cookies.

Any thoughts on this?

Edited by Festus vanGeck, 01 June 2015 - 07:17 AM.

[odiemoncrew]

i'd have to go with D. an salty HBK-P or HBK-P(C) pilot with a coolshot & a UAV, who also knows the maps
and pops the UAV so the team of incompetents can see their little red triangles, so they know where they
can attempt to shoot at & fail

[Spheroid]

Strip the BAP. The AA is somewhat less tanky than the other variants though not extremely so. Also you are running a non-elited mech which is always a huge determinant of success or failure.

Removing the TAG and BAP free more mass for the AMS role, something that is not always needed in the current meta. If going down that stand behind the frontline and bodyguard/mop up as needed.

I have had great success pairing various size single LRMs with large lasers. Keeping a TAG in the head will net good assists in addition to points you pick up from indirect fire.

[Rogue Jedi]

in the solo queue you can get away with playing a support Mech, however your team may not make as good use of it as an organized team would in the group queue or CW.

if you want to play that role make sure you have some mid-long range weapons, otherwise you will just be following them doing little else for most of the match

your Vindicator has some significant quirks for PPCs, if you put in an XL255, Double Heat Sinks and Endo Steel you will be able to mount your 2 AMS, some jumpjets, a pair of PPCs and still have space for some backup weapons ^{(2 each ether SL, ML, or MPL)} depending on how many Jets you want, however that load out would cost about 6 million on top of initial purchase price.

LRMs ^{(mainly to encourage the enemy to keep their heads down)} or (ER) Large Lasers would not hurt if you do not want PPCs (or cannot afford 6mil on a refit.

[Appogee]

This whole "I am piloting a support Mech" malarky aggravates me greatly.

I don't want ''support Mechs" on my team ... whatever they are. I want "11 other guys in Mechs shooting the enemy and killing them".

This is not a trivial issue. I regularly see my PUG team lose matches because we're carrying guys who declare themselves to be in "support mechs". They're the guys are standing at the back not shooting, hiding behind hills observing the battle, standing behind an Assault "providing ECM" instead of outgoing damage, wandering off around the map, and most commonly, boating LRMs without TAG/BAP or any useful backup weapon.

While a 12-man executing a pre-planned battle strategy may well designate roles for Mechs, and have them work in tandem or lances, there is no such thing as a "support Mech". Put that idea right out of your mind.

[Alienized]

a pure support mech that doesnt bite is just a dead corpse getting dragged around.

you have to make sure to not be passive all along with ams, tag and bap. you need to hurt your enemies too.


vindicator is a mobile fire-support mech. keep the ams, throw out the tag and put PPC in it. they disable ECM for a short time too if you hit with them.

[Nik Reaper]

You could try something like this http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b08d694bcaed2d1 and keep at range or if you really want to "aid" the team go with something like this http://mwo.smurfy-ne...82efc5eac43825f .

But yes running support is not something to do unless you already deal massive damage, dual ams is something you can do but in the end the thing that helps your team the most is dead ppl that no longer shoot at them...

[IraqiWalker]

Festus vanGeck, on 01 June 2015 - 07:17 AM, said:

... so I may have accidentally bought a Vindicator. Feeling that it's not armoured enough and doesn't have the "oomph" I'm looking for, I figured I'd try running it as a support mech. I mounted BAP, dual AMS with plenty of ammo, a tag, JJs and some laz0rs on it, and glued myself to the assault lance.

After losing 6 or 7 games in a row I'm beginning to think that:

A. PUGs can't properly take advantage of a support mech OR
B. I gurgle donkey balls OR
C. The team benefits more from an angry HBK4P lazering limbs off of everything that can't run fast enough, than a Vindi loaded with helpful combat appliances, tea and cookies.

Any thoughts on this?

As someone who runs support builds in the solo queue, and has done so a lot over the past 2 years I can tell you without a shred of doubt:

It's A. All the way through. Your team almost never knows you're running support, and when they do know, they don't know how to use it, because 90% of them don't understand the meaning of teamwork. Not to mention that sometimes you end up covering the assaults, which can go one of 2 ways:

1- They know what they're doing, but the rest of your team is stupid, and force feed themselves into the enemy PPCs.

2- They don't know what they're doing, and you lose because your assault mechs are piloted by idiots with the collective IQ of a banana. Rest of your team puts up a decent fight, but your assaults don't do diddly.

Support builds are truly appreciated in group drops. Because you know there are always a few players on the team who know about it, and can use it well. In solo queue, it's an uphill battle, because the games where someone takes proper advantage of 1 or 2 support mechs on the team, while magical, are very few and far in between.

[sycocys]

In solo pug - "support" mechs are mostly a waste.

Because most pugs lack the concept of teamwork, much less you have no idea what anyone else is running going in, the best support you can provide is damage.

[SnowFox]

I love my Vindie AA for its nice jumping ability. And I have a spotter build that makes the MRR happy as all can be.

Puggin solo can be a bit harsh regardless of what you are running narc seems to do ok for me though on that note

[Spleenslitta]

Vindicator 1AA is my best medium mech bar none. It has a lot of good qualities.

- Fast and 6JJs make it capable of roofjumping and climbing into places unaccesible by most medium or heavier mechs.
- Good torso pitch range makes it really good at shooting from high/low places with it's torso weapons.
- Shoot straight backwards with your arm weapons while retreating when it's elited because of good torso/arm yaw.
- Head energy and missile slots are high mounted for shooting above cover.

It's one of the few medium mechs capable of doing my patented hit & run light mech tactics.
http://mwomercs.com/...-tactics-guide/
Ice Ferret and Cicada could do it too but they just cannot take the same shortcuts as the Vindicator because they don't have JJ's.

As for the 1R and 1X variants. They are a bit different but if your a bit more...cautious with them they work fine.
Hero Vindicator is pretty good actually.

[ProfessorD]

"
IS THERE ANY REASON TO PILOT A SUPPORT MECH IN SOLO QUEUE?

"

No. There is not. You need to shoot and kill the enemy.

[JC Daxion]

If i said it once, i'll say it again.. all mechs are support mechs. You support one another and win.


My favorite support mech is my jester, Dual ams+ 3 tons, Bap+range module, dual LL's, and 4 MPL's for when things get up-close and personal. I support my team by targeting from afar with my crazy radar range, while providing AMS, cover and BAP to cancel ECM when it get's close.

The mech is also one of the fastest heavies around, and has JJ's for added mobility. the 2 LL's work great for longer range encounters, but when the going get's close 4MPL's work very well.

As far as KDR goes, it is one of my highest rated mechs.. and also has one of my higher win% as well. I generally run as lance support, helping push with assaults while giving them cover. and often i will lead the charge as my mech also has seismic, so when we come close to rounding a corner i spot a sec, to see if my radar is clear for a hard corner push.

Yes you can build a bad support mech, But you can also build ones that are great for the PUG world.. But like all mechs, you should be able to do some decent damage as well, and even a commando has enough weight for both.

Festus vanGeck, on 01 June 2015 - 07:17 AM, said:

... so I may have accidentally bought a Vindicator. Feeling that it's not armoured enough and doesn't have the "oomph" I'm looking for, I figured I'd try running it as a support mech. I mounted BAP, dual AMS with plenty of ammo, a tag, JJs and some laz0rs on it, and glued myself to the assault lance.

Any thoughts on this?

are you running an XL? that can free up some weight, But, if i were you, i'd pick either Bap, OR tag especially on a lighter mech. In fact even on my heavier ones, out side of select builds that just run hot as heck, i will also pick one or the other. I do have one thunder bolt build, that i run both BAP, with a tag in the single arm slot, and basically use it as a shield arm for the most part, so if i lose a single tag, i don't really mind, and being able to shut down someones ECM at range it is very helpful. The mech already runs hot, and adding the laser just reduces my total DPS in the end, and if i add another heat sink it really doesn't really boost it enough to make it worth loosing that option.

But again as i said, that mech is an exception than a rule for me. I pick one support tool.. ECM or Bap, or the rarer occasion Narc (though honestly i'm still looking for that perfect Narc mech) But i really rather use it on a heavier mech, and mainly for a nice ECM shut down.) Often pugs, will actually target the Narc'd mech.. Just use it one at a time, and re-apply to the same mech if it isn't dead. While saying, target the narc'd mech over voice, and chat as well. If you are playing a support mech in a pug, it is your job to make sure you are supporting int he right places, and making sure you are narc'ing good targets that the pug can take advantage of.

i think you are leaning a little to heavy on the support only side, try balancing it for a much better result.

Perhaps something like this, leaning towards quirks.. it has good speed, and 4 JJ's, keeps the dual AMS+a single tag. It is a hotter running mech, with it's optimum range in the 200-300 area. You could also swap out and go dual PPC's but it runs even hotter but i don't like having no other back up weapon in case a light get's close there is nothing you can do at that point.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...50629722ff51202

Edited by JC Daxion, 02 June 2015 - 01:44 AM.

[Johny Rocket]

Appogee, on 01 June 2015 - 08:48 AM, said:

This whole "I am piloting a support Mech" malarky aggravates me greatly.

I don't want ''support Mechs" on my team ... whatever they are. I want "11 other guys in Mechs shooting the enemy and killing them".

This is not a trivial issue. I regularly see my PUG team lose matches because we're carrying guys who declare themselves to be in "support mechs". They're the guys are standing at the back not shooting, hiding behind hills observing the battle, standing behind an Assault "providing ECM" instead of outgoing damage, wandering off around the map, and most commonly, boating LRMs without TAG/BAP or any useful backup weapon.

While a 12-man executing a pre-planned battle strategy may well designate roles for Mechs, and have them work in tandem or lances, there is no such thing as a "support Mech". Put that idea right out of your mind.

That attitude aggravates me greatly. Why would you not welcome a guy who gave up tonnage to help you be better? In pug my reasons for supporting are all self serving and rely on my team for nothing.

I run what I call support snipers, My usual build for this is a 55t IS medium with 1-2 big lasers and lrm5-10 = 20-30. Sometimes I run Baps sometimes tag for me 1st you 2nd. Fire support call for rain. My 2N is beautiful for this and giving cover.

Or I'll run an ecm support mech and offer the fatties cover if they promise not to step on me, but my Bug 3M carries 1x LPL 3x MPL and my RVN 3L carries 2x ERLL and an lrm5 for harassing.

If you are on my lance and don't want to make use of what I bring, have a nice game, I have a knack for finding teammates to work with or I'll even run off and do my own killing.

Edited by Tractor Joe, 02 June 2015 - 05:58 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Appogee, on 01 June 2015 - 08:48 AM, said:

there is no such thing as a "support Mech". Put that idea right out of your mind.

Sorry buddy, that is flat out wrong. Not only are support mechs a thing, but even in 12 mans, they exist. Also, keep in mind: No mech can deploy without weaponry. Which means that they are all providing outgoing damage, one way or another.

[Appogee]

IraqiWalker, on 02 June 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

...in 12 mans, they exist.

...which is exactly what I said in my post.

IraqiWalker, on 02 June 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

Also, keep in mind: No mech can deploy without weaponry. Which means that they are all providing outgoing damage, one way or another.

No. My observation in the PUG queue is that people who declare themselves to be in "support mechs" (they even tell you this in chat straight after the drop) typically don't engage. They may be carrying weapons, but they're hiding at the back, 'providing ECM', or 'scouting on ahead' and other things which shouldn't be seen as a replacement for shooting at the enemy.

There was a thread here just last week where a guy was complaining how he'd spent the whole game "hiding behind a mountain providing ECM" and his team had lost. Not surprising when they had 11 or fewer people actually fighting.

We need to remove this "I am in a support Mech so I have an excuse not to engage" thinking from people's minds. The support we most need in our PUG teams is to have all 12 guys engaging the enemy.

As I said in my earlier post... 12 mans are different. 12-mans declare mech and lance roles as part of a broader battle strategy. But that's not what we're talking about above.

[skorpionet]

In solo queque there are valid support mechs and are LRM boats. When MM puts in a team a lrm boat and an ECM tag or narc mech (or a skilled light with UAV) is a party.

[jss78]

I occasionally run what I regard as support mechs. With that I mean running some combination of ECM, BAP and (double/triple) AMS, to help my team. In each case I carry enough armament to be able to "pull my weight" damage-wise, though.

For example I have a CDA-3M which is basically equipped as an "electronic warfare" mech -- I stick with the group, providing ECM cover to as many friendles as possible, while also packing a Sensor Range module and BAP (to provide radar locks over very long distances). And while doing this contribute to the fighting (UAC5 and 4xML).

I have clearly the best W/L ratio of all my mechs in that CDA-3M, so based on that little data, what I do seems to be working. So I wouldn't say "support is dead", at least if we understand "support" as "bringing some tools to help friendlies", while also joining the fight.

Now, just sitting back with your ECM/AMS and feeling good about yourself was probably dead from the get-go.

[Appogee]

Tractor Joe, on 02 June 2015 - 05:54 PM, said:

I run what I call support snipers,

So you stuck the word 'support' in front of the standard role of 'sniper' and declared yourself to be a 'support Mech'. And you also run BAP and TAG for your own benefit, and the rest of us might get some benefit from it.

Well, that's great ... You may as well invent and trademark the terms "Support Laser Vomit", "Support Brawler" and "Support Skirmisher" if you want. (I ran a AC40 Jager last week. I guess that was a "Support BoomJager"...?)

But all of these strange new terms that you invented have no relevance to the kinds of 'support Mechs' actually being discussed in this thread.

Edited by Appogee, 03 June 2015 - 01:17 AM.

[Appogee]

skorpionet, on 03 June 2015 - 12:39 AM, said:

In solo queque there are valid support mechs and are LRM boats. When MM puts in a team a lrm boat and an ECM tag or narc mech (or a skilled light with UAV) is a party.

And when the MM doesn't, the LRM boat is largely useless and dead weight for your team to carry.

I know this because I very recently tried to level an Orion VA in the PUG queue by making it a LRM boat. I had a few backup weapons, but most of my tonnage was devoted to LRMs. (I carried TAG and BAP and Artemis to try to be as self-sufficient as possible.)

Most matches, that LRM boat VA did not carry its weight for the team. There's too much ECM, too few NARCs, and in my Elo bracket, too many players taking Radar Dep Modules and too smart to stand out in the open taking LRMs. When I converted that VA to SRMs and lasers, my damage and kills at least doubled.

So I don't agree that even LRM boats are valid "support mechs" in the PUG queue.

(Sure if you team up with a NARCer in the group queue, or as part of a 12-man battle strategy, it's a different matter. Then again, I can't remember a time recently when my unit came up against an LRM-heavy 12-man that we couldn't defeat.)

Edited by Appogee, 03 June 2015 - 01:19 AM.