143 replies to this topic

[Average Pilot]

I would like to know what is the official PGI position on tactical retreats from a battle that has gone sour, which so far as I can tell, uses the out-of-bounds function.

I have heard and read many conflicting positions by players while in a match and in forum posts. Some say it's legitimate, others that PGI will levy a penalty (I guess avoiding combat is the crime), others that it should have some sort of game-based penalty like a C-bill fine or something.

To me, it makes no sense, when the match score is 1-8 or greater in favor of the enemy, to engage in combat thinking you will stand any chance at all to make a useful difference (I find myself here with some frequency piloting a sniper mech as my job is to pick apart enemy mechs from cover and call for indirect fire rather than engage them directly). In the end, the outnumbered player will only give opposing players more salvage money and a kill. Also remembering the BT addage that "life is cheap; battlemechs aren't", it makes sense for a character in the game to want to retreat from a hopelessly outnumbered engagement and save his mech for another day rather than become dispossessed.

I've read a few posts about "suicide farming" for c-bills, but that isn't what I'm talking about here. Those that just run from a battle arbitrarily should rightly be scorned and perhaps penalized. I'm referring to what in real life would be a tactical retreat to save war materiel and live to fight another day.

Thank you.

Edited by Average Pilot, 16 June 2015 - 02:24 PM.

[One Medic Army]

If you still have weapons, use them.

You pay zero penalty for dying, and are rewarded for every point of damage you deal before death.

The only time I will suicide is if I have no weapons left, or the override decides for me.

[darkkterror]

I don't see the point in using out-of-bounds to "retreat." You can get more XP and C-Bills from the damage you deal and any component destructions or kills you manage to get through fighting, even if you are hopelessly outnumbered. You gain no benefit by retreating.

[InspectorG]

Some fragile egos out there just cant handle someone else killing them.

These are the people you obviously want on your team.

[Average Pilot]

InspectorG, on 16 June 2015 - 02:33 PM, said:

Some fragile egos out there just cant handle someone else killing them.

These are the people you obviously want on your team.

Ok, I don't think it needs to get snarky. I'm asking a legitimate question.

It seems to me that PGI is trying to make this game function in a way that is true to source material and timelines. If that's true, and we are behaving like 31st century mech pilots, it makes sense to attempt to save one's self and one's mech from a hopeless engagement (whether I have functioning weapons or not) unless dying is the point of the exercise. All the arguments above focus on adding game stats (a few points here, a little damage there), but that's not the point-of-view I'm coming at this from.

I don't know how to quote here from a post in another thread, but user Murphy7 made a good argument against the points position in rebutting a statement that there was no good reason to go out of bounds:

"Patently false. Once in battle, you are required to stay around to the end and die vaingloriously, or required by the conventions of the game to allow the other team the opportunity to blow off your legs for their best monetary and XP gain?

Nope.

While I would welcome and invite a formal game option that allowed for a successful retreat from the battlefield, absent that heading out of bounds is really all there is.

In many of the TT scenario books, retreat zones for battles that turned bad were indicated - some battles were set up as fighting retreats, where an objective was to move off the map at an indicated edge or zone.

In MW:O, I have personally had several MM hiccups that have resulted in a 4 on 8 or 5 on 8 battle to start, with myself on the shorter side. The conversation in team chat is whether to fight or run? I have done all options - kept to the field of battle and died in a loss, kept to the field of battle and eked out a victory, fled the field of battle rather than stick out the situation.

Lore-wise, the old stamp on the boxed set stated it for us "In the 31st century life is cheap, but Battlemechs aren't." Fleeing to preserve the war materiel is appropriate.

Game-wise, I'm not sorry that somoene fleeing the field denied you additional XP or Cbills or padding your stats. Too bad."

In any event, what I'm interested in at the end of the day is what PGI's official position is on the practice.

Edited by Average Pilot, 16 June 2015 - 02:47 PM.

[LORD TSARKON]

If you suicide too many times in a Row... either by Overheating or Out of Bounds... you will get a temporary ban (a couple of hours to a full day)...

This has been in effect Since Jan 2013... I can confirm this myself

[RavenKnight86]

I think it's poor sport. Not only are you denying yourself additional XP and Cbills but you are denying the enemy team these as well. Personally I wish they would implement a penalty for those who suicide by going out of bounds.

[DarkMetalBlade]

LORD TSARKON, on 16 June 2015 - 02:51 PM, said:

If you suicide too many times in a Row... either by Overheating or Out of Bounds... you will get a temporary ban (a couple of hours to a full day)...

This has been in effect Since Jan 2013... I can confirm this myself

That applies only if that is the sole thing that you've done. If one at least tries to fight it out at one point, they're under no obligation to become a punching bag for the opposition.

[Mudhutwarrior]

My understanding is if you make a habit of it PGI will have words with you. Never spoke to anyone that has though. If its a stomp and I am last man and already on the edge I have no issues with it. It's called denying satisfaction. I had one match the other day where I ran the edge hoping to draw in a pursuer. Dude followed but their LRMS got me first. Betty was up to 3 for the third time. I will always give it a try but if its hopeless I will and have just let the counter go to far and blow myself up. More driven by what mood I am in. If they are ragging in chat and being richards during the match bet your *** i am heading for the hills.

[InspectorG]

Whats a legit reason for going out of bounds in MWO????

BT you could opt to have R&R for a scenario or campaign...which is LACKING in MWO. Used to have it, but players apparently hated it. Out of Bounds is likely a hold over from that.

You get a fresh mech each match, so that argument is bunk.

Do it too many times and people will call you a goon or something. You are essentially refusing to play based on arbitrary conditions of self perceived 'fairness'.
Ive had countless drops where my team had 4 disconnects, newbs who couldnt even steer their mech, trolls/goons teamkilling, /etc. Still played, got my 40k Cbills after i got rolled.

What is the point of 'retreating' in a one-off match?
PGI adds new objectives/depth to CW...retreat may be acceptable.

MWO is a zero-sum(usually) combat-sim/FPS. You cant handle dying in that, well, life is gonna be rough.

[Xetelian]

As long as you're not running to a corner and shutting down for the remained of 15 minutes I don't care.

[TWIAFU]

Average Pilot, on 16 June 2015 - 02:23 PM, said:

I would like to know what is the official PGI position on tactical retreats from a battle that has gone sour, which so far as I can tell, uses the out-of-bounds function.


Thank you.

Official PGI position, the ONLY one that matters, is;

Exploiting / Griefing / Non-Participation

Our definition of Exploiting / Griefing includes:

Wilfully or repeatedly destroying Teammate or Lancemate 'Mechs.
Wilfully or repeatedly self-destructing one's 'Mech by Overheating or going Out-of-Bounds
Wilfully or repeatedly disconnecting during a match.
Wilfully or repeatedly spamming in-game chat.
Persistent non-participation in core game mechanics.
Wilfully or repeatedly taking advantage of an issue for personal gain.

http://mwomercs.com/...nduct-expanded/

Willfully going out of bounds, at all, is Non-participation and reportable.

Enough reports, verified by PGI, and a warning is issued. Continued violations and banning.

[Bilbo]

InspectorG, on 16 June 2015 - 03:01 PM, said:

Whats a legit reason for going out of bounds in MWO????

BT you could opt to have R&R for a scenario or campaign...which is LACKING in MWO. Used to have it, but players apparently hated it. Out of Bounds is likely a hold over from that.

You get a fresh mech each match, so that argument is bunk.

Do it too many times and people will call you a goon or something. You are essentially refusing to play based on arbitrary conditions of self perceived 'fairness'.
Ive had countless drops where my team had 4 disconnects, newbs who couldnt even steer their mech, trolls/goons teamkilling, /etc. Still played, got my 40k Cbills after i got rolled.

What is the point of 'retreating' in a one-off match?
PGI adds new objectives/depth to CW...retreat may be acceptable.

MWO is a zero-sum(usually) combat-sim/FPS. You cant handle dying in that, well, life is gonna be rough.

I have had games where it would have been more beneficial for everyone involved if I had simply walked out of bounds and exploded myself. Maybe not as funny though.

[TWIAFU]

Bilbo, on 16 June 2015 - 03:06 PM, said:

I have had games where it would have been more beneficial for everyone involved if I had simply walked out of bounds and exploded myself. Maybe not as funny though.

That is usually my first match before coffee kicked in...

Saline? Where is that in reference to say, Lansing?

[MechWarrior3671771]

"it makes no sense, when the match score is 1-8 or greater in favor of the enemy, to engage in combat thinking you will stand any chance at all to make a useful difference"

There are two responses to this, both of which I think are valid:

1) pulling an out of bounds suicide is silly because it robs you of a chance to gain experience. When I am last man standing, I try to pull a drive-by or drive-thru to see what I can get away with. Because the learning experience may come in handy when I am only down 1-3.

2) conversely, on large maps like Tourmaline or Terra Therma, running out of bounds is legit because it saves the other team time trying to cover distance to get to you.

Edited by Fenrisulvyn, 16 June 2015 - 03:14 PM.

[bad arcade kitty]

i recall a funny match where a cicada lost her (cicadas are female for me) nerve ('incoming missile!', 'incoming missile!', 'incoming missile!') and ran out of bounds thinking she avoided being killed by me... when i was very afraid of her, having lost 3/5 of my weapon and was cored too. may be she was right though, i managed to finish a thunderbolt with that pitiful weapon later

RavenKnight86, on 16 June 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

I think it's poor sport. Not only are you denying yourself additional XP and Cbills but you are denying the enemy team these as well. Personally I wish they would implement a penalty for those who suicide by going out of bounds.

i don think so. i almost always respect more those who manage to deny me a sure kill or even flee&hide when badly damaged (i dont play skirmish/assault, so it doesn't extend the game much) than those who let me kill them

the former are a worthy opponent, the latter... they probably just want to grind c-bills

[Bilbo]

TWIAFU, on 16 June 2015 - 03:09 PM, said:

That is usually my first match before coffee kicked in...

Saline? Where is that in reference to say, Lansing?

Actually, I was referring to situations like this:
http://mwomercs.com/...in-pug-history/

Forgive me, I'm a transplant. Not entirely sure where Lansing is. Saline is just outside of Ann Arbor

SE of Lansing

Edited by Bilbo, 16 June 2015 - 03:18 PM.

[Average Pilot]

TWIAFU... Thank you for the link to the PGI COC. So, by letter of the "law", as it were, intentional or repeated self-destruction of a mech during a match, if reported, could result in drawing the ire of the game moderators. Understood - that's what I needed to know.

By way of commentary, I'm not sure I agree in spirit with the rule. Again, my meaning for that is it does not allow for a legitimate tactical option during a combat engagement (when I was in uniform, I can say I would never sit and fight out an overrun situation unless there were lives to be saved or escape was served by doing so). The "No Self-Destruct Rule" and the "Non-Participation in Core Game Mechanics" rule seem to suggest that the only tactical option, regardless of match odds at any given time, are to attempt to somehow meaningfully engage the enemy. The unfortunate part of this is that, invaribly in unbalanced scenarios, a player will more often be swamped by the majority of the remaining enemy force. Again, as a sniper using cover and concealment, I've been party to many matches where I am the remaining light mech, and the rest of the team is not only dead but has failed to score more than two kills on the enemy. If I have any advantage, I certainly use it, but once discovered, a sniper mech by design is not intended for a brawl, and thus dies fairly quickly regardless of piloting skill. I can sometimes manage a rolling retreat (hide site to hide site), but more often, it's a pointless exercise, and enemy players usually whine about covert maneuvers and evasion (though I suppose that's their problem, not mine).

Again, thanks for the feedback everyone.

[bad arcade kitty]

Average Pilot, on 16 June 2015 - 03:56 PM, said:

TWIAFU... Thank you for the link to the PGI COC. So, by letter of the "law", as it were, intentional or repeated self-destruction of a mech during a match, if reported, could result in drawing the ire of the game moderators. Understood - that's what I needed to know.

you misunderstand the coc

let me quote you the crucial part, it's the fine print, hid with a spoiler

To reiterate and clarify the Terms of Use on Prohibited Conduct: As an online game and an ongoing development, we do expect issues to be discovered by players. In cases where an issue can provide an unfair advantage, players are expected to refrain from manipulating these issues. Accidental triggering of an issue will rarely be of concern, though repeated abuse of any such issue reported to us will frequently be met with a warning or sanction. Intentionally joining a match for the sole purpose of disrupting gameplay through any means could be considered actionable.

[Average Pilot]

Fenrisulvyn, on 16 June 2015 - 03:13 PM, said:

2) conversely, on large maps like Tourmaline or Terra Therma, running out of bounds is legit because it saves the other team time trying to cover distance to get to you.

To your scenario above, on large area maps when I sniping (Alpine too), those are the maps where I will try to engage at a distance and will have lined up several fall-back positions in my mind for a rolling retreat moving toward a border for escape. I can at least in this instance score some additional damage or a kill. I also sometimes engage in active hunting, particularly if the team feedback is the remaining enemy mechs are in bad shape. I also use the latter tactic with a skulking light mech (Locust) and have had some success with it. So, escaping off the board has never been a go-to option for me; I've only used it when there's clearly no feasible way to bring the engagement to a successful conclusion.

bad arcade kitty, on 16 June 2015 - 04:04 PM, said:

Intentionally joining a match for the sole purpose of disrupting gameplay through any means could be considered actionable.

So... do you take that to mean that the above rules are only in effect if a player joins the match with the intent to do one of the prohibited actions, or is that a catch all to say that anything done intentionally by a player that we (PGI) haven't listed here can be actionable..?