53 replies to this topic

[Jakob Knight]

Engineering, on 05 July 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

The devs seem to have a "ALL mechs are viable" philosophy to this game. The have also stated that clan units would have a numerical disadvantage. Both of these design philosophies seem to point to clan tech only being available to clan units. So TBH it's all a moot point.

This is probably one of the most important things to keep in mind on these Forums, and it's easy to lose sight of when all we have to do at this point is sling around words and ideas instead of autocannon rounds and lasers. No matter what we decide here, what we propose, what we -think- would be l33t (groans at using that term), the devs have their own ideas, and it won't make any difference what the Forum chatter is. They'll make it the way they want it to be, and all we can do is adapt to the situation as it happens.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 05 July 2012 - 10:36 AM.

[vettie]

I never played the BT TT game, but I have played (and still do) ASL (Advanced Squad Leader)
In that game, especially for DYO scenarios, everything was assigned a BPV (basic point value - think CBills for example).
It is not really a question if the German equipment (especially in the early years) was superior (altho the other major countries eventually caught up in technology - think Clans vs IS). However, when you designed a your own scenario everythign was based on BPV and then a multiplier for rarity factors (IF a new German tank was introduced in '43 and used in a certain theatre it may have been rare until several months later or even a year later. Once it was a proven battlefield machine more and more were made.) Same for the troops - Conscripts, 1st liners, Elite, SS -each costing more but giving you more VALUE for the BPV spent.
So if you designed a scenario say of Russians vs Germans you may end up with 10 German 1st liners and 3 Nice German Tanks (75LL gun with nice armour factors (harder to kill)) against 15 1st liner Russians with 5 T34s (75L guns and decent armour). The Overall BPV for both teams would be very close to the same total.

In MW terms I only have experience with MW4 LEAGUE Play to draw from. I know, say what you want about MW4 Mercs, but it was fun and League play was much better than the open play servers or even the single player game. Still is.
I was on a Pirate team. An IS Pirate team. We fought the Clans MANY times. We won alot. We lost several times too, but we won more than we lost. Clanners (in that league) had almost exclusively Clan Mechs (this was a puretech league - NBT). Our objective was factory raids so we could steal Clan tech and keep it or sell it to IS Houses.

Almost ALL of those battles were 8v8. Like I said we won alot. It came down to tactics. And Let me assure you, they (it that league) did not fight like Clanners of the books. So an inferior tech (? - maybe) would overcome a superior tech (? again maybe) by tactics, not by numbers or weights (drops were set by tonnage and believe me every bit of tonnage avail was used by both sides), just simple better play.

Now, it seems to me that when the Clans come (I suspect the Devs already have a plan for all of this, but it is fun expressing our opinions on it) that where ever they invade first si where the most likely availibility of whatever Clan Tech is salvaged will be. Say they invade DC territory and there are some brutal wars leaving many destroyed and cripled mechs for both sides strewn (is that a word?) over the battle fields. Salvage by survivors yields some Clan tech chassis and weopnry. DC decides to rebuild these (as best they can and for a LARGE amount of CBills because we know little of their technology) for use in future battles. The cost should be HIGH and the rarity factor as well.

A team of FWL folks should even have to pay MORE CBills to get access to Clan Tech because they havent seen any Clan action (no salvage avail to them) and even more to maintain whatever they can scrounge up.

The reverse applies to the Clans. Cost for using maintaing IS tech should be higher just for rarity factors (to the Clans).

As the plague, uh, I mean the Clans spread into the IS the rarity factors begin to get lower and lower thus resulting in CBill cost drop AS TIME GOES ON.

matching 10 v 12 (or more or less)? I dont know. 12 really skilled pilot will destroy 10 average pilots depending on their team work and tactics. The reverse is also true 10 skilled, team players can wipe out 12 avergae to good players using good tactics and team work.

Also brings up a question i have - When a mech is rendered useless in battle (not really destroyed but on the ground, immobile or all weapons shot out, or even with just heavy damage), to win the MWO battle do you have to destory ALL the enemy team? If yes, what happens to the pilot that got his founders mech (or any mech for that matter) destroyed? Does he get another? What if he has little in the way fo CBills or real money (not enough to buy a new mech)? How does he get enough CBills to make another purchase?

Oh well - fun stuff.

[Comguard]

I really like the proposed idea in this thread that you can buy Clantech just on special days. There are around 30 Clan Weapons for this timeframe, so every day another gun. So availability would be low and getting replacements difficult. This could even make Clan-Lasboats impossible if you even limit the maximum number of items one can buy, e.g. 3 AC/20 or 6 ER-Med. You can't set the numbers too low because if you have no chance repairing it it would be pointless, but this way it could even add some flavor to the game. One Jenner with 3 IS-Meds and one Clan ER-Med - that's not that much of an unfair advantage, it just spices up the situation.

[Jakob Knight]

Comguard, on 05 July 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

I really like the proposed idea in this thread that you can buy Clantech just on special days. There are around 30 Clan Weapons for this timeframe, so every day another gun. So availability would be low and getting replacements difficult. This could even make Clan-Lasboats impossible if you even limit the maximum number of items one can buy, e.g. 3 AC/20 or 6 ER-Med. You can't set the numbers too low because if you have no chance repairing it it would be pointless, but this way it could even add some flavor to the game. One Jenner with 3 IS-Meds and one Clan ER-Med - that's not that much of an unfair advantage, it just spices up the situation.

Um...no. There are -no- Clan Weapons for this timeframe. The IS hasn't even -heard- of the Clans yet. When they do, there will -still- be zero clan weapons for this timeframe, because no one can stand against them to get any.

Setting aside canon, let's look at what you are suggesting. Say player X happens to get online at 3am, during the 0300-0305 timeframe when players with Hunchbacks and at least 100 kills can get hold of an Ultra AC/20. Player Y, who has to work for a living to support their family, is at work and can't get home in time for the sale, or is asleep because they work 12 hours a day and it's a weekday. Next weekend, player Y in his Atlas comes up against Player X in his Atlas, and is immediately killed by 40 points to the head. Player Y cannot get hold of an UAC/20, becuase he missed the chance due to circumstances, and every time he comes up against Player X, the same thing happens.

This is what you would call a good idea?

And for the record, I love how you rate unfair advantages by degrees. Is a little unfair advantage acceptable to you when you find yourself on the other end of the stick? Would a little more unfair advantage be still acceptable, or is there a point where is becomes an unfair unfair advantage?

Most of all, why would you want this in the first place? The game isn't even out, and you are complaining it isn't enough for you as it is?

[Laserkid]

You all keep forgetting that clan weapons and IS first gen omnis had compatibility problems in the lore (including references in the TROs).

It's likely going to be clan weps on clan mechs only for a long, long time.

This also eases the balancing of clan mechs on PGI.

[Batch1972]

Nah.. don't want clantech - it's hard enough trying to balance the IS stuff without adding it clantech. If they were going to do it, I would support clan mech chassis but with all the IS rules - ie ES / FF occupy 15 slots.

You have to remember this isn't canon, it's a ftp pvp game. Clantech would unbalance everything too much

[Warma]

I don't think we want what you are generally suggesting here. If people are allowed to mix&match technology, this will just eventually result in everybody carrying clan tech, which is boring and monotonous. The best option is to have IS mechs use IS tech and Clan mechs use Clan tech, then make the drops numerically unbalanced or unbalanced by weight (5vs8, 7vs12, or perhaps 8vs8 with IS using heavies on average and clans using mediums and lights etc).

It would be damn cool to drop as a clan premade against a larger IS group or as an IS premade against a smaller Clan group.

Bottom line is that I DO NOT WANT IS mechs with Clan tech or Clan mechs with IS tech. That is what ruined MW4 in the past. If you have played MW4, you know that you don't want that either, as it results in each and every mech equaling a Clan mech in powerlevel.

Edited by Warma, 15 November 2012 - 01:20 AM.

[Stormwolf]

Warma, on 15 November 2012 - 01:19 AM, said:

Bottom line is that I DO NOT WANT IS mechs with Clan tech or Clan mechs with IS tech. That is what ruined MW4 in the past. If you have played MW4, you know that you don't want that either, as it results in each and every mech equaling a Clan mech in powerlevel.

The Clans (and by extension Wolf's Dragoons) have units which are refit IS mechs. Note that this doen't include most of the IIC models since they are usually factory built. The Warhammer IIC is 10 tons heavier then the regular Warhammer for instance (you can't refit a mech beyond its max weight).

• Archer (C)
  
• Atlas (C)
  
• Marauder (C)
  
• Rifleman (C)
  
• Shadow Hawk (C)
  
• Thunderbolt (C)
  
• Warhammer (C)
  
• Wolfhound IIC (only one was ever created for Phelan Kell using the structure of his old mech)
  
• Victor (C)

But unfortunately most of them are unseen.

[Gaan Cathal]

I understand the issues with 10 vs 12 matches not counterbalencing the Clan advantage, but given the current setup one would assume the smallest scale Clan vs Sphere match would be 5 vs 8 - i.e. a Star against two Lances. Logically the next step would not be 10 vs 12 but 10 vs 16. The server load is only marginally higher than a 12 vs 12 IS match after all, and it preserves both a non-trivial numerical gap and the core canon unit size.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Papertarget, on 04 July 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

In MW4, the IS Large Laser was the king of the weapons. You could put 6 into a Clan Mech and take down just about anything quick, while maintaining a decent hold on your heat.

In the BT Universe, the biggest advantage that the Clans had was not weapons. It was the Double Heatsinks. They could mount larger amounts of weapons without taxing their heat as much as the standard IS Mech. When I played the earlier games, I would choose Clan Tech specifically because they could use the Double Heatsinks. They aren't tougher, nor do they have any real advantage other then that. (And the ability to use universal weapons hard-points, but that was less of a consideration by far.)

I do agree that Clan Tech shouldn't be readily available. I had the thought of only having Clan Chassis available to people that have defeated or destroyed that type of Mech, plus having the repairs be much greater then a standard chassis, but the cost thing would make it more of a wallet warriors purview then. Maybe making it so that there is a very limited number of repair parts, or that there is a time limit for repairs before it can go out to fight again, making it so that IS mechs are still used predominantly. I don't know, but I am fairly sure that the Devs have put a lot of thought into the whole "clans" problem. After all. They were the ones that set the time for the beginning of the clan invasion of the IS. So I will trust them to make it right.

I do not know what game YOU were playing but the MW4 I played (all of them), the ER PPC & the LB20x-AC were the king of weapons.

Quote

In the BT universe.................

The biggest advantage WAS the weapons. They did more damage at a much longer range. Sure the DHS offset the heat output but let us use logic here:

If pilots A & B only have one weapon each on a mech & A can hit B long before B can get into firing range & not only that but A's weapon does more damage than B's, by the time B gets in range, he/she is badly damaged.

Let us also say for the sake of argument, that A's weapon shuts his mech down after firing only once, with the range & damage the weapon does, A has bought himself/herself time because after every shut down, A can simply move back a bit keeping himself/herself out of B's range while still inflicting damage.

Let us read the thoughts of Phelan Kell/Wolf/Ward on his first encounter with the Clans:

Quote

As if they had read his thoughts, the three unknown 'Mechs moved in. The one that had brought the Locust down came to a stop just over nine hundred meters from the Panther and brought both pods up. Twin large-laser beams flashed out and caught the Panther in the back of its thighs. What little armor still remained on the pirate 'Mech's legs vanished in a cloud of ceramic steam. Myomer muscles ran like water and boiled away where they touched the titanomagnesium femurs that held the Panther upright. The lasers amputated the Panther's legs with surgical precision. Its legs cut out from under it, the Panther smashed flat on its back and did not move as the dust stirred up by its fall quickly drifted down to coat it with a red blanket.


"Blake's Blood! Did you see that, Phelan?"

A tremble in Jack Tang's normally calm voice betrayed his unease. Phelan stared at the computer projection of the range and damage done to the Panther.

Seven hundred meters for a large laser! That's impossible! They can only hit at 450 max.

He hit a button that opened a tight channel between him and Hound Leader.

"I don't like this, Jack. Keep Trey and Kat out of this. Jesus Christ Almighty, look at what they've done to the Rifleman!"

They aren't tougher? You need to do some reading before you make posts:

Quote

The large laser hammered into the enemy 'Mech's left side. It peeled back armor, and for a moment, Phelan hoped against hope it had pierced the 'Mech's armored hide. As his medium lasers stitched the 'Mech's left arm and leg with stinging ruby bolts, his heart began to sink.

All I'm getting is armor! But that's impossible ... Any 'Mech hauling that much of an arsenal should have paper-thin armor. It's crazy.

For the people talking how Clan tech is not available yet, the game has it. ER Large Lasers, ER PPCs, Streak SRMs etc. You guys have the OPTION whether or not you want to use it.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 22 November 2012 - 05:29 AM.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

ER LL,ER PPC and ssrm2's remained or was reengeneered(i dont remember exactly) after succesion wars.
That is why clans will come with ER pulses and ER meds/small/micro lasers and ssrms 4 and 6 when IS still dont have it at a time(3050) bcuz IS lost this technology in war.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Thanks. I did not express my thought correctly. I meant that you get an idea of what Clan weapons would be like. sorry for the mix-up.

[Tokra]

Even though PGI have already their own concept about the clans (they must have, or they can totally forget adding the clans), i would love to present mine.


Clans are meant to be the best warriors.
So first of all you need at least 500 matches and a KDr of 1.0 or higher to be able to activate clans. The KDr will be removed after one week because of all the crying on the forum.

After you activate the clans you get a second character on your account, and you can switch between these two. First you have to do is a trial of position. You have to play against 3 GM/Devs or selected players. Only if you are able to beat at least one, you can play clans. If you fail you can try again in 3 month. This will be changed to 2 weeks after the next forum storm.

There is no ranking or ELO or weight match making at all. If you want to be clanner, you have to be able to handle all settings.

There are two modes to play against IS (against other clans its just 5vs5). Hard mode and easy mode. In Hard mode you will be paired in a 5 vs 12 match. On easy mode you will be in a 5 vs 8 match. The reward is 3 times higher in the hard match compared to easy.
Later there will be a batchal mode. Where two binary stars are in a lobby and bidding against each other who has the right to fight.

There are no credits on the clan side (money does not matter for clan warriors). Instead there is a honor value. You get honor points for clan correct, honorright bahavior in the fights. And for killing enemies. As well as winning a match.

1 for winning, 1 per kill (if no one else damaged the opponent while you fought him). -1 if you damage a mech that is in a fight with someone else, unless he attacked you, 3 for honorable bahavior. Like not attacking other mechs that are already in a fight, accepting a duel against a much heavier mech and winning, ...
You dont get any if you lose. And it does not matter if the opponent respect the honor levels. Clans stand over these barbarians from the inner shpere.
And dont come up with honor level 4 and how the wolfes have done it. This is not the clan way. Its only they want to win. They just want to win and dont gain honor in it. Sure, you can do it this way, but you dont get much from it other than the win .

These honor points are to unlock weapons, mechs and equipment. And as well for the mech upgrades like the current ones.
They can be expensive, like 1000+ for mechs. Will be changed to 200+ after the next whining wave.

Downside on this is and bonus for the IS. When you fight against IS and you lose, the IS get salvage of all non destroyed clan tech and mechs. Randomly between the players that are still not dropped to the end. These clan tech can be used by the IS. But if it is destroyed in a match its gone from their inventory. This way its even possible that someone can obtain a clan omni mech. But use it only with the risk of losing the mech.
Means really high risk on hard mode that you stuff up the IS side.

[Wolf Ender]

i really think they need to push back the timeline

we need a LOT more experience with the system and working out bugs and balance issues before even think about adding in clans