119 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

Mechs in MWO have twice the armor per ton that they had in TT. Heck, many of the TT mechs didn't have maxed out armor...

It takes about twice as much ammo to bring down a mech. On some weapons we have 50% more ammo than TT, but we should have the full double.

Except you can aim where your shots go in MWO.

TT had random hit locations.

So you actually kill mechs way faster than in TT. Despite the double armor.

[Nightshade24]

lordtzar, on 21 June 2015 - 08:14 AM, said:

Laser vomit is a plague. The only remedy is across-the-board laser nerfs to IS and clan lasers.

OR

Buffs to ballistic/missile weapons.

Lasor vomit only exists due to loopholes in ghost heat (clan) or abuse of some quirks/ no ghost heat (IS).

If we go with a system for 'heat' a person made earlier I forgot the video but it demonstrated the idea well... basicly each weapon has it's own heat value and can overload the reactor thus gain penalty heat from that and for a bit have issues cooling down after that for a bit I think it went...

Like you can "ghost heat" AC 2's with medium lasers and a SRM 6 with this technically...

What this does creates a smart ghost heat system so to say and it's not all hidden and user-not friendly. it's more practical and uses elements from both MW: O, MW4, and TT to generate a unique counter for alpha boating stuffs...

wait... just found this vid that mentions it.

[Alistair Winter]

Joseph Mallan, on 23 June 2015 - 02:25 AM, said:

Or they need big ballz cause they would be fighting handicapped and that gains more glory so more ammo not really a necessity.

In that case, why bring any ammo at all? Even within the parameters of silly Battletech fantasy, it makes no sense to me. And even if it was a valid lore-based argument, I wouldn't put much emphasis on it. I'd prefer seeing ammo count increased for the sake of seeing more stock builds being used. The Summoner, the Jagermech, the Blackjack, the Mauler... just so many iconic mechs that are hard to play because we need to increase both the amount of ammo and heat sinks for them to be viable against good opponents in min-maxed builds.

I'd rather increase ammo count and see more stock weapon loadouts (e.g. 2xAC5 and 2x.AC2 on the Jager) instead of keeping the current meta and talk about how players lack balls.

[Weeny Machine]

Alistair Winter, on 23 June 2015 - 04:01 AM, said:

In that case, why bring any ammo at all? Even within the parameters of silly Battletech fantasy, it makes no sense to me. And even if it was a valid lore-based argument, I wouldn't put much emphasis on it. I'd prefer seeing ammo count increased for the sake of seeing more stock builds being used. The Summoner, the Jagermech, the Blackjack, the Mauler... just so many iconic mechs that are hard to play because we need to increase both the amount of ammo and heat sinks for them to be viable against good opponents in min-maxed builds.

I'd rather increase ammo count and see more stock weapon loadouts (e.g. 2xAC5 and 2x.AC2 on the Jager) instead of keeping the current meta and talk about how players lack balls.

I also would add the heat scale of the TT. That would lower the use of big alpha builds considerably and increase the TTK. No more armour needed.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 23 June 2015 - 04:12 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

Bush Hopper, on 23 June 2015 - 04:09 AM, said:

I also would add the heat scale of the TT. That would lower the use of big alpha builds considerably and increase the TTK. No more armour needed.

Absolutely. 100%

Both the heat scale and the fact that PGI increased the heat on ballistics to the point where most players considered it pointless to combine lasers and ballistics for better heat efficiency.

[STEF_]

Bush Hopper, on 23 June 2015 - 04:09 AM, said:

I also would add the heat scale of the TT. That would lower the use of big alpha builds considerably and increase the TTK. No more armour needed.

+1
This would be awesome.

[Kotzi]

I doubt that doubling the ammo count makes stock mechs more favourable. I rather think that people want to play their "Jagermech", "Summoner" etc. Thats a big part of the fun in Mechwarrior, customize your mech.

[Hotthedd]

The suggestion for caseless ammo sounds good. More ammo/ton, but gives A/Cs the jam chance of a UA/C.

Is it in the timeline yet?

[Escef]

Hotthedd, on 23 June 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

The suggestion for caseless ammo sounds good. More ammo/ton, but gives A/Cs the jam chance of a UA/C.

Is it in the timeline yet?

3055, 3 years out. Might make for an interesting upgrade option.

[Weeny Machine]

Escef, on 23 June 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

3055, 3 years out. Might make for an interesting upgrade option.

...until your (like in case of the LB10X) we cannot code that

[Escef]

Bush Hopper, on 23 June 2015 - 10:47 AM, said:

...until your (like in case of the LB10X) we cannot code that

I see no reason why, we aren't talking about selectable ammo here. Pay for an upgrade and your standard ACs use caseless ammo that gets 33% more shots per ton, just adds a jam chance to your no-ultra ACs. This is no more complicated than Artemis upgrade.

[Almond Brown]

Escef, on 23 June 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

I see no reason why, we aren't talking about selectable ammo here. Pay for an upgrade and your standard ACs use caseless ammo that gets 33% more shots per ton, just adds a jam chance to your no-ultra ACs. This is no more complicated than Artemis upgrade.

But if he were to see reason, he could not act like a douche' now could he.

[Escef]

Almond Brown, on 23 June 2015 - 11:11 AM, said:

But if he were to see reason, he could not act like a douche' now could he.

Oh, I'm sure he'd find a way.

[DrxAbstract]

Khobai, on 23 June 2015 - 03:43 AM, said:

Except you can aim where your shots go in MWO.

TT had random hit locations.

So you actually kill mechs way faster than in TT. Despite the double armor.

True, you can aim where your shots go... But not many people here, despite the claims, can hit the exact spot they're aiming for every single time, or even 70% of the time. And hitting things in TT is not hard, but hitting where you want to is... Kind of like MWO.

Mechs in TT get one and two-shotted more often than they do in MWO, and when it happens in MWO it's either:

A. Headshot.
B. Rear Armor hits.
C. Ammo crits.

Suffice to say, MWO Mechs are considerably more resilient than the 'Doubled Armor' suggests. Being able to 'aim' is not a deciding factor.

Now nobody is talking about doubling ammo... Except for Missiles, which curiously enough didn't get the same 50% increase other weapons did. AC2s are not going from 75/ton to 150/ton, AC20s are not getting 14/ton. It's to move ammo from that 50% to a full 100% over the base value, which means doubled ammo, not 'doubling ammo'.

AC2: 100/ton
AC5/Ultra: 40/ton
AC10: 20/ton
AC20: 10/ton
SRM: 200/ton
LRM: 240/ton

Etc. It essentially saves 1 ton per 3 tons spent on ammo. Most MWO ammo builds would save 1, maybe 2 tons. Boating builds like ACs or SRM/LRM would average around 3 while excessive builds on Assaults could push the 4-5 ton mark. Not quite enough to free up space+tonnage to create monstrous, rolling death Mechs.

Weapons in TT typically carried 1-2 tons because those weapons had distinct characteristics that made them ideal versus Energy weapons in situations. We dont really have that in MWO as most every weapon is basically a slightly different way of killing your target.

It increases battle longevity by a small amount, refines some of the ammo-consuming builds, encourages a little more diversity and has virtually no effect on TTK... And should have been done when Armor was doubled.

[Yosharian]

It's not about armor values its about facing up against 12 enemy mechs.

[Bishop Steiner]

Alistair Winter, on 23 June 2015 - 04:01 AM, said:

In that case, why bring any ammo at all? Even within the parameters of silly Battletech fantasy, it makes no sense to me. And even if it was a valid lore-based argument, I wouldn't put much emphasis on it. I'd prefer seeing ammo count increased for the sake of seeing more stock builds being used. The Summoner, the Jagermech, the Blackjack, the Mauler... just so many iconic mechs that are hard to play because we need to increase both the amount of ammo and heat sinks for them to be viable against good opponents in min-maxed builds.

I'd rather increase ammo count and see more stock weapon loadouts (e.g. 2xAC5 and 2x.AC2 on the Jager) instead of keeping the current meta and talk about how players lack balls.

or allow them to unlock endo for Omnis and most of those mechs have problems solved.

As for IS mechs? If you are running out of ammo a lot, you built it wrong. All my favorite mechs are based around ammo weapons, and all can and do lay out 800-1000 pt damage matches with enough regularity to say they don't need an increase.

For CW? I don't honestly feel it's as big a deal as all that, but I could see some small ammo boost there. Especially for Defenders. Or even a reload feature. But I would want it to take a mech out of action for a full minute. (Maybe be sheltered so it can't be damaged, but definitely don't want to get all arcady with instant reloads.)

Yosharian, on 23 June 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

It's not about armor values its about facing up against 12 enemy mechs.

Well, to be fair, it's really more a convergence of both factors. 12 mechs would not be near an issue with 1/2 the armor, yes?

Which at least in part is mitigated by perfect convergence and pinpoint aiming.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 23 June 2015 - 12:10 PM.

[OznerpaG]

as far as the CW ammo depot goes, if the enemy was able to destroy it (and i mean both sides have a depot) that'd make for an interesting twist

but funny all the mechbuilding 'rules' apply to both PUGging and CW when they are (supposed to be) different modes, with CW being more of an endurance mode. if 1t of ammo PUGging is 150 damage, why can't the same 1t of ammo in CW be worth 200dmg without having to change the mech's loadout when you switch between the 2 match types?

Edited by JagdFlanker, 25 June 2015 - 06:05 PM.

[Chuck Jager]

Alistair Winter, on 23 June 2015 - 04:01 AM, said:

In that case, why bring any ammo at all? Even within the parameters of silly Battletech fantasy, it makes no sense to me. And even if it was a valid lore-based argument, I wouldn't put much emphasis on it. I'd prefer seeing ammo count increased for the sake of seeing more stock builds being used. The Summoner, the Jagermech, the Blackjack, the Mauler... just so many iconic mechs that are hard to play because we need to increase both the amount of ammo and heat sinks for them to be viable against good opponents in min-maxed builds.

I'd rather increase ammo count and see more stock weapon loadouts (e.g. 2xAC5 and 2x.AC2 on the Jager) instead of keeping the current meta and talk about how players lack balls.

And you think more ammo would help stock builds? I would need all hyper quirks combined to make a stock build work. If you want to see stock builds work please go read the books and play table top.

[Alistair Winter]

Chuck YeaGurr, on 25 June 2015 - 10:45 PM, said:

And you think more ammo would help stock builds? I would need all hyper quirks combined to make a stock build work. If you want to see stock builds work please go read the books and play table top.

A lot of the Clan stock builds are fairly decent already. And a lot of the Inner Sphere medium mech stock builds are alright too, except for the lack of ammo. The fact that it would help stock builds is beyond discussion. But my main argument is that it would help gameplay overall, so the fact that you don't think stock mechs are relevant to the discussion doesn't really make a difference.