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Quick Balance


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#1 Mecrutio

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 04:08 AM

A Quick Examination of Balance between IS and Clan

Many people rant and rave about how unfair Clan mechs are compared to the IS mechs that love and cherish. Many Clan players feel things are perfectly fine while others find playing Clan weapons is too easy and get bored of playing them in CW quickly. Some people point the finger at the extra damage or reduced weight, the "unfairness" of XL engines that don't make losing a side torso a death sentence. Others claim this is balanced due to the high price point of these mechs, citing that since they cost more they should be better. Just to make one thing clear: that is a fallacy, balance is not "this costs more so its better". Balance is everything having clear strengths and weaknesses that makes different playstyles both viable and fair. Balance is a very hard thing to achieve. Moreover a high price point is an artificial barrier that only prevents new players or those with less disposable income from having the same equipment...when in game currency is free and easy to get the price point is moot and only serves to hinder newer players.

Clan tech is not overly better than its IS equivalent because of better damage or heat, its the extreme range that allows it to do overwhelming damage before IS can shoot back that is the problem. Perhaps the most obvious example of this is the Large Pulse Laser vs Clan Large Pulse Laser. The IS LPL deals 11 damage and uses 7 heat at a range of 365m, the C-LPL deals 13 for 10 heat at a range of 600m

What is supposed to be a short range brawler weapon is better than most IS long range weapons. with an equivalent or better optimal range. The damage and heat are fine, but that range is what causes Clan mechs to slaughter IS mechs so easily. An extra hundred meters on the C-LPL would be fine, it would still do more damage than its IS counterpart, still have longer range but would use more heat. It would have a clear balancing factor that it just doesn't have.

Now while this may read as a rant against the C-LPL (and to be fair it sort of is), this does apply to all clan weapons and their massive range advantage. This may also come off as another "Oh dear lord clans are so overpowered [Insert crying and screaming]", I should be stressed that it is not. Rather it is an attempt to find the most glaring error and offer up a solution. For the most part Clans and IS are more or less balanced. One step towards better balance and less tears would perhaps be the slightly lowering the range of Clan weaponry while leaving all other aspects of them the same.

Balance should leave systems and mechanics with clear advantages and disadvantages. In previous Mechwarrior games it was heat capacity that balanced the IS and Clan equipment, oft times one would find themselves taking several IS Large Lasers instead of C-ERLL because the Clan versions would cause you to overheat to quickly. In this game, with its different heat system, the true equaliser seems to be the range engagements can take place at. One can stay true to the lore of Battletech and still be balanced, one can stay faithful to the tabletop without copying it.

Edited by Mecrutio, 25 July 2015 - 04:08 AM.


#2 El Bandito

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 04:24 AM

Clan tech is better than IS overall. This is an indisputable truth. Otherwise, the best non-quirked IS mechs could perform as well as the best pre-nerf Clan mechs. But that is not the case. The arrival of Clans had jacked up the power creep so much so the previously competitive IS mechs were left in the dust during Invasion I. Currently PGI is holding the balance in place with the "+/- quirk" bandage, and they keep piling layer upon layer of it.

Instead PGI should redo the whole balancing from scratch and do some drastic change such as making Clan mechs able to add or remove Endo/Ferro/JJs to boost low performing Clan mechs while giving IS tech huge buffs such as Clan XL equivalent XL engine (LFE does not count, since it is still a "poor man's Clan XL"), and make sure there will be no clear cut advantage on weapon/equipment on either side, such as 2 slot Clan DHS performing the same as 3 slot IS DHS, or 12 tons CGauss performing the same as 15 tons IS Gauss.

Oh, and introduce progressive heat penalty so that people can't just pump 50-60 points of laser vomit and suffer no consequences.

I should write a thread about it. Too bad it will never reach PGI. <_<

Edited by El Bandito, 25 July 2015 - 04:32 AM.


#3 Sjorpha

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 04:33 AM

El bandito, I just can't like that post enough :)

#4 Mecrutio

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 04:39 AM

El Bandito, I do not disagree on any particular point! You are correct, but short of a total rework of the system, I'd settle for less of a range disparity.

#5 Duke Nedo

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 04:48 AM

Agree bandit!

There are 2 major things that put clan and is tech far apart, it's clan xl and clan lasers (mainly range, making erll perform almost like isll and 4 x cmpl like 3 x islpl... Those two saves tons of tons for clan mechs.

#6 Alan Davion

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 07:08 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 25 July 2015 - 04:24 AM, said:

Clan tech is better than IS overall. This is an indisputable truth. Otherwise, the best non-quirked IS mechs could perform as well as the best pre-nerf Clan mechs. But that is not the case. The arrival of Clans had jacked up the power creep so much so the previously competitive IS mechs were left in the dust during Invasion I. Currently PGI is holding the balance in place with the "+/- quirk" bandage, and they keep piling layer upon layer of it.

Instead PGI should redo the whole balancing from scratch and do some drastic change such as making Clan mechs able to add or remove Endo/Ferro/JJs to boost low performing Clan mechs while giving IS tech huge buffs such as Clan XL equivalent XL engine (LFE does not count, since it is still a "poor man's Clan XL"), and make sure there will be no clear cut advantage on weapon/equipment on either side, such as 2 slot Clan DHS performing the same as 3 slot IS DHS, or 12 tons CGauss performing the same as 15 tons IS Gauss.

Oh, and introduce progressive heat penalty so that people can't just pump 50-60 points of laser vomit and suffer no consequences.

I should write a thread about it. Too bad it will never reach PGI. <_<


Bolded and underlined for reference.

According to Russ in the last town hall, there is a huge, 'top to bottom' battle value re-balance coming in August. It was supposedly to be on Public Test by the end of this month, and while that might still happen, I'm not holding my breath.

More likely at this point the PTS will happen next month, and then the re-balance will happen in September, given the way things work with PGI.

#7 El Bandito

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 04:54 PM

View PostAlan Davion, on 25 July 2015 - 07:08 AM, said:

Bolded and underlined for reference.

According to Russ in the last town hall, there is a huge, 'top to bottom' battle value re-balance coming in August. It was supposedly to be on Public Test by the end of this month, and while that might still happen, I'm not holding my breath.

More likely at this point the PTS will happen next month, and then the re-balance will happen in September, given the way things work with PGI.



I just hope the "huge, 'top to bottom' battle value re-balance" Russ mentioned, is not a simple re-balancing of quirks. <_<

#8 Narcissistic Martyr

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 05:02 PM

Aren't they doing a massive rebalance due out next month?

#9 Elizander

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 07:11 PM

View PostEl Bandito, on 25 July 2015 - 04:54 PM, said:



I just hope the "huge, 'top to bottom' battle value re-balance" Russ mentioned, is not a simple re-balancing of quirks. <_<


I'll gladly take another 15% missile cooldown on my Orion M and some extra heat reduction quirks on my Atlas. :ph34r:

#10 Xetelian

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 07:32 PM

CLAN > Innersphere

Weapons are:
Lighter
Longer range
Higher damage

XL engine is just icing on the top.


Real balance would probably require IS to have the same XLs, die when losing both side torsos.

#11 Hit the Deck

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 07:45 PM

View PostEl Bandito, on 25 July 2015 - 04:24 AM, said:

...while giving IS tech huge buffs such as Clan XL equivalent XL engine (LFE does not count, since it is still a "poor man's Clan XL"),...

Particularly about this, how to balance the "normalized" isXL against STD and future LFE? Please note that the upcoming Clan BattleMechs may use the same STD engine.

#12 El Bandito

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 07:59 PM

View PostHit the Deck, on 25 July 2015 - 07:45 PM, said:

Particularly about this, how to balance the "normalized" isXL against STD and future LFE? Please note that the upcoming Clan BattleMechs may use the same STD engine.


1. PGI does not have to introduce LFE in the first place. Just like how they never implemented ARROW-IV or Inferno missiles.

2. Std engine and XL can be balanced if Clan XL shares similar crippling weakness as that of IS XL, if it comes to that--although Clanners will cry foul. I admit it is bit complicated to keep Std engines viable but I am sure there is a solution.

Personally, I tend to think of XL engine as natural upgrade of Std, instead of side-grade, similar to SHS and DHS.

Edited by El Bandito, 25 July 2015 - 08:11 PM.


#13 Hit the Deck

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 08:42 PM

View PostEl Bandito, on 25 July 2015 - 07:59 PM, said:

...I admit it is bit complicated to keep Std engines viable but I am sure there is a solution.

Personally, I tend to think of XL engine as natural upgrade of Std, instead of side-grade, similar to SHS and DHS.

For the first part, I imagine this will be problematic because buffing the isXLs will mean that we probably should buff the STDs. But buffing the STDs means that we will also buff Clan BattleMechs indirectly since they can also use STD engines, i.e. Clan also get buffed in a way.

For the second part, I also think the same but in MWO it unfortunately doesn't feel that way since you can target the side torsos. Moreover, IS still need their STDs because of bigger sized hardware, e.g. AC/20 HBK-4G and 3AC/5 BNC-3E.

Or just make no change to STDs and relegate them to "niche" builds.

Edited by Hit the Deck, 25 July 2015 - 08:50 PM.


#14 TITANIUMsmoothy

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 08:53 PM

Standard engines could give the mech a armour buff, would help the atlas a bit.

#15 Kiiyor

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 09:01 PM

View PostEl Bandito, on 25 July 2015 - 04:54 PM, said:



I just hope the &quot;huge, 'top to bottom' battle value re-balance&quot; Russ mentioned, is not a simple re-balancing of quirks. &lt;_&lt;


I think it is.

From what I understood, each mech would be given a rating based on their physical characteristics like hitboxes, agility and engine caps, as well as other factors like hardpoint numbers, types and locations.

THAT number will then be used to grade each mech on a scale, and quirks will be applied based on that number.

#16 Mystere

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 09:02 PM

Short of making Clan Mechs and equipment nothing more than reskinned versions of IS Mechs and weapons differing only in sound and visual effects, what would people be really happy with?

#17 Lord0fHats

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 09:24 PM

View PostMystere, on 25 July 2015 - 09:02 PM, said:

Short of making Clan Mechs and equipment nothing more than reskinned versions of IS Mechs and weapons differing only in sound and visual effects


I'd actually be just fine with that, if only to never have to hear complaints in game again :D

#18 Alek Ituin

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 09:26 PM

View PostMystere, on 25 July 2015 - 09:02 PM, said:

Short of making Clan Mechs and equipment nothing more than reskinned versions of IS Mechs and weapons differing only in sound and visual effects, what would people be really happy with?


Nothing. Not a god damned thing.

People, as a rule, will never be happy with anything that isn't exactly as they want it. You'd even have people b*tching about balance if everything was exactly the same. You'd have people complaining about balance if the only weapons were Small Lasers, and the only Mechs were Locust 1E's!

At no point will you ever get people to STFU and be happy.

Edited by Alek Ituin, 25 July 2015 - 09:27 PM.


#19 xe N on

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 11:11 PM

They should have adopted the idea of larger units of IS against small units of Clans. But not like the proposed 8 vs 12 or 10 vs 12.

It should be 12 vs 12. But IS could use KI "pets", like banshees, tanks, infantry that could be "summoned" like in any other 08/15 mmorpg has. They could have also limit modules exclusively for IS or some special abilities (like re-enforcement ability that refill ammo).

By this way, the original flavor of BT could have been kept.

#20 Duke Nedo

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 11:28 PM

View PostEl Bandito, on 25 July 2015 - 07:59 PM, said:


1. PGI does not have to introduce LFE in the first place. Just like how they never implemented ARROW-IV or Inferno missiles.

2. Std engine and XL can be balanced if Clan XL shares similar crippling weakness as that of IS XL, if it comes to that--although Clanners will cry foul. I admit it is bit complicated to keep Std engines viable but I am sure there is a solution.

Personally, I tend to think of XL engine as natural upgrade of Std, instead of side-grade, similar to SHS and DHS.


I would imagine something like component hp and structure buff for stds, in combination with a bit harsher penalty for each st crit slot lost.





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