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Cauldron-Born: Different Idea


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#21 1453 R

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 08:20 PM

View PostNightingale27, on 20 June 2015 - 08:08 PM, said:

Are you sure that's the build you are having a blast in?... hard to believe with that heat... I guess you are just taking shots from the med-long... them medium lasers seem pretty useless to me with the heat and spread dmg, and weapons too hot to use just gets in the way of efficiency. Which kind of just makes it just run on pure UAC 5 and 2 UAC5 = dps of 6 or so.

So I am kind of confused by the build.
Just curious, what were you trying to achieve when you made that build?


The Cauldron-Born is kinda rotten at face-to-face murderfests - it dies faster than most any other heavy I'm in if I go around facederping for kills. That particular CBN up there is more of a striker, which is how I prefer to operate anyways. I'm one of those who generally figures a bigger badder weapons array and some trigger discipline makes for more options than a million heat sinks, though there are a few exceptions.

Heh...well, that and I don't actually alpha all that often. I'll use either the arm lasers or torso lasers as required and mostly lean on the cUAC/5s unless I get a good chance to unload all six beams. Stick-and-move and abandoning fights I know I can't trade well in gives me plenty of chances to wreck people. Heh...it's not a thirty-sink Laservomit or the ever-popular dual Gauss, but it fits what my brain wants to do with the CBN well.

Also: maybe check your tagging, man? o_O

#22 Mr Hunter

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Posted 21 June 2015 - 10:50 AM

View PostFupDup, on 20 June 2015 - 06:32 PM, said:

The speed issue you're seeing there is because TT had to round speeds up.

Normally, a mech's running MP was walking MP * 1.5. However, when you had an odd number of walking MP, this led to a decimal for running MP... The Cauldron Born for example had 5 walking MP and 7.5 running MP, which had to be rounded up to 8 running MP. This is why the Sarna speed is listed as 86 kph.

However, when we don't round the numbers, MWO's value of 81 kph is the "correct" raw value.

In english? As much of a fan of BT that I am, I've never played Table top....

#23 Tiamat of the Sea

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Posted 21 June 2015 - 11:06 AM

View PostB8hunter, on 21 June 2015 - 10:50 AM, said:

In english? As much of a fan of BT that I am, I've never played Table top....


I got this.

The base way of determining a 'mech's speed comes from tabletop. In tabletop, a 'mech can only mount an engine with a rating that is a multiple of its weight (So, for instance, a 30-tonne 'mech could mount a 180 or 210 engine, but not a 215 or 200 or what have you.) Engine rating divided by tonnage gives you Movement Points at Walk speed. This is then shifted out into KPH, where approximately 10 KPH equals 1 MP.

To figure a 'mech's Run speed, or maximum speed, you multiply the Walk speed by 1.5. Since the tabletop game operates in hexes, this needs to be rounded- and it was universally rounded up. So a 'mech with an engine rating 5x its tonnage would have a Walk of 5, and a Run of 5*1.5=7.5, rounded up to 8. Then, for flavor, the 8 becomes 80 kph and the writers add on an essentially arbitrary amount less than 10 so that it looks cooler.

The original 3055 TRO, for instance, lists the Griffin top speed as 81.5, the Kintaro as 86, and the Wolverine as 86.4, despite all of them using the same rating of engine and being the same tonnage. Because anything after the 10s digit doesn't really matter, and the printed speed in KPH doesn't affect the actual performance.

In Mechwarrior games, though, we're not limited by hexes. This means that the maximum speed of a 'mech can be precise, rather than rounded off. It also needs to be the same for the same engine rating relative to tonnage, or balance starts going all wonky.

The result of this is that the Run speeds in kph from the tabletop game (which are based off of the hex speed and then given an often arbitrary ones and tenths value because it doesn't actually matter) are not the same as the maximum speed in MWO or any other Mechwarrior game with free engine size choice. This means that the Kintaro, Griffin, and Wolverine all have the same top speed when using a 275 rating engine, and it's 81.0 kph.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 21 June 2015 - 11:25 AM.


#24 Mr Hunter

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Posted 21 June 2015 - 11:27 AM

Thanks! That was really helpful in explaining the skewed speed ratings. Still against a -speed quirk for the ebj though.

#25 Escef

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Posted 21 June 2015 - 11:43 AM

View Post1453 R, on 20 June 2015 - 05:17 PM, said:

The CBN is better than the Doge, but what isn't?


Seriously? A properly kitted and piloted Mad Dog will rip people's faces off. It can strip the front torso armor off of assaults in 1 volley.

#26 Escef

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Posted 21 June 2015 - 11:51 AM

View PostQuickdraw Crobat, on 21 June 2015 - 11:06 AM, said:

Then, for flavor, the 8 becomes 80 kph and the writers add on an essentially arbitrary amount less than 10 so that it looks cooler.


Nope, not arbitrary. Hexes are 30 meters across and rounds are 10 seconds. Max MP of 8? So on clear terrain you travel 30 * 8 = 240 meters in 10 seconds. Multiply by 6 for meters per minute (1440), and by 60 for per hour (86,400), then divide by 1000 for kph (86.4). If you check, the VAST majority of mechs with an 8 MP run limit are listed with a top speed of 86.4 kph. Every now and again they do try to mix it up a little by fudging the number, but this is rather rare.

EDIT: For quick'n'dirty, converting hexes per round to kph is simply multiply the number of hexes by 10.8.

Edited by Escef, 21 June 2015 - 12:02 PM.


#27 Tiamat of the Sea

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Posted 21 June 2015 - 12:16 PM

View PostEscef, on 21 June 2015 - 11:51 AM, said:


Nope, not arbitrary. Hexes are 30 meters across and rounds are 10 seconds. Max MP of 8? So on clear terrain you travel 30 * 8 = 240 meters in 10 seconds. Multiply by 6 for meters per minute (1440), and by 60 for per hour (86,400), then divide by 1000 for kph (86.4). If you check, the VAST majority of mechs with an 8 MP run limit are listed with a top speed of 86.4 kph. Every now and again they do try to mix it up a little by fudging the number, but this is rather rare.

EDIT: For quick'n'dirty, converting hexes per round to kph is simply multiply the number of hexes by 10.8.


Huh. Learn a little.

In the end, though, what it amounts to is rounding flummoxing things up.

#28 Gyrok

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Posted 21 June 2015 - 12:30 PM

View PostUltimatum X, on 20 June 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:



Then when that happens feel free to reference this list:


Posted Image


That is actually completely f*cked...I knew the dragon...but come on...nearly all of the IS heavies have the medium profile?

#29 Escef

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Posted 21 June 2015 - 12:35 PM

View PostGyrok, on 21 June 2015 - 12:30 PM, said:


That is actually completely f*cked...I knew the dragon...but come on...nearly all of the IS heavies have the medium profile?


It's my understanding that only 1 of the T-bolts is medium.

#30 Tiamat of the Sea

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Posted 21 June 2015 - 12:36 PM

I find it both amusing and distressing that the two which absolutely don't are the Orion and the Quickdraw.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 21 June 2015 - 12:36 PM.


#31 1453 R

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Posted 21 June 2015 - 01:11 PM

View PostEscef, on 21 June 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:


Seriously? A properly kitted and piloted Mad Dog will rip people's faces off. It can strip the front torso armor off of assaults in 1 volley.


I had meant 'the CBN is better at absorbing/twisting damage than the Doge', but sure, why bother with context?

#32 Escef

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Posted 21 June 2015 - 06:17 PM

View Post1453 R, on 21 June 2015 - 01:11 PM, said:

I had meant 'the CBN is better at absorbing/twisting damage than the Doge', but sure, why bother with context?


Because you seem to enjoy bagging on the Mad Dog in this thread. 6xSRM6+4xERML is an alpha of 100. None of my assaults is within 20 points of that.

#33 Gattsus

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Posted 21 June 2015 - 06:36 PM

View PostChapeL, on 20 June 2015 - 04:37 PM, said:

It's painfull to level as well, that thing feels like a bathtub on legs... of course, I am expecting that to change once they are elited but in the mean time it's a chore. On top of that, people underestimate the use of lower arm actuators on a mech with that kind of torso twist restriction.


So true. Treat is as a Jager and it will make wonders. The EBJ can't tank but can put a big hole :D

View PostChapeL, on 20 June 2015 - 04:37 PM, said:

It's painfull to level as well, that thing feels like a bathtub on legs... of course, I am expecting that to change once they are elited but in the mean time it's a chore. On top of that, people underestimate the use of lower arm actuators on a mech with that kind of torso twist restriction.


So true. Treat is as a Jager and it will be able to deliver its load make wonders. The EBJ can't tank but can put a big hole in someone else's mech :D

Edited by Gattsus, 21 June 2015 - 06:37 PM.


#34 1453 R

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Posted 21 June 2015 - 07:04 PM

View PostEscef, on 21 June 2015 - 06:17 PM, said:


Because you seem to enjoy bagging on the Mad Dog in this thread. 6xSRM6+4xERML is an alpha of 100. None of my assaults is within 20 points of that.


I've played that build. I've played it with cERSL, I've played it with cSPL. I've played it sans lasers altogether. I've played it with cASRM-6, I've played it with cASRM-4. I've played it with cSSRM-6. I've played it with cSRM-2s and cMPL. I've played the Doge with LRMs, I've played it with mixed long and short-range missiles, I've played it with cSRMs alongside a class-20 autocannon. I have done every single bloody thing that makes sense on the Doge and a good few things that don't.

The thing is made of spun sugar. It sheds shoulders faster than a Meth Lynx sheds arms. The Mad Doge, even with its cXL, is noticeably less durable than a Dragon. I know, I learned this game in Dragons, and I would bet on my Flame in most any match you'd care to put me in, even with less than half the alpha damage, because the Mad Dog, very literally, cannot take a punch to save its life.

If it does not perfectly ambush its enemies every single time, it comes apart. If it is focused at all, for any length of time, it comes apart. It cannot win duels, it cannot sustain itself in the brawl. It has truly heart-stopping potential firepower, but that potential cannot be fully realized because the 'Mech is so incredibly, impossibly fragile that any amount of fire its victims manage to put into it is a serious problem for the Doge.

I want to like the Doge. I have tried, desperately, to like the Doge. I have done everything in my power to turn the Mad Dog into the ferocious combatant it's supposed to be, but I cannot do that. The Cauldron-Born does not possess the Mad Dog's overwhelming firepower, no, but it also does not possess the Mad Dog's disastrous combination of scaling and hitboxes. The CBN is more fragile than either Clan heavy humanoid, and significantly more fragile than the Timber Wolf, but frankly?

Dragons are sturdier than Doges. My Trebuchets are sturdier than Doges. The trees from the destructible terrain teaser clip are sturdier than Doges. A roll of sodden toilet paper is sturdier than a Doge. Paul Inouye's reputation with the community is sturdier than the Doge.

If you can somehow manage to survive in a Mad Dog long enough to get that hundred-point alpha off more than once, fantastic. I'm honestly glad the 'Mech works for you and I highly encourage you to keep running it. The rest of us, on the other hand, will continue to assume that the Mad Dog is far and away the least durable machine out of the Clan heavy and medium brackets, and in fact, somewhat less realistically durable than some Clan lights.

Now. Can we move on? I hope so. Anyways.

'Clan JagerMech' seems to be fairly accurate, though as I have never piloted JagerMechs myself I can't really say. It seems to fit, though - the CBN is definitely best as a heavy weapons platform and needs to pick its engagements much more carefully than the other machines in the Clan heavy line-up (exempting the Mad Dog, as previously mentioned). The rewards for managing that engagement control, however, are very sweet indeed. I honestly haven't bothered with dual Gauss or dual cUAC/10 as most people seem to run on the thing. For one, a single cUAC/20 covers the same damage as both AC/10s for an eight-ton reduction in overall gun weight - I figure that if you're running dual cUACs, run /5s and get significant weight for secondary armaments. As for the dual Gauss thing...well, I'm glad there's a non-Whale Clan 'Mech that can finally run it, but it just ain't my bag.

Good thing, then, that there's so many fun things you can do with a CBN. Here's to hoping that it doesn't end up saddled with pointless nonsensical nerfs that don't fix anything, a'la the TBR and SCR, eh? If they're going to hit it - and who knows, maybe you folks are right and they won't, but if they do - let's hope we can steer them to things that at least make sense this time, eh?

#35 Escef

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Posted 21 June 2015 - 07:20 PM

View Post1453 R, on 21 June 2015 - 07:04 PM, said:

The thing is made of spun sugar. It sheds shoulders faster than a Meth Lynx sheds arms.


Um, yeah, what do you expect? It's only 60 tons and packs more firepower than most assaults. You'd have to be insane to think people are going to ignore that.

View Post1453 R, on 21 June 2015 - 07:04 PM, said:

Now. Can we move on?


I can, but I wager you won't.

#36 Koniks

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Posted 23 June 2015 - 02:30 PM

View PostHit the Deck, on 20 June 2015 - 03:15 PM, said:

This 'mech will very likely get the same laser nerf treatment like the TBR/SCR if the population continues to be high.


It doesn't even need laser-primary builds. Go ahead and nerf 'em.

But I think we need to give it time both for players to finish mastering them and to master fighting against them. We're also in the middle of the honeymoon period where everyone enjoys their new toys.

At the moment, the scaling and hitboxes do a pretty good job of balancing it. It has the SCR's nose but bigger, big ears, and wide arms. And none of the damage registration issues so far.

TBR's are still the superior platform for most builds because jump jets and armor. HBR's are better for energy builds because ECM.





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