523 replies to this topic

[PhoenixFire55]

Triordinant, on 26 June 2015 - 03:41 AM, said:

What I don't get is this: if they knew that 93% of MWO players are solo players and casual groups of 4 or less, why did they spend so much time, effort and money on a game mode that caters primarily to the remaining 7%?

Because its not true, thats why.

[TWIAFU]

Triordinant, on 26 June 2015 - 03:41 AM, said:

What I don't get is this: if they knew that 93% of MWO players are solo players and casual groups of 4 or less, why did they spend so much time, effort and money on a game mode that caters primarily to the remaining 7%?

He did NOT say solo players, he said "93% are GROUPS of 4 or less."

Read what is there and not what you want to be there.

And they made that mode, in case you did not know, this is MechWarrior/Battletech in 3052, and what is happening now is the Clan Invasion. There is a rich history and lore and you should read it.

[Triordinant]

PhoenixFire55, on 26 June 2015 - 03:51 AM, said:

Because its not true, thats why.

Russ says it is. Right here in his reply to the question from #EastIndy.

[Triordinant]

TWIAFU, on 26 June 2015 - 03:54 AM, said:

He did NOT say solo players, he said "93% are GROUPS of 4 or less."

So it's even LESS. If less than 15% play in groups and 93% of groups are 4 or less, that means only 2% of all MWO players are in groups of 5 or more. Even if it miraculously doubled and 30% played in groups that would mean only 4% of MWO players are in groups of 5 of more.

Edited by Triordinant, 26 June 2015 - 04:06 AM.

[TWIAFU]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 June 2015 - 03:50 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure the 12 man thought is mostly focused on Casual, not CW drops.

It would be absolute idiocy to remove 12 man from CW, but tbh, I really don't care if they remove them from Casual. Heck, I wouldn't mind Casual going back to 8v8. Hitreg and FPS would likely improve greatly for it.

Your right Bishop, they cannot do that without destroying that mode. But anytime someone wants to change groups that bleeds over into the PUG queue or CW queue.

This is one big thing about CW and groups that is ignored and should not be.

Personally Bishop, I do not think changing permitted group sizes is best. We did that once and did not go well for us. But if they feel the need to for the poor puggies, I can get behind it. But I do fear, with any change, it will not be enough. They will complain it is the 8 man that has to stop, then the 4 man. What comes after that?

Far as CW, now that we know these 12man stomps are BS. Not sure anything should be done here, minus other ideas of a new player gate, no trial mechs, stuff like that. Maybe a CW selector so you can choose to face only a 12 man unit or a 12 man skirmish, or either.

Wait times could very well be longer, but give and take. Longer wait time for a better match. This way people can choose who to fight, Unit or Skirmish.

What cannot allow to happen is let this GROUP game become overtly solo friendly. It can be accommodating to that playstyle but NOT at the cost of any part of the core game, the group.

[TWIAFU]

Triordinant, on 26 June 2015 - 04:03 AM, said:

So it's even LESS. If less than 15% play in groups and 93% of groups are 4 or less, that means only 3% of all MWO players are in groups of 5 or more. Even if it miraculously doubled and 30% played in groups that would mean only 6% of MWO players are in groups of 5 of more.

Again, you are reading something that is not there. Second time now.

He said NOTHING in the quote we are referring to about the % of solo droppers.

Read what is there and not what you want to be there.

It means people are grouping, in all sizes, instead of playing with themselves.

It also discounts claims of all these 12man unit stomps.



Here is a nugget people are glossing over;

ELO only really only goes up in group, else it stays roughly the same.

Edited by TWIAFU, 26 June 2015 - 04:15 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

TWIAFU, on 26 June 2015 - 04:03 AM, said:

Your right Bishop, they cannot do that without destroying that mode. But anytime someone wants to change groups that bleeds over into the PUG queue or CW queue.

This is one big thing about CW and groups that is ignored and should not be.

Personally Bishop, I do not think changing permitted group sizes is best. We did that once and did not go well for us. But if they feel the need to for the poor puggies, I can get behind it. But I do fear, with any change, it will not be enough. They will complain it is the 8 man that has to stop, then the 4 man. What comes after that?

Far as CW, now that we know these 12man stomps are BS. Not sure anything should be done here, minus other ideas of a new player gate, no trial mechs, stuff like that. Maybe a CW selector so you can choose to face only a 12 man unit or a 12 man skirmish, or either.

Wait times could very well be longer, but give and take. Longer wait time for a better match. This way people can choose who to fight, Unit or Skirmish.

What cannot allow to happen is let this GROUP game become overtly solo friendly. It can be accommodating to that playstyle but NOT at the cost of any part of the core game, the group.

CW just needs to be BETTER, as a game mode. Make it quicker, more involved and rewarding, and the MM issues will solve themselves, largely (yes, people will still whine...people will always whine).

As for Casual? I hear what you are saying but we can't let ourselves be paralyzed from into doing nothing, simply because there is a chance something might not go right, or people will whine more (see above comment, lol) if we do anything. It needs fixing. Part of the 12 man stomp in Casual is the simple mechanics of 12 v 12 focus fire. I-2 mechs cannot carry hard enough to save the day most times in 12 man. 8 man reduces the focus fire, lets the laughably small maps be more useful, and as said will reduce server work in each match. We started at 8v8. and some people cried for 12v12. Don't recall much asking for 4v4. (though I see perfect applications for 4v4 and 8v8 for scout missions and such in CW, too)

It should also improve TTK, as you are less likely to catch as much fire at any given moment. As for tactics, lets be honest, the unit size, map size and map simplicity (maps have to be "balanced", lol) really rule out any but the most rudimentary of tactics anyhow. And 95% of the playbase can't even spell tactics. So that would be a nonstarter (though I hear people try to play that card often enough)

[Triordinant]

TWIAFU, on 26 June 2015 - 04:12 AM, said:

Again, you are reading something that is not there. Second time now.

He said NOTHING in the quote we are referring to about the % of solo droppers.

Read what is there and not what you want to be there.

It means people are grouping, in all sizes, instead of playing with themselves.

It also discounts claims of all these 12man unit stomps.

I'll be forgiving because English is not your first language. Back in February, Russ revealed in the Town Hall that only 13.5% of all activity on MWO servers takes place in CW. EVEN IF as much as 30% of all MWO players played in groups, 93% of those are groups of 4 or less. That means 7% of groups are 5 or more. Even if 30% of all MWO players played in groups (twice the actual number) that means less than 3% of ALL of the MWO players are in groups of 5 or more. Do you understand now? There is math involved.

[TWIAFU]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 June 2015 - 04:17 AM, said:

CW just needs to be BETTER, as a game mode. Make it quicker, more involved and rewarding, and the MM issues will solve themselves, largely (yes, people will still whine...people will always whine).

As for Casual? I hear what you are saying but we can't let ourselves be paralyzed from into doing nothing, simply because there is a chance something might not go right, or people will whine more (see above comment, lol) if we do anything. It needs fixing. Part of the 12 man stomp in Casual is the simple mechanics of 12 v 12 focus fire. I-2 mechs cannot carry hard enough to save the day most times in 12 man. 8 man reduces the focus fire, lets the laughably small maps be more useful, and as said will reduce server work in each match. We started at 8v8. and some people cried for 12v12. Don't recall much asking for 4v4. (though I see perfect applications for 4v4 and 8v8 for scout missions and such in CW, too)

It should also improve TTK, as you are less likely to catch as much fire at any given moment. As for tactics, lets be honest, the unit size, map size and map simplicity (maps have to be "balanced", lol) really rule out any but the most rudimentary of tactics anyhow. And 95% of the playbase can't even spell tactics. So that would be a nonstarter (though I hear people try to play that card often enough)

Nice to have a real debate with someone and toss ideas back and forth. Gave me couple points to think about. Thank you.



I cannot agree with you more on the lack of depth at this time with relation to CW. It needs more and the sooner the better. CW is end game without really having a 'game' to it, yet.

Glad we are on the same side, think I would enjoy dropping with you.

[TWIAFU]

Triordinant, on 26 June 2015 - 04:21 AM, said:

I'll be forgiving because English is not your first language. Back in February, Russ revealed in the Town Hall that only 13.5% of all activity on MWO servers takes place in CW. EVEN IF as much as 30% of all MWO players played in groups, 93% of those are groups of 4 or less. That means 7% of groups are 5 or more. Even if 30% of all MWO players played in groups (twice the actual number) that means less than 3% of ALL of the MWO players are in groups of 5 or more. Do you understand now? There is math involved.

Your funny.

Here I thought we were talking about a specific quote, the one we have been quoting, and not something said 4 months ago.

I know for sure we were not talking about a bunch of 'what if's" but what was specifically stated in the quote and not what you personally interjected into someones statement.

[PhoenixFire55]

Triordinant, on 26 June 2015 - 03:54 AM, said:

Russ says it is. Right here in his reply to the question from #EastIndy.

A lot of people say a lot of things. Ask yourself your own question, why would they "cater" to mere 7% of population if it really is just 7% hm? All they do is for the sake of $$$ and getting $$$ is their only goal, so ...

[Lugh]

Triordinant, on 26 June 2015 - 04:03 AM, said:

So it's even LESS. If less than 15% play in groups and 93% of groups are 4 or less, that means only 2% of all MWO players are in groups of 5 or more. Even if it miraculously doubled and 30% played in groups that would mean only 4% of MWO players are in groups of 5 of more.

Spurious Math bending is spurious math bending. You are attempting to make the statistics say what you want them to say. I play in groups of 6-7 each night easily and we rarely see a true PUB drop with less than that number of tagged people on the other side.

[Triordinant]

TWIAFU, on 26 June 2015 - 04:31 AM, said:

Your funny.

Here I thought we were talking about a specific quote, the one we have been quoting, and not something said 4 months ago.

I know for sure we were not talking about a bunch of 'what if's" but what was specifically stated in the quote and not what you personally interjected into someones statement.

The bottom line is less than 5% of MWO players play in groups of 5 or more, therefore my original question stands: why did they spend so much time, effort and money on a game mode that caters primarily to such a small minority?

Lugh, on 26 June 2015 - 04:35 AM, said:

Spurious Math bending is spurious math bending. You are attempting to make the statistics say what you want them to say. I play in groups of 6-7 each night easily and we rarely see a true PUB drop with less than that number of tagged people on the other side.

The statistics speak for themselves. I don't have to make them say anything. Less than 5% of all MWO players play in groups of 5 or more and nothing you or I say will change that. Math is an exact science.

Edited by Triordinant, 26 June 2015 - 04:40 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

PhoenixFire55, on 26 June 2015 - 04:32 AM, said:

A lot of people say a lot of things. Ask yourself your own question, why would they "cater" to mere 7% of population if it really is just 7% hm? All they do is for the sake of $$$ and getting $$$ is their only goal, so ...

If they're smart, then they have a fairly good idea about what part of the population is spending more money. So it depends on how much that 7% is spending. That being said, it's not likely that everyone who currently plays 12-man or 10-man games will instantly quit if that option is no longer available. Some people will quit and they'll likely be vocal about it. But I'd be surprised if it was as much as 1/14th of the player population instantly quitting over a change like that.

Triordinant, on 26 June 2015 - 04:37 AM, said:

The statistics speak for themselves. I don't have to make them say anything. Less than 5% of all MWO players play in groups of 5 or more and nothing you or I say will change that. Math is an exact science.

I see your math and raise you my anecdotal evidence

[Triordinant]

PhoenixFire55, on 26 June 2015 - 04:32 AM, said:

A lot of people say a lot of things. Ask yourself your own question, why would they "cater" to mere 7% of population if it really is just 7% hm? All they do is for the sake of $$$ and getting $$$ is their only goal, so ...

My guess would be they made an emotional decision even though it was a bad business decision. They don't have (as far as I know) a Board of Directors to tell them otherwise. Maybe they gambled that the dozen different reasons why most players can't or won't join groups would miraculously disappear when they created CW and all those soloists would suddenly group up. They lost.

Edited by Triordinant, 26 June 2015 - 04:47 AM.

[Tastian]

We cannot remove 5-12 man groups. We had that once. It was bad. We also cannot continue allowing 12 mans to stomp noobs. We either need strict ELO brackets or solo/group queue in CW like regular drops.

But. You know what. It doesn't matter how we discuss this here because PGI won't read this thread anyway.

[That Guy]

I dont play in large groups any more, and have not for a few months. however, i do think that perhaps the group cue should be restricted to a max of 4 people groups.there are more options now for unrestricted large group activites, be it CW or private matches. CW should stay as it is. freeform. hell, if public groups are limited to a lance, maybe its time to let groups back into the standard public cue? just get rid of the segrigated group cue. if there is going to be server splitting it may help alleviate having potentially 6 different public cues (group and public for all three servers). 1-12 stomps happen so often any way i doubt it will matter much any more

I dont like having to tell a freind of mine that i shouldn't/cant play with them until they get better acquainted with the game because the group cue can be just that brutal.

but ultimately no matter what we want or what PGI does people will get mad.

[Lugh]

Triordinant, on 26 June 2015 - 04:41 AM, said:

My guess would be they made an emotional decision even though it was a bad business decision. They don't have (as far as I know) a Board of Directors to tell them otherwise. Maybe they gambled that the dozen different reasons why most players can't or won't join groups would miraculously disappear when they created CW and all those soloists would suddenly group up. They lost.

Likely incorrect. They likely looked at the samples of the people loving 12 man groups and large group play and found that they were the most invested in mech packs of their audience.

Sorry freescrubs, you want your way? Buy some stuff from PGI to get heard.

[Alistair Winter]

Tastian, on 26 June 2015 - 04:45 AM, said:

We cannot remove 5-12 man groups. We had that once. It was bad. We also cannot continue allowing 12 mans to stomp noobs. We either need strict ELO brackets or solo/group queue in CW like regular drops.

But. You know what. It doesn't matter how we discuss this here because PGI won't read this thread anyway.

The same can be said about 99.9% of the threads on the forum. So it's just an academic discussion for fun. I'm curious if anyone actually has a solution beyond "we just need ten times as many players and much better matchmaking and a lot better game modes and better gameplay balance".

[TWIAFU]

Triordinant, on 26 June 2015 - 04:37 AM, said:

The bottom line is less than 5% of MWO players play in groups of 5 or more, therefore my original question stands: why did they spend so much time, effort and money on a game mode that caters primarily to such a small minority?


The statistics speak for themselves. I don't have to make them say anything. Less than 5% of all MWO players play in groups of 5 or more and nothing you or I say will change that. Math is an exact science.

Why are you focused on group sizes and just that one when it clearly state that 93% of players are in a group, size does not matter, the group does, in a group game. 93% of players in a group is not a minority. You are selectively taking points out of context to support a failed argument while ignoring the whole picture.

Game modes are for different size GROUPS, the modes are not specifically set for a size, but have size options.

By your "logic" if only 5%, your "math", play in groups of 5 or more, then supporting large groups needs to end. Since 93% play in groups and such a small amount solo, solo play must end being supported. Instead of allowing people to play with whom they want when they want and in what size group they want, you want it only limited to 4 or less. Thus ending CW, hampering Units, and taking us back years in development where we had to choose to leave friends behind.