5 replies to this topic

[SirLANsalot]

So all this talk about the IIC mechs eventually coming is going to bring about a whole new ball of balancing wax to work on.


These mechs are normal mechs, not Omnipod clan mechs, meaning they are Clans that use the normal building rules that IS use right now. With there lighter weapons and smaller XL's, these normal mechs are going to be quite powerful. Granted they will not have inflated hard points like IS mechs do, due to the fact that Clan weapons are lighter and better then IS ones. These mechs will be able to freely choose between Endo/Ferro instead of being stuck wtih one or both, and these are CLAN endo/ferro, so 7 crits each! There will be a few things these mechs will not be able to change still, like they will always have DHS as clans do not have SHS, but its not like thats a bad thing (we all use DHS anyways). They will always have XL engs, as I do not thing clans have standards (I may be wrong on that tho).

Now granted, those mechs are no more armored then there IS counterparts, so they will be just as easy to kill as before, but they will be shooting back with 2x the power then before. A Jenner IIC with just 4 CMPL is going to be dealing 32 damage every time it shoots, vs the IS one doing only 24 with 4 MPL. None of the them are any faster either but again, these mechs are using CLAN weapons, for far more effectiveness.

Now don't get me wrong, I like these mechs and wish for them to show up ASAP. However from a game play/game balance view, these mechs are worrisome. Take for example Clan Ghost Bears Totem mech the Kodiak, thats a normal mech too, and if it ever showed up it would instantly be the most OP thing on the field just because of the fact of clan weapons.



So there is going to be some interesting game balance in the future. Personally I would leave well enough alone and just let the mechs come out normally and see what kind of impact they make on the game. As always, let the PLAYERS balance themselves. Paper beats Rock and Rock beats Scissor, but it takes time for the players to find the right Rock to beat the Scissor.

[Wintersdark]

No quirks, mind you.

Unfortuantely, the Jenner and Highlander both are fairly poorly quirked, and as such stand to really look bad in comparison, but mechs like the Hunchback?

A Grid Iron or HBK4G can run their loadout with a Standard engine, moving faster, and outputting the same DPS as the IIC Clan variants. The Clan IIC with dual gauss will have a 30pt alpha which is superior, but with basically no backup weapons, and a 200XL vs. the GI with a Std250 engine and backup 2MPLAS. Orions, as well, are fairly heavily quirked.

It'll be a good time to revisit Jenner and Highlander quirks.

[Alan Davion]

SirLANsalot, on 27 June 2015 - 12:14 PM, said:

So all this talk about the IIC mechs eventually coming is going to bring about a whole new ball of balancing wax to work on.

These mechs are normal mechs, not Omnipod clan mechs, meaning they are Clans that use the normal building rules that IS use right now. With there lighter weapons and smaller XL's, these normal mechs are going to be quite powerful. Granted they will not have inflated hard points like IS mechs do, due to the fact that Clan weapons are lighter and better then IS ones. These mechs will be able to freely choose between Endo/Ferro instead of being stuck wtih one or both, and these are CLAN endo/ferro, so 7 crits each! There will be a few things these mechs will not be able to change still, like they will always have DHS as clans do not have SHS, but its not like thats a bad thing (we all use DHS anyways). They will always have XL engs, as I do not thing clans have standards (I may be wrong on that tho).

This is incorrect, many "Second Line" or "Garrison" mechs, do indeed use STD engines. The Locust/Griffin/S.Hawk IICs use standards, heck, only the Phoenix Hawk IIC is the only Unseen mech that uses an XL engine.

There are even some Omni-Mechs that use STDs, the Battle Cobra and Kingfisher for instance.

SirLANsalot, on 27 June 2015 - 12:14 PM, said:

Now granted, those mechs are no more armored then there IS counterparts, so they will be just as easy to kill as before, but they will be shooting back with 2x the power then before. A Jenner IIC with just 4 CMPL is going to be dealing 32 damage every time it shoots, vs the IS one doing only 24 with 4 MPL. None of the them are any faster either but again, these mechs are using CLAN weapons, for far more effectiveness.

Now don't get me wrong, I like these mechs and wish for them to show up ASAP. However from a game play/game balance view, these mechs are worrisome. Take for example Clan Ghost Bears Totem mech the Kodiak, thats a normal mech too, and if it ever showed up it would instantly be the most OP thing on the field just because of the fact of clan weapons.

So there is going to be some interesting game balance in the future. Personally I would leave well enough alone and just let the mechs come out normally and see what kind of impact they make on the game. As always, let the PLAYERS balance themselves. Paper beats Rock and Rock beats Scissor, but it takes time for the players to find the right Rock to beat the Scissor.

The problem with what you say here is, the players will never be able to balance things out properly as they will always go for the most OP build they can manage. It's up to PGI to take all the telemetry and provide the proper balance for these new series of mechs.

[Mcgral18]

You're wrong about heatsinks and engines; Clams have both.


In fact, the HGN and Orion both come with STD engines.


The Jenner IIC can spend 8 tons and 24 heat for 32 damage, to the 6 tons and 24 damage (and less range) for 30 damage of the Jenner F.


As a Jenner...cXLs won't be as big an advantage because they're all CT. It's the other mechs that will benefit greatly.


Arctic Cheetah still beats the Jenner on laser firepower, because it has 50% more hardpoints.

Construction restrictions still haven't been declared, but they won't be coming with quirks (which make a big difference) and likely no hardpoint inflation either.


See my threads if you want to see what kind of payload they can bring.


Some limitations can make them less great; unrestricted they'll be pretty good.


PGI also has to create half of the mechs in the pack, and the current 6 aren't exceedingly powerful due to hardpoints...but PGI can easily fix that and bring Dual Gauss Orions and HGNs. At the moment, only the Hunch can Dual Gauss, while having the agility of a Assault mech.


PGI will decide the level of firepower with the 6 variants it creates.

[Deathlike]

All I can say is... if the current Clan Omnimechs were "converted" into Battlemechs, balance would be broken far beyond your imagination. Hello Timbergods, Summoners that don't suck, and Direwolves that truly can move. Yes, it would break things for sure.

On the other hand, all the currently bad Clan Omnimechs would actually be significantly worse at the same time... like the Gargoyle-Prime, Mist Lynx-Prime, and various other variants.

So, in some ways, they may have to be reigned in, but also take actual care into not making naturally bad mechs (potentially the Orion, which is very meddling currently for the IS) to stay bad due to Clan Battlemech construction rules.

[SirLANsalot]

Alan Davion, on 27 June 2015 - 12:26 PM, said:

The problem with what you say here is, the players will never be able to balance things out properly as they will always go for the most OP build they can manage. It's up to PGI to take all the telemetry and provide the proper balance for these new series of mechs.

Its called Perfect Imbalance (this vid has been posted over and over on these forums over the years). When clans first came, players screamed bloody murder about how OP the clans were. However they were not OP by any means, yes they were stronger on paper, but the game mechanics behind them (how they applied there damage) was of a MUCH higher skill level then Jo Idiot could understand. After a while, people stopped crying OP about clans, after understanding how to kill them. Now there no different then any other mech out there, just they shoot pretty rainbow colors when they shoot at things. This also brings up the issue of PGI attempting to balance something that wasn't balanced, and thus overkilling certain aspects. Like the CERLL during being upped to some ungodly duration (1.5 seconds was ******* long enough!) because "Clams were OP".

This was an example of imbalance taking its course, just took longer for it to happen in this game, then it would happen in say in other games. Now the IS have TONS of options in mechs to fight clans, they have lots of chassis that do there job very well. With the advent of the Mauler coming, this will only get better for the IS as that mech is an Anti Clan mech from the get-go.

Edited by SirLANsalot, 27 June 2015 - 01:07 PM.