77 replies to this topic

[Malcolm Vordermark]

DjPush, on 26 June 2015 - 08:37 AM, said:

Sooo... Are they IS mechs retrofitted with clan tech? Are they considered Clan mechs or IS mechs? Can't wait for these guys! I already have the money set aside for them!

They are IS designs that SLDF took with them when they left the IS. Since those that left eventually became the Clans they still have the designs. Long story short, they are IS designs built with Clan tech. In lore omnimechs were considered more versatile, powerful, and expensive. Thus, the standard battlemechs like the IIC mechs were used as garrison forces in most cases.

In this game they will have the best of both worlds: clan tech with IS construction rules. Only the actual hard points of the mech will serve to limit them. Currently, some of the best Clan mechs have oversized engines to help curb them from some of the min max possibilities. I'm interested to see what comes of introducing Clan battlemechs.

I would also point out that this leads me to believe the IS omnimechs will face Clan omnimech construction rules with IS tech.

[Juodas Varnas]

I dread the day they come.

As if the power-creep wasn't bad enough already...

[Mcgral18]

Innocent, on 26 June 2015 - 09:17 AM, said:

Everyone is making major assumptions about how it is implemented. There is no reason to believe they will change the locked equipment/upgrades from what is the current clan build rules.

Russ said that's exactly what they could do; change engines, swap upgrades.



The rules and limitations weren't stated, but they'll be able to.

[oldradagast]

LordBraxton, on 26 June 2015 - 09:05 AM, said:

LOL @ the power creep comment, that was good.

Yeah, PGI can take existing models, mess with them a little, and sell upraded OP mechs behind paywalls with almost no actual labor!!!

It's the power creep\paywall genius of the Clan Invasion (? lol) with 1/10th of the work!

Russ is a shrewd business man masquerading as a terrible game designer.

My suspicion exactly. Keep the power level rising, making older mechs obsolete, and then nerf stuff once it is available to the masses. It's a great grind, at least until people realize the silliness of it all - the mechbays full of now-nerfed mechs - and get off the treadmill.

[CDLord HHGD]

DJ, late to the conversation.

Ignore Paigan. Even though he gave good info, his d*ckish delivery kills any notion of intelligence from him and he has a pattern of it.

Sarna is your friend though....

[ScarecrowES]

This honestly won't mean a whole to gameplay overall. Remember, we're talking about 4 mechs here, and not the most flexible of the group. The Jenner IIC base version is moe or less an Oxide with slightly better stats. The base version of the Hunched IIC will be worthless in-game so expect it to drop the AC 20s for UAC 10s and add some ammo or speed. Orions and highlanders as clan mechs might just make completely disused chassis usable.

Its not the end of the world.

[0bsidion]

Juodas Varnas, on 26 June 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

I dread the day they come.

As if the power-creep wasn't bad enough already...

I think it's more than a little early to be all doom and gloom. About 95% of the Clan's arsenal is highly dps based. So without significant hardpoint inflation, IIc mechs will more likely be over-sized kittens.

And not all new mech packs have been power creep. I think you're conveniently forgetting Wave II. Or as I call it, the largest collection of junk mechs I own.

[Big Tin Man]

oldradagast, on 26 June 2015 - 09:29 AM, said:

My suspicion exactly. Keep the power level rising, making older mechs obsolete, and then nerf stuff once it is available to the masses. It's a great grind, at least until people realize the silliness of it all - the mechbays full of now-nerfed mechs - and get off the treadmill.

So we don't want to have timeline appropriate mechs? Most of these mechs were from 28xx or so. And once they land for cbills, they'll be cheaper than their omni-counterparts. And getting a wider selection of clan mechs out there (with some at a affordable price point) is a bad thing?

My guess is that they'll restrict the range of engine size fairly harshly to try to keep the power creep under control, or lower the max armor as the hunchie was strictly a dualist and the jenner was strictly a second line mech.

[1453 R]

Also sometimes of lower tonnage. Wildly, in some cases - assault-weight Pixhawk IIC, anyone?

Anyways. Ignoring the idiocy for a moment...

'IIC' 'Mechs are basically Clan redesigns of Inner Sphere/Star League 'Mechs. This is distinct from 'C' 'Mechs, which are Clan retrofits of existing individual Spheroid 'Mechs. A Hunchback-C, for example, is built on a Sphere 200STD engine, with Sphere STD structure, probably Sphere STD armor, but simply exchanges the Sphere AC/20 for a cUAC/20 and the lasers for ER versions of same. And probably some extra ammo or heat sinks to take up the extra weight, but possibly not even that - 'C' 'Mechs were essentially the Clans deciding that wasting production capacity on captured worlds was bad, so they continued to build Spheroid 'Mechs to issue to their garrison troops to free up the elite forces for offensive operations.

Yes, Clan solahma or rear and I mean rear garrison units during the Invasion were often in Sphere equipment. Sometimes not even Sphere-C equipment. It happened, read it.

Anyways. IIC 'Mechs, on the other hand, are when Clan engineers sit down with the blueprints for, say, that same Hunchback up there and then create their own schematic for a version of the design incorporating CLan technology, and Clan design principles/ideals from the ground up. The Hunchback-IIC, for example, is generally used as an old, washed-up warrior's ride to Valhalla, or by somewhat unscrupulous sibkin looking to guarantee the single kill in their Trial that guarantees they graduate as Warriors by shooting the hell out of their opponent with dual cUAC/20s. It includes a Clan engine, a 200XL in this case, I believe, Clan structure, Clan armor, Clan electronics, and obviously Clan weapons, and it cannot be produced in regular Sphere production facilities.

To put it short - 'C' 'Mechs are Mixtech machines on the Clan side, designed for cheap garrison of worlds unlikely to see serious attacks. IIC are Clan re-engineered designs based on existing Spheroid (or, more often, Star League) equipment, which is still garrison gear but is generally issued to either garrison commanders/'elite' garrison warriors, if there is such a thing, or issued to worlds at increased risk of attack.

Interestingly, though largely unrelated to the IIC discussion, some Star League 'Mechs actually exist bone-stock in Clan toumans. The original ON1-K Orion is actually a thing in many Clans, considered a sacred link to Kerensky and piloted by, sometimes, even Bloodnamed warriors as a ceremonial design. Clan Wolf worked up an Orion IIC, but reactions to it were...mixed, as I recall. Either way. Just a piece of random lore I found interesting when browsing through Sarna one day.

[Alan Davion]

Kristov Kerensky, on 26 June 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:

No, it doesn't, OmniMechs are what they are and follow the rules of TT pretty much down the line. IIC Mechs are a different type of Mech, they aren't Omnis for starters, and they use the same construction rules as IS Mechs, so you can swap the engines, ES/FF, but they are constructed using Clan Tech, so it's Clan XL engines, Clan ES/FF, and Clan weapons. They are based on the original IS Mech but redesigned and sometimes of higher tonnage than the IS chassis they are based on.

They'll be fun, and they are the proof that we'll see Clan BattleMechs as well as OmniMechs, which means the Kodiak can't be too far off!

That's not completely true.

The Griffin/Shadow Hawk/Hellhound (Wolverine IIC) were actually lighter than their original IS base. Lighter by a whopping 15 tons for the Griffin, 10 for the Hawk and 5 for the Wolvie.

The Rifleman stayed where it was at 65 tons, but the Phoenix Hawk got a massive 35 tons heavier, making it an assault class mech. The Warhammer got a measly 5 tons heavier, and the Marauder got another 10 tons added on.

Problem is, the IIC versions of these mechs don't really add much to the game, and in some cases actually are probably worse. Looking at you Phoenix Hawk IIC. Just 2 UAC/10s and a Machine Gun?

That said, out of all those mechs the only ones we'd be likely to see are the Griffin/S.Hawk and Wolvie, as the only ones you can't more or less directly duplicate are the S.Hawk and Wolvie... The 2D2 S.Hawk comes close, but not close enough, as the IIC holds 2 more lasers than you can get on the 2D2.

I do hope however with the announcement of the IICs we'll see some more Non-Omni Clan mechs. I know a lot of people would be looking forward to the Grizzly, Kingfisher and Kodiak. Hell, I'd love to see the Kodiak in the MWO art style.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

I felt like I've been forgetting something, and then it hit me.

I don't care about any of these mechs. BRING ME MY SUPERNOVA!

[keith]

fyi alot of the IIc mechs are heavier too. huncie is a 55 ton mech. dual uac 20 and jjs is the stock mech. will be op in here, but no armor. double tap for 80 dam sure:D

[FupDup]

I just wonder why they're skipping more Clan Omnis, which wouldn't open up a can of worms with different construction rules. We do have at least one more Omni available per weight class.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Alan Davion, on 26 June 2015 - 09:48 AM, said:

That's not completely true.

The Griffin/Shadow Hawk/Hellhound (Wolverine IIC) were actually lighter than their original IS base. Lighter by a whopping 15 tons for the Griffin, 10 for the Hawk and 5 for the Wolvie.

The Rifleman stayed where it was at 65 tons, but the Phoenix Hawk got a massive 35 tons heavier, making it an assault class mech. The Warhammer got a measly 5 tons heavier, and the Marauder got another 10 tons added on.

Problem is, the IIC versions of these mechs don't really add much to the game, and in some cases actually are probably worse. Looking at you Phoenix Hawk IIC. Just 2 UAC/10s and a Machine Gun?

That said, out of all those mechs the only ones we'd be likely to see are the Griffin/S.Hawk and Wolvie, as the only ones you can't more or less directly duplicate are the S.Hawk and Wolvie... The 2D2 S.Hawk comes close, but not close enough, as the IIC holds 2 more lasers than you can get on the 2D2.

I do hope however with the announcement of the IICs we'll see some more Non-Omni Clan mechs. I know a lot of people would be looking forward to the Grizzly, Kingfisher and Kodiak. Hell, I'd love to see the Kodiak in the MWO art style.

Yes, some are lighter, some are heavier, and some are the same tonnage, they are simply original Star League Defense Force Mechs redesigned using all Clan Tech, it was a chance for FASA to create sales with stuff they simply recycled And people say PGI is just going for a cash grab? Hells kids, they got NOTHING on FASA when it comes to that!

And yeah, the IICs are the first sign we'll see the Clan BattleMechs like the Grizzly, Kodiak and Stone Rhino, non-Omnis that are big, bad and really awesome looking in their original artwork, can't wait to see what Alex does with them...*drool*

[Juodas Varnas]

0bsidion, on 26 June 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

I think it's more than a little early to be all doom and gloom. About 95% of the Clan's arsenal is highly dps based. So without significant hardpoint inflation, IIc mechs will more likely be over-sized kittens.

And not all new mech packs have been power creep. I think you're conveniently forgetting Wave II. Or as I call it, the largest collection of junk mechs I own.

As if the ECMbringer didn't come with Wave 2...

I need some ice cream to lift my spirits up.

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 26 June 2015 - 10:02 AM.

[Alan Davion]

FupDup, on 26 June 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

I just wonder why they're skipping more Clan Omnis, which wouldn't open up a can of worms with different construction rules. We do have at least one more Omni available per weight class.

Several in some cases. The Piranha and Fire Falcon lights, there's still the Dragonfly, Phantom, Pouncer, Battle Cobra, Grendel, Nobori-Nin, Black Lanner all in the medium weight class. That's a lot of medium mechs still to be used to try and unseat the Storm Crow from it's throne.

The Linebacker, Crossbow and Night Gyr heavies. And of course the Naga, Kingfisher and Turkina assaults.

Then of course you have the non-omni mechs which a lot of people are dying for, which I've gone over in my previous post.

[1453 R]

Alan Davion, on 26 June 2015 - 09:48 AM, said:

That's not completely true.

The Griffin/Shadow Hawk/Hellhound (Wolverine IIC) were actually lighter than their original IS base. Lighter by a whopping 15 tons for the Griffin, 10 for the Hawk and 5 for the Wolvie.

The Rifleman stayed where it was at 65 tons, but the Phoenix Hawk got a massive 35 tons heavier, making it an assault class mech. The Warhammer got a measly 5 tons heavier, and the Marauder got another 10 tons added on.

Problem is, the IIC versions of these mechs don't really add much to the game, and in some cases actually are probably worse. Looking at you Phoenix Hawk IIC. Just 2 UAC/10s and a Machine Gun?

That said, out of all those mechs the only ones we'd be likely to see are the Griffin/S.Hawk and Wolvie, as the only ones you can't more or less directly duplicate are the S.Hawk and Wolvie... The 2D2 S.Hawk comes close, but not close enough, as the IIC holds 2 more lasers than you can get on the 2D2.

I do hope however with the announcement of the IICs we'll see some more Non-Omni Clan mechs. I know a lot of people would be looking forward to the Grizzly, Kingfisher and Kodiak. Hell, I'd love to see the Kodiak in the MWO art style.

The Kingfisher's actually an OmniMech, just an old one with a STD engine. Even then, it's not entirely awful as I recall, though it'll suffer from podspace restrictions as well. 24 tons, I think, before armor concerns? So...all right, maybe not great, but who knows. The variants on tap don't look awful. Maybe it could get not an insanely restrictive twist arc and no elbows like the Executioner got saddled with.

Edited by 1453 R, 26 June 2015 - 10:02 AM.

[Alan Davion]

Yeah I corrected myself in my subsequent post. Had to pull up my TROs to set myself straight.

[FupDup]

Alan Davion, on 26 June 2015 - 10:01 AM, said:

Several in some cases. The Piranha and Fire Falcon lights, there's still the Dragonfly, Phantom, Pouncer, Battle Cobra, Grendel, Nobori-Nin, Black Lanner all in the medium weight class. That's a lot of medium mechs still to be used to try and unseat the Storm Crow from it's throne.

The Linebacker, Crossbow and Night Gyr heavies. And of course the Naga, Kingfisher and Turkina assaults.

Then of course you have the non-omni mechs which a lot of people are dying for, which I've gone over in my previous post.

The Piranha isn't an Omnimech.

For unseating the Crow, I'd bet on the Huntsman. Only has Nova speed and weight, but it gets JJs and 1 ton more pod space than the Crow. Plenty of hardpoints to choose from.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

keith, on 26 June 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:

fyi alot of the IIc mechs are heavier too. huncie is a 55 ton mech. dual uac 20 and jjs is the stock mech. will be op in here, but no armor. double tap for 80 dam sure:D

None of the announced IIC mechs are heavier according to the wiki. I believe the Warhammer IIC and Marauder IIC are heavier than their IS counterparts, though.

Edited by Rouken, 26 June 2015 - 10:06 AM.