49 replies to this topic

[Kassatsu]

It's literally just a matter of time before the EBJ gets massive negative energy quirks, but...




The only real 'disadvantage' is the fact that the EBJ is wider. It's also shorter. A bit lighter and less armored, but... Considering it can now out-timberwolf a timberwolf in the go-to build of what was it, last month? Yeah... Perfectly balanced and working as intended I'm sure.

[KHETTI]

EBJ can't tank anywhere near aswell as TBR and lacks the TBR's mobility, i think the TBR's crown is safe for now.

[the hedgehog]

And TBR has JJ more armor and some extra truedubs in engine.

[Kassatsu]

KHETTI, on 17 June 2015 - 06:35 PM, said:

EBJ can't tank anywhere near aswell as TBR and lacks the TBR's mobility, i think the TBR's crown is safe for now.

It's got some pretty good hitboxes. If you turn your actual legs you can twist well enough to direct fire to whichever side you want it on, though your CT will generally always get hit and for some reason your legs just soak up damage like crazy. Seriously. Every match I've died in my EBJ so far I lost a leg first.

It's also got infinitely superior laser vomit now thanks to the lack of negative energy quirks.

the hedgehog, on 17 June 2015 - 06:38 PM, said:

And TBR has JJ more armor and some extra truedubs in engine.

Anything past 10 is not a true double heat sink, even if it's "in" the engine. The EBJ has a 325 engine, so it has 10 true doubles just like the timberwolf. Unless they changed it when I wasn't looking.

Jump jets are practically worthless on the timberwolf so that's not really a concern either.

Edited by Kassatsu, 17 June 2015 - 06:39 PM.

[Wintersdark]

the hedgehog, on 17 June 2015 - 06:38 PM, said:

And TBR has JJ more armor and some extra truedubs in engine.

They're not truedubs. Only the first 10 are truedubs.

Kassatsu, on 17 June 2015 - 06:38 PM, said:

It's got some pretty good hitboxes. If you turn your actual legs you can twist well enough to direct fire to whichever side you want it on, though your CT will generally always get hit and for some reason your legs just soak up damage like crazy. Seriously. Every match I've died in my EBJ so far I lost a leg first.

It's also got infinitely superior laser vomit now thanks to the lack of negative energy quirks.

The EBJ certainly doesn't tank as well as a Timberwolf; however, it can push that damage faster and more efficiently than a Timberwolf does, now, so it depends:

Do you want tankiness and potential HoverJets (TBR), or damage output (EBJ)?


Edited out some silly wrongness Thanks Fup!

Edited by Wintersdark, 17 June 2015 - 06:59 PM.

[Mcgral18]

the hedgehog, on 17 June 2015 - 06:38 PM, said:

And TBR has JJ more armor and some extra truedubs in engine.

There can only be 10 TrueDubs; period.

Engine mounted are still PoorDubs.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

My best performing Twolf was and still is the gauss/5 ERML build. By best performing build with the Swaguar is the gauss/5 ERML build.

My gauss/5 ERML Timby is still better than my gauss/5 ERML Swaguar.

Timby still King.

[KHETTI]

Kassatsu, on 17 June 2015 - 06:38 PM, said:

It's got some pretty good hitboxes. If you turn your actual legs you can twist well enough to direct fire to whichever side you want it on, though your CT will generally always get hit and for some reason your legs just soak up damage like crazy. Seriously. Every match I've died in my EBJ so far I lost a leg first.

It's also got infinitely superior laser vomit now thanks to the lack of negative energy quirks.



Anything past 10 is not a true double heat sink, even if it's "in" the engine. The EBJ has a 325 engine, so it has 10 true doubles just like the timberwolf. Unless they changed it when I wasn't looking.

Jump jets are practically worthless on the timberwolf so that's not really a concern either.

Actually i've found while in my Panther that the EBJ's arms pop rather easily, and in most cases neutering it.

[FupDup]

Wintersdark, on 17 June 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

The EBJ certainly doesn't tank as well as a Timberwolf, and it twists and turns slower (smaller engine); however, it can push that damage faster and more efficiently than a Timberwolf does, now, so it depends:

Do you want agility and tankiness (TBR), or damage output (EBJ)?

Have you forgotten MWO's agility rules?

When two mechs have the same top speed, they have the same agility before we count quirks. The EBJ and TBR are both 89.1 kph, and thus they have identical agility. In fact, the Mad Cat S side torsos have small negative agility quirks, and thus the EBJ actually has slightly superior agility to the TBR.

I think what you're experiencing is that people just haven't fully grinded their EBJ's yet. Once everybody gets to 2x elite, they will match TBR agility.

The TBR has a mobility advantage in the form of JJs, but not in the form of agility.

Edited by FupDup, 17 June 2015 - 06:43 PM.

[the hedgehog]

Mcgral18, on 17 June 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

There can only be 10 TrueDubs; period.

Engine mounted are still PoorDubs.

now my illusions are ruined.

but yeah I do see some nerfs coming for EBJ.

[Matthew Ace]

Wait. I wasn't aware of this. Does any engine DHS beyond first 10 being PoorDubs hold true for all cases?

[FupDup]

Matthew Ace, on 17 June 2015 - 07:28 PM, said:

Wait. I wasn't aware of this. Does any engine DHS beyond first 10 being PoorDubs hold true for all cases?

Nope, only the first 10. Even then, you have to have a 250+ rated engine to get the full set of Trudubs. Basically, if you have to individually add a DHS, instead of it coming in the engine by default, then it's a Poordub.

[Ultimax]

Y U NO HEAD LAZORS?

[Alistair Winter]

Hellbringer still doesn't have any negative quirks. I imagine they'll wait several months before touching the EBJ. Because they need to... gather data.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

EBJ's are good, but die just like any other 65 tonner, and its pretty quick.

[Wintersdark]

FupDup, on 17 June 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

Nope, only the first 10. Even then, you have to have a 250+ rated engine to get the full set of Trudubs. Basically, if you have to individually add a DHS, instead of it coming in the engine by default, then it's a Poordub.

kind of a bad way to put this, as clan Mechs come with all DHS in the engine out of the box.

[FupDup]

Wintersdark, on 17 June 2015 - 07:46 PM, said:

kind of a bad way to put this, as clan Mechs come with all DHS in the engine out of the box.

Them Omni rules gotta be muddying the waters don't they? :\

[Dracol]

FupDup, on 17 June 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

Nope, only the first 10. Even then, you have to have a 250+ rated engine to get the full set of Trudubs. Basically, if you have to individually add a DHS, instead of it coming in the engine by default, then it's a Poordub.

As I recall, you are incorrect.

Now, with that said, when you factor in double basics, at 14 (maybe it was 13, been over a year since I did the math) DHS (10 internal, and 4 placed either in engine or external) they are more than double efficient. Once you go past that point though, than the ROI starts going below 2.0 average per DHS.

But it is only the 10 default DHS that receive the boost over other DHS. Easily to confirm. Take a mech with a 300 engine and add some weapons to bring down the heat figure below the default 2.0. Then add 2 DHS to any place out side the engine and take note of the heat efficiency. Then, remove those 2 DHS and then place within the engine and not the heat efficiency. You will notice the figure is exactly the same.

Edited by Dracol, 17 June 2015 - 07:55 PM.

[DaZur]

Meta is never "gone"... It just swings in a different direction.

[Mcgral18]

Dracol, on 17 June 2015 - 07:53 PM, said:

As I recall, you are incorrect.

Now, with that said, when you factor in double basics, at 14 (maybe it was 13, been over a year since I did the math) DHS (10 internal, and 4 placed either in engine or external) they are more than double efficient. Once you go past that point though, than the ROI starts going below 2.0 average per DHS.

But it is only the 10 default DHS that receive the boost over other DHS. Easily to confirm. Take a mech with a 300 engine and add some weapons to bring down the heat figure below the default 2.0. Then add 2 DHS to any place out side the engine and take note of the heat efficiency. Then, remove those 2 DHS and then place within in the engine and not the heat efficiency. You will notice the figure is exactly the same.

That number is 17. But, we're talking out of the box TrueDubs.


Maths:
Cool Run is a 15% heat dissipation bonus.

(10) 0.2 heatsinks dissipate at 2 heat per second.
Coolrun brings that to 2*1.15
=2.3 H/s
or, 0.23 dissipation per heatsink

For a mech with 17 heatsinks, it's 2+ (0.14*7)
=2.98
*1.15
=3.427
0.215 per heatsink

18DHS:
2+(0.14*8)
=3.12
*1.15
=3.588
or 0.199 H/s dissipation per heatsink


Efficiencies make doing math annoying, but until that 18 heatsink mark, the buffed TrueDubs make up for the gimped PoorDubs.

There's also the opposite effect; a Firestarter with 10 heatsinks performs better than a Cute Fox, Myth Lynx or Urbie with 10 heatsinks.
Those lesser robots need 12 heatsinks to match (and exceed) the Firestarter, costing them 2 tons to be on equal terms, while being lighter will less pod space.

Edited by Mcgral18, 17 June 2015 - 07:59 PM.