54 replies to this topic

[Otto Cannon]

I think jets need to be faster and more powerful, but take longer to recharge.

I'd like to see them start with the speed you were moving on the ground, and be able to increase or decrease forward speed slightly in the air to make landing on top of things easier.

[Zfailboat]

Step 1. Return jump jets to previous state - or improve them.
Step 2. Make it so you generate double heat whilst using jump jets
Step 3. Once you stop using jump jets you cannot use them again for 6 seconds (to stop people bunny hopping to throw off hitreg)

[Felbombling]

The problem as I see it is that 1/2 the community feels it should be ok to mount one Jump Jet and be able to perform all manner of jump jet attacks, be it pop-tarting, jump-brawling, etc. The other half of the community wants people to pay for the Jump Jet performance by purchasing multiple Jump Jets for a Mech. One version allows for extra weapons and ammo. The other version has restrictions that lessen the impact of having useful Jump Jets. I don't think we can agree as a community, so PGI is screwed no matter what they do.

Personally, I'd make Jump Jet usage tied directly to engine size and Mech tonnage. You take the engine rating and divide it by the Mech tonnage, rounded down. This is the maximum Jump Jet allowance for the Mech. Now apply a nasty and sharp bell curve, where performance is greatly impacted by the number of Jump Jets a Mech mounts, up to the established maximum. So, a player could mount one Jump Jet and get pretty crappy performance, or they could mount the maximum and get excellent performance.

Using that bell curve, all Mechs would be treated equal. A slow Mech like the Highlander would be treated much better with three Jump Jets than it would with one, while a fast Mech like a Jenner would be treated much better with seven Jump Jets over one. This way you make players invest in their Jump Jets, making Clan players with locked Jump Jets feel better.

I'm all for reticule shake, as well... it should be difficult to land shots in mid air.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

StaggerCheck, on 17 June 2015 - 06:52 PM, said:

The problem as I see it is that 1/2 the community feels it should be ok to mount one Jump Jet and be able to perform all manner of jump jet attacks, be it pop-tarting, jump-brawling, etc. The other half of the community wants people to pay for the Jump Jet performance by purchasing multiple Jump Jets for a Mech. One version allows for extra weapons and ammo. The other version has restrictions that lessen the impact of having useful Jump Jets. I don't think we can agree as a community, so PGI is screwed no matter what they do.

Personally, I'd make Jump Jet usage tied directly to engine size and Mech tonnage. You take the engine rating and divide it by the Mech tonnage, rounded down. This is the maximum Jump Jet allowance for the Mech. Now apply a nasty and sharp bell curve, where performance is greatly impacted by the number of Jump Jets a Mech mounts, up to the established maximum. So, a player could mount one Jump Jet and get pretty crappy performance, or they could mount the maximum and get excellent performance.

Using that bell curve, all Mechs would be treated equal. A slow Mech like the Highlander would be treated much better with three Jump Jets than it would with one, while a fast Mech like a Jenner would be treated much better with seven Jump Jets over one. This way you make players invest in their Jump Jets, making Clan players with locked Jump Jets feel better.

I'm all for reticule shake, as well... it should be difficult to land shots in mid air.

There's a simple fix for that.

Take all the stock JJs or none of them.

[Mcgral18]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 17 June 2015 - 07:16 PM, said:

There's a simple fix for that.

Take all the stock JJs or none of them.

PGI's variants have issues with that.


TT rules are max JJs=walking movement points.
Some don't mount that many, although most tend to.

Jester and Huggin come to mind.

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 17 June 2015 - 07:21 PM, said:

PGI's variants have issues with that.


TT rules are max JJs=walking movement points.
Some don't mount that many, although most tend to.

Jester and Huggin come to mind.

-Some Shadow Hawks use 3 JJs when they have a limit of 5
-The JJ Nova Cat variant uses 2 JJs when it has a limit of 4
-The Arctic Cheetah has a limit of 8, but only uses 6
-The Mist Lynx uses 6 instead of 7
-The Osiris uses 4, but it has a limit of 8


Those are the ones that I know of off the top of my head.

I've never really been a fan of the "take everything or take nothing" approach to JJs, really. Just make the JJ formula drastically favor large quantities of jets, instead of forcing it down peoples' throats.

Edited by FupDup, 17 June 2015 - 07:24 PM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Could always have it shake the crosshair anytime your lift or decline goes past 3 fps.
Screenshake should soft transition as well.

Then Add a shake multiplier based strictly on tonnage, not by weight class.

Example. (just for shits)
30 ton spider would have 0.1 multiplier.
35 ton FS would have 0.13 multiplier
45 ton blackjack would have 0.3 multiplier.
Just so there is a difference between individual mechs, and not just the weight class itself.

[Kiiyor]

Mystere, on 17 June 2015 - 05:59 PM, said:

Why are people so afraid of the return of the poptarts?

I for one want to see who wins: laser vomit or poptart ...

and shooting clay pigeons.

Heh, with my hitreg, I never want to see it return. Most poptarts at high ping are invincible.

[Ultimax]

Just to re-iterate, 1 tweet from people who are not me is probably worth 50 posts in any thread about JJs.

It's that huge, please do it.

[Alardus]

StaggerCheck, on 17 June 2015 - 06:52 PM, said:

The problem as I see it is that 1/2 the community feels it should be ok to mount one Jump Jet and be able to perform all manner of jump jet attacks, be it pop-tarting, jump-brawling, etc. The other half of the community wants people to pay for the Jump Jet performance by purchasing multiple Jump Jets for a Mech. One version allows for extra weapons and ammo. The other version has restrictions that lessen the impact of having useful Jump Jets. I don't think we can agree as a community, so PGI is screwed no matter what they do.

Personally, I'd make Jump Jet usage tied directly to engine size and Mech tonnage. You take the engine rating and divide it by the Mech tonnage, rounded down. This is the maximum Jump Jet allowance for the Mech. Now apply a nasty and sharp bell curve, where performance is greatly impacted by the number of Jump Jets a Mech mounts, up to the established maximum. So, a player could mount one Jump Jet and get pretty crappy performance, or they could mount the maximum and get excellent performance.

Using that bell curve, all Mechs would be treated equal. A slow Mech like the Highlander would be treated much better with three Jump Jets than it would with one, while a fast Mech like a Jenner would be treated much better with seven Jump Jets over one. This way you make players invest in their Jump Jets, making Clan players with locked Jump Jets feel better.

I'm all for reticule shake, as well... it should be difficult to land shots in mid air.

Quote

Mech Tonnage Jump Jet Weight
20–55 .5 tons/Jump MP
60–85 1 ton/Jump MP
90–100 2 tons/Jump MP

Quote

BattleMechs may be equipped with jump jets in their legs
and/or backs to allow jump movement. The weight of the jump
jets depends on the weight of the BattleMech and the Jumping
MP desired, as shown in the Jump Jet Weight Table.
Each jump jet gives the BattleMech one Jumping
Movement Point, so that a BattleMech with four jump jets would
have a Jumping MP of 4. A BattleMech cannot be constructed
with Jumping MP greater than its Walking MP.

Quote

Though it is designed for long-range support,
because of its slow speed, Bryan decides to give it jump
jets. Looking at the Jump Jet Weight Table, Bryan sees
that each Jump MP will cost him a ton. He decides to give
his ’Mech the maximum Jumping MP of 4, at a cost of 4
tons. This leaves him with 35 tons (39 – 4 = 35). Each jump
jet exhaust port requires a critical slot. Bryan places two
in the right and left torsos, leaving 10 critical slots open
in those locations.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/UrbanMech

Quote

mounting a pair of Pitban 6000 jump jets for a jumping distance of 60 meters.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Panther

Quote

sporting six and a half tons of armor, and maneuverable, thanks to four Lexington Lifter jump jets split between both legs for a total jumping distance of 120 meters

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Vindicator

Quote

Four jump jets give it a jumping capability of up to 120 meters which, while not up to par with the greater distances of 'Mechs like the Phoenix Hawk, allows the Vindicator the ability to outmaneuver most heavier 'Mechs,

You guys act like being able to put on only a few jump jets is the end of the world. It still costs mechs in tonnage and crits to place jump jets. The trade-off for mechs has always been maneuverability/firepower/armor. You're going to give up some firepower or some armor to get JJ on any mech.

The design constraints originally in BT already punish taking less than max JJs.

[Mcgral18]

Ultimatum X, on 17 June 2015 - 07:39 PM, said:

Just to re-iterate, 1 tweet from people who are not me is probably worth 50 posts in any thread about JJs.

It's that huge, please do it.

Man, Twitter makes me feel illiterate...

140 characters is hard to make a thought out post. I sent one to Russ.

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 17 June 2015 - 07:48 PM, said:

Man, Twitter makes me feel illiterate...

140 characters is hard to make a thought out post. I sent one to Russ.

It's frustrating for someone who can be a bit...verbose...such as myself, and unfortunately putting other people's account names uses your 140 char, WTF is that nonsense?

It's not for me, but it is the way of things and it gets crap done.

So if that means I have to send tweets to fix JJs, tweets will be sent!

[Gas Guzzler]

Xetelian, on 17 June 2015 - 05:00 PM, said:

While it may have more than one use, the most common is a detriment to the game, if we want JJs we have to sacrifice something it might as well be this.

BS. You can fix some of the terrible jump jets (especially the Class 1s) without making poptarting OP again. I guarantee it.

And anything that is OP is a detriment to the game, don't single out jumping in the air..

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 17 June 2015 - 08:48 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 June 2015 - 08:46 PM, said:

BS. You can fix some of the terrible jump jets (especially the Class 1s) without making poptarting OP again. I guarantee it.

Though, jumping Dual Gauss robots come to mind.

Easily fixed by a few touches, but that would require PGI to actually touch more than one thing.

[YueFei]

Use real physics? Rockets should accelerate, not near instantly reach top speed and then be barely capable of sustaining that speed when it's nowhere near terminal velocity.

That, and each JJ should add to the thrust linearly, with the 1st JJ just barely cancelling the weight. 2 JJs should jump like 5 times better than 1.

[Alardus]

YueFei, on 17 June 2015 - 08:53 PM, said:

Use real physics? Rockets should accelerate, not near instantly reach top speed and then be barely capable of sustaining that speed when it's nowhere near terminal velocity.

That, and each JJ should add to the thrust linearly, with the 1st JJ just barely cancelling the weight. 2 JJs should jump like 5 times better than 1.

That's pretty much what original BT rules did; match how much tonnage for JJ you put onto your mech to how high you could jump.

[Felbombling]

Alardus, on 17 June 2015 - 07:45 PM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/UrbanMech

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Panther

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Vindicator

You guys act like being able to put on only a few jump jets is the end of the world. It still costs mechs in tonnage and crits to place jump jets. The trade-off for mechs has always been maneuverability/firepower/armor. You're going to give up some firepower or some armor to get JJ on any mech.

The design constraints originally in BT already punish taking less than max JJs.

lolwut? Did you even read my post?

[Duke Nedo]

My flavor would be:

1. Don't increase heat! It hurts JJ-brawling more than it does poptarting
2. Fix JJ scaling so that it's more or less linear - the more you bring, the more thrust you get
3. Rather increase cooldown time to reduce poptarting over all dps
4. Otherwise keep everything like it is now. Firing while airborne should be allowed, it's fun, just discourage pogosticking by other means (like cooldown). We now also have slow PPCs and leg damage so I don't think poptarting will automatically come back in full force.

Also, don't pester Russ too much, you'll only force him off Twitter as well. He is the director of a company, he's not your puppet toy.... just saying.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 17 June 2015 - 10:49 PM.

[cSand]

I'd rather they stay as they are than almost any of the player ideas for "fixing" them, lol

THere are other uses for jets than [the] poptarting [boogeyman]

Edited by cSand, 17 June 2015 - 11:06 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

I still like the idea of 'Mechs jumping forcefully up into the air, but can't still think a good way to implement it with adjustable/controllable thrust.