19 replies to this topic

[Kin3ticX]

I am frequently seeing people stomping around in LRM Atlases. Please reconsider this. LRMs can be done right.

• Why even use a 100 ton lurmer with all the other options available? Are you getting any more performance or total survivability by upping a Stalker to an Atlas and perhaps downing a Raven-2X to a Locust? Consider then whole picture of tradeoffs. If thats all you have, I get that, but consider retooling or getting new 'Mechs.

• If you do bring a 100 ton 'mech, why would you then put LRMs in it? Stahp

• As a general rule, stop using Assaults as LRM platforms in CW. If you want to use LRMs properly, Consider HBK-4Js, TBT-7Ms, MDDs, SCRs, maybe ADRs w/ the latest patch. There are other alternates, but those are the common gotos right now. Again, if you are working with you got, I get that.

• If you play solo, limit yourself to one LRM platform. If all the other randos you end up with all bring 2-4 LRM mechs, you could end up waterlogged with too many LRM platforms. Think about it.

• As a coordinated 12, if you gotta have lurms, limit it to about 4-6 out of 48. Beyond that, you may see a backfire effect rather than dependability. You just need enough to get that flavor of indirect fire to compliment your overwhelming direct fire, yet, not handicapping your direct fire.

For the good of the realm

Edited by Kin3ticX, 17 June 2015 - 02:47 AM.

[Willard Phule]

Um...take a real good look at your bullet points there and think about it for a second.

How many of those LRM assaults are being piloted by experienced people, as opposed to new players in trial mechs?

It's worth thinking about. Perhaps you should go to Twitter and let Russ know that his choices of Trial Mechs are LRM heavy or something? It's not the player's fault...they can't afford their own mechs.

[Kin3ticX]

Willard Phule, on 17 June 2015 - 02:45 AM, said:

Um...take a real good look at your bullet points there and think about it for a second.

How many of those LRM assaults are being piloted by experienced people, as opposed to new players in trial mechs?

It's worth thinking about. Perhaps you should go to Twitter and let Russ know that his choices of Trial Mechs are LRM heavy or something? It's not the player's fault...they can't afford their own mechs.

Good point, but in this case, the instances I have seen were clearly custom 'mechs.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Willard Phule, on 17 June 2015 - 02:45 AM, said:

Um...take a real good look at your bullet points there and think about it for a second.

How many of those LRM assaults are being piloted by experienced people, as opposed to new players in trial mechs?

It's worth thinking about. Perhaps you should go to Twitter and let Russ know that his choices of Trial Mechs are LRM heavy or something? It's not the player's fault...they can't afford their own mechs.

The current rotation of trial mechs lack LRMs except the Mad Dog.

[Leiska]

Actually, don't take LRMs at all if fighting for an IS faction. Clanners spam ECM Hellbringers.

[Crockdaddy]

LURMs can have a roller, albeit a minor one. Just too many people take them. Direct fire > LRM always. I realize some of you LRM guys out there talk about your stats. I'd love to see your win / loss percentage.

[Flutterguy]

Eh, if you're trying to pad out your tonnage LRMs on an Atlas isn't so bad. I did it before I had a solid drop deck so I would have something to do while I slowly waddled into combat. Atlases without a speed tweak are never going to be able to peek well and it takes a very patient team to let you get to the front line. That being said, pure LRM boating is dumb in CW and an Atlas should carry at least an AC20 as a finisher.

[Wildstreak]

Well, it could be worse, you could have the players using LRMs in the manner I saw outside CW.

[ice trey]

Hell, I just want LRMs to be equally as effective as direct fire. Not better, not worse, just equal.

Last I played MWO, it pretty much boiled down to ERLL/Gauss -stravaganzas, and taking anything else got you laughed out of the game.

If taking any weapons system intended for use in that given range bracket gets you chewed out by your teammates, then it's a problem with the game. LRMs shouldn't be all-powerful, but they shouldn't be so easy to negate as to be ridiculed as "Useless against all but the dumbest pugs", either. I like to play a little bit of everything. Large, Medium, and Small Lasers, PPCs, Autocannons of every bore size, LRMs and SRMS, hell, even some MGs or maybe a flamer every now and again... but being forced to see so many builds and chassis collect dust because "It's not the meta" sounds like a mound of deuce to me.

The entire purpose of having a customization system seems moot when people just use it to make the same meta build.

[Monkey Lover]

A lot of people lrm when they're trying to master assault mechs. The master curve on assaults is long hard road.

[ArchAngelWC]

If you are a Clanner...why are you instructing Surats on their unit composition...just be quiet and kill it...

If you are a Surat...makes total sense you would be in Clan Wolf

[Tycon]

Power Creep happens :/. Some mechs like the atlas you described have no other foothold. That thing is so clunky and slow you can't brawl with in in CW, with no way to flank a long narrow path SRMs aren't an option. The atlas is also very fragile if anything focus fires it, alphas in general are high atm but clan laser alphas will core an atlas very quickly (sometimes in a few seconds). It's really a mech that is preforming so poorly it has no other alternative but use a niche strategy to avoid being killed. Optimally atlases should just never been taken into CW. If you want a hard punch and heavy damage in close range you are better of with any heavy mech for the mobility they offer. Assault mechs are incredibly fragile now, unless you pack serious damaging Dakka Dakka like a dire wolf or a crab the only tactic is to alpha then run to cover or use indirect fire.

I'm sorry you feel frustrated but it feels like a game balance / design problem in the poor customization and viability of weapon systems. And to be fair LRMS while nothing spectacular do corner mechs or limit mobility for supporting fire, they are far from useless, just very out preformed by lasers.

Edited by Tycon, 20 June 2015 - 02:25 AM.

[patataman]

OP: Good advice. I keep seeing LRM assaults in CW, slow stalkers with idk, 50? 60? LRM alphas. While these assaults stay in the rear, others have to tank for them. Not only that, but some of them keep asking for target locks.

I think too that highly mobile mechs (meds and lights, but also heavies if they are fast enough) are the best for LRMing. It's more useful to fire 10 missiles and hit with all of them than firing 50 and hit the side of a hill. Also, don't underestimate the psichological effect of the "Incoming missile" warning. But 5 missiles can do that, no need to fire 50. Mount a TAG or NARC to secure your own locks and counter ECM, and backup weapons to be able to bite at close range.

Tycon, on 20 June 2015 - 02:24 AM, said:

Some mechs like the atlas you described have no other foothold. That thing is so clunky and slow you can't brawl with in in CW, with no way to flank a long narrow path SRMs aren't an option. The atlas is also very fragile if anything focus fires it.

I've been playing with an alt f2p account for the last months, my only assault for CW was an AS7-D-DC, with 2 ERLL, AC 20 and 3xSRM6, with BASIC skills. (finally i managed to purchase and master another 2 variants last week ) It is the first Atlas i owned, but it has been a very effective mech. Going into the open is a bad idea, use terrain and your ECM. Long range trades are always bad against the clans, try to move to close range. And don't be afraid to take damage. It's an assault, it can resist some. Just torso twist and don't make yourself a target for the whole enemy team at the same time.

That drop deck has also a GRF-1S with 2xALRM5, ERPPC, 2xML and TAG. It is fantastic for LRM suppression fire. While it only fires 10 missiles at a time (and are usually set to chain fire), they reach their targets most of the time because it's fast and has jj's to fire from good positions and avoid terrain. I take advantage of the fact that many people don't mount AMS, my 5 missiles hit them, then they start running to cover and my team has 1 less enemy to worry about. And firing missiles to corners without a lock is too a great way to keep the supression.

[Wildstreak]

ice trey, on 19 June 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

The entire purpose of having a customization system seems moot when people just use it to make the same meta build.

The customization system has been broken since introduced to the board game back in the '80s.

[ice trey]

Wildstreak, on 20 June 2015 - 05:47 AM, said:

The customization system has been broken since introduced to the board game back in the '80s.

That's why I have only used canon mechs for pick up games, official tournaments only recognize canon designs, and generally treat anyone wanting to use custom mechs with apprehension.

Canon mechs generally aren't "Perfect", they range from "lackluster" to "really good", with most floating in the "Meh" to "OK" range. This works out nicely because if everything is just kind of "Meh" rather than perfect, then it balances things out pretty well, and allows for a lot more variation on the battlefield. I'd be a huge proponent of using Random Mech Tables if it didn't require a large supply of 'mechs with multiple duplicates.

If customization is used, you get like what you have here. People just looking to optimize and win before getting to the field, milking every last advantage they can. The problem is that if you go that route, it starts really reducing the pool of what you can and can't use to compete. Thus, why you have people refusing to use any light but certain Firestarter and Raven builds, a hundred and one Jagermech AC40 or dual Gauss builds but no Orions... so on and forth. Getting rid of the optimization component would bring far greater balance back to the game, and encourage people to branch out into a variety of different designs. Going back to Tabletop examples, I would be nervous, but willing to pit myself in a stock Shadowhawk against a 6M Wolverine, for example, but it's not a forgone conclusion that I'd lose. Likewise, myself in an Urbanmech against a Javelin? Not a foregone conclusion.

...but if I'm bringing a stock Dragon or Quickdraw to the table, and some other guy has used the customization rules to make an optimized, well-sinked flashbulb design of the same tonnage, even at the same tech-level, I'm far more likely to just throw in the towel, pack up my ****, and leave the game store before a single die is thrown. I've already had things stacked heavily against me from the start, so rather than spend 3 hours getting my teeth kicked in, I'd rather spend it doing something else. Battletech can easily be powergamed, but if it's not made clear that powergaming or casual play will be the intent from the get go, it leads to one player not getting any better at the game due to rofflestomping, and the other player being set up to lose. Good matches build player bases. Having power fantasies at someone elses' expense like that? It shrinks player bases.

It's the same reason why so many pugs on MWO cry bloody murder about being pitted against 12-man groups. There's a minute chance that they could be able to secure a victory, but facing an organized 12-man with voice chat when you're disorganized and either nobody is willing to take the lead of the group, or willing to listen to the lead, it's pretty well guaranteed you're going to get stomped. To PGI's benefit, though, they did clearly state that CW was meant for units and group play, whereas pugs will be at a disadvantage.

Edited by ice trey, 20 June 2015 - 07:13 PM.

[bad arcade kitty]

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Willard Phule, on 17 June 2015 - 02:45 AM, said:

Um...take a real good look at your bullet points there and think about it for a second.

How many of those LRM assaults are being piloted by experienced people, as opposed to new players in trial mechs?

it doesn't really matter, i's not an efficient use of weight. lurm assaults may have the same amount of launchers that an adder, the more so scr, can carry

p.s. i personally like to use lrm kit fox in cw

[S T I N G S]

I only use a LRM Mad Dog as it...
The Atlas really doesn't have any good things other than LRMS.
I would say that I like having the DDC on my team because of ECM.
The problem with lrms in CW is that too many people bring them then they get bad.
When you bring like only 1 or 2 each 12 then you have a steady balance also a person with NARC helps

[Kin3ticX]

ice trey, on 19 June 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

Hell, I just want LRMs to be equally as effective as direct fire. Not better, not worse, just equal.

Last I played MWO, it pretty much boiled down to ERLL/Gauss -stravaganzas, and taking anything else got you laughed out of the game.

If taking any weapons system intended for use in that given range bracket gets you chewed out by your teammates, then it's a problem with the game. LRMs shouldn't be all-powerful, but they shouldn't be so easy to negate as to be ridiculed as "Useless against all but the dumbest pugs", either. I like to play a little bit of everything. Large, Medium, and Small Lasers, PPCs, Autocannons of every bore size, LRMs and SRMS, hell, even some MGs or maybe a flamer every now and again... but being forced to see so many builds and chassis collect dust because "It's not the meta" sounds like a mound of deuce to me.

The entire purpose of having a customization system seems moot when people just use it to make the same meta build.

LRM spam is a Foo strategy. People need to realize that when they feel LRMs don't have enough power to keep them happy anymore, its the game telling them to find a new tactic.



I understand LRMs are a big weapon group in Btech, but don't include LRMs for the sake of LRMs in MWO.

In MWO, they provide a low skill floor and decent power. They skill scale some but not nearly as much skill scaling as direct fire weapons have.

[multisoul]

noobish anti-team players are unable to properly brawl, for that reason they run away and hide most of the game (espetially in CW) then they are being slaughtered as last survivor by overwhelming force. hence they stuff their mechs with lrm so they can shoot while hiding somewhere (which they also do horribly), but there are exceptions of course
this is no problem at all, hug a wall and listen to the rain (lrm rain that is) or punch the lrm boat point blank. lrm is not threat

Edited by multisoul, 22 June 2015 - 02:26 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Please, if you MUST bring LRMs, keep it to a Hunchie 4J or the Trebuchet, MAYBE at a Catapult, but really you probably can't get better than the hunchie for the weight. Leave the big boys at home, unless filled with non-LRM weapons.