59 replies to this topic

[MandyB]

AlphaToaster, on 01 July 2015 - 12:34 PM, said:

The scoring isn't calculated in a way that balances unit sizes. With some preplanning PGI could have implemented a more fair scoring system, but the way it is now supports the argument to limit unit sizes. It supports the argument so well in fact, I'd dare say this event was intended to provide a supporting argument. With the timing and all being right after it was discussed.

I hope the Unit Dog Tags have the faction prominently displayed on them. Faction pride!

That would be nice have the medallion or dog tag have the faction art with the unit name under or inside it.

[Soulstrom]

MandyB, on 01 July 2015 - 02:22 PM, said:

That would be nice have the medallion or dog tag have the faction art with the unit name under or inside it.

Yes, yes it would be nice to have something like that. To Battle!

[Smotty]

It's not even about winning, it's the amount of matches played. MS has this hands down due to unit size. Ran into them almost every match I played today and evening.

Are they beatable? Yes. Does it matter in regards to the event? No.

Makes me wonder if PGI has plans to nerf max unit size, and if not if they will start to think about it after this event...

Edited by Smotty, 01 July 2015 - 09:09 PM.

[Brut4ce]

Soulstrom, on 01 July 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

Not saying the -MS- isn't beatable (clearly the one pug was thier downfall), but it would be great to see some screen-shots of them losing matches this event; if that is possible.

Well, thats merry....So, when some unit, and i'm not talking about -MS- only, is beginning to stand out from the others in a game, all others start getting excited to see that unit fail, instead of trying to raise to a higher level, or give paraise to the effort. Nice work human kind.....

Flutterguy, on 01 July 2015 - 11:54 AM, said:

I think that's another point that irritates people. MS is so big that they could lose every match and still be ahead in points when all is said and done.

Right.... points are awarded for wins only, not losses.....

[Flutterguy]

Brut4ce, on 01 July 2015 - 11:22 PM, said:

Right.... points are awarded for wins only, not losses.....

You're forgetting the points for getting 80 match points.

[Brut4ce]

Flutterguy, on 01 July 2015 - 11:36 PM, said:

You're forgetting the points for getting 80 match points.

Wow, i just saw that. You are right Flutter. I thought the 80 match points for an event point was only for the personal challenge, like Tukayyid. So in essence if one wins a CW match and get 80 match score, they earn 2 event points(!!???) This is stupid. They should have counted wins only. PGI........Sigh.....

[Smotty]

Brut4ce, on 02 July 2015 - 12:28 AM, said:

Wow, i just saw that. You are right Flutter. I thought the 80 match points for an event point was only for the personal challenge, like Tukayyid. So in essence if one wins a CW match and get 80 match score, they earn 2 event points(!!???) This is stupid. They should have counted wins only. PGI........Sigh.....

That's why the units with the most population will be the highest rank. PGI didn't set up a very good scoring system as it rewards most games played, not actual skill. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying MS and/or the larger units don't have skill (Most due and are a real challenge to fight) I'm just stating how the scoring system works.

[Chafe]

PGI, All you have to do is add "divided by unit size" to the end of the scoring formula and you'd have a much more fun event where the outcome wasn't a given from the outset

[Kin3ticX]

Smotty, on 02 July 2015 - 05:37 AM, said:

That's why the units with the most population will be the highest rank. PGI didn't set up a very good scoring system as it rewards most games played, not actual skill. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying MS and/or the larger units don't have skill (Most due and are a real challenge to fight) I'm just stating how the scoring system works.

Considering World of Tanks used a size limit of 100 for clan wars(granted, they have a smaller map), it's reasonable to limit MWO units to 180(the max size of a regiment from lore). Perhaps 108 later if needed. I am open to PGI trying stuff because clearly that status quo is failing. I am rarely facing 12-mans and tons of players refuse to form units as it is. The main downside would be large units having to clean their rosters of inactives or less-actives and all that entails. Which means PGI probably wouldn't see an immediate jolt from the change but perhaps in the longer term it would work.

There is a desire within Mercstar to do something new but no solid idea on what yet. It still boils down to

A) not having the active numbers to support two teams during non-events.

B ) no time to change course in the middle of an event, given 3 day cooldowns

C) what to do different in season three assuming this is nearly the end of season 2.

For example, if -MS- were to hypothetically split (whether we go Mercstar/Starmerc Clan-IS or MS1, MS2 and still work together), we will struggle to form 12-mans, save for when more players show up for events. Additionally, fighting ourselves goes against a playing to win mentality. However, the larger and more active CW units may ultimately need to do some policing of their own to keep the balance of power from shifting favor so much(similar in fashion to what Comstar does in lore).

Part of what makes Mercstar Mercstar is being able to play CW together almost whenever we want and nobody wants to give that up.

Anyways, we can wait for a PGI solution but we can also act like a community and make adjustments ourselves.

All in all, this event sucks and something needs to be done, I just have no idea what.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 02 July 2015 - 06:30 AM.

[Azzgaroth]

Russ said he want to reduce unit to 50-100 player braket. This event clearly show why. Sorry for you MS!

[Soulstrom]

Brut4ce, on 02 July 2015 - 12:28 AM, said:

Wow, i just saw that. You are right Flutter. I thought the 80 match points for an event point was only for the personal challenge, like Tukayyid. So in essence if one wins a CW match and get 80 match score, they earn 2 event points(!!???) This is stupid. They should have counted wins only. PGI........Sigh.....

If that had been the case, then smaller less experienced units wouldn't stand a chance. At least there is the allusion of competion here.

Edited by Soulstrom, 02 July 2015 - 06:49 AM.

[Alec Braca]

Soulstrom, on 01 July 2015 - 05:42 AM, said:

Actually we are a fluid reinforcement unit that votes on our CW contract with the idea of reinforcing IS House's or Clans in need. We fought for FRR for a long time (before the map reset); so not a new revalaiton but more of it becoming glaringly apparent with this event.

Well what happened? The Jags were down to their starting planet only for a month or so. A few months ago the Clans were getting their collective asses stomped.

Azzgaroth, on 02 July 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

Russ said he want to reduce unit to 50-100 player braket. This event clearly show why. Sorry for you MS!

Yeah he said that but does he really mean it? I want to pay PGI in monopoly money until they deliver, then I will pay them.

[Smotty]

They do need to do something. We shall see what wave 3 brings and hope for some major improvements.

I currently play CW for the longer match times and farming cbills. (and this event to support my unit) It's a nice break from the standard matches.

I really want a reason to play and support CW, as I feel it has a lot of potential, it just needs more depth and variety.

[Black Ivan]

CW defintily needs a big rework to get more people into it. More depth, better rewards and variety, more meaning.
Heck even the old Mercenaries Manual 3055 had options which could be used as well in today MWO.

[STEF_]

Azzgaroth, on 02 July 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

Russ said he want to reduce unit to 50-100 player braket. This event clearly show why. Sorry for you MS!

Again..."Thanks, PGI".

Why don't force smaller units to regroup?

OR, why qquing small units don't regroup by thierselves, trying to organize something bigger?

edit: btw, Mercstar IS a team made by small units, that chose to regroup

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 02 July 2015 - 10:10 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Deimos Alpha, on 01 July 2015 - 07:33 AM, said:

Kind of looks and feels pointless when so many players are focused in big units just rolling over smaller ones.

Cuz this game is so shallow and boring that its only playstyle is exactly that. Ever really wonder why the game has such a bad player retention issue? PGI has even stated they cant add certain features to the Q because of a lack of players, yet they keep the game in the same boring state. Intent instead on releasing new mech packs hoping t he old players will just die from nostalgia unless they get these new mechs, over actually trying to make a game that is worth playing and trying to draw in new players.

I mean, the side who deathballs the hardest wins....this game is basically, deathball, step around t he corner, your mech melts. next guy tries to take a shot, he melts, next guy? he melts....fun fun..

No depth, objectives, tactics, strategy, or anything. Its just deathball around a pair of gates hoping that one side can peekaboom better then the other. Then again, Russ is following WoTs method of game design...and that game is all about deathballing and corner humping.

[BattleHymn]

Brut4ce, on 02 July 2015 - 12:28 AM, said:

Wow, i just saw that. You are right Flutter. I thought the 80 match points for an event point was only for the personal challenge, like Tukayyid. So in essence if one wins a CW match and get 80 match score, they earn 2 event points(!!???) This is stupid. They should have counted wins only. PGI........Sigh.....

If they counted only wins, -MS- would probably still be leading if we were base the estimates on Tukayyid stats released by PGI after that event. -MS- won about 78% of their drops in BoT, while the 6 units that were larger than that won between like 50-55% of theirs. They also racked up more than 30 wins per member, so some may be confusing just sheer size with size in combination with organization and dedication.

Speaking of which, KCom averaged just shy of 60 wins per member and won 92% of their drops, now, that's dedication and organization! That's a case where unit size would have made the difference, if they could have cloned themselves to maintain that same level success, dedication and organization.

This also would have applied to a number of the top comp units which fielded medium sized teams as well. It wouldn't have applied to the more casual units/groups dropping a few times during the event and winning a handful of times.

Something to consider is that with expansion, there often can be a dilution of quality, which is one of the reason why some excellent units stay small or comp-only. It is also a common mistake to assume that this happens with ALL units that have a relatively large membership.

Edited by BattleHymn, 03 July 2015 - 12:05 PM.

[MischiefSC]

The issue isn't unit size. I realize this has been said before, but saying it again.

As noted above KCom, for example, is a big unit. Even if it was 200 members nobody would *****.

Why?

They stay around and stomp face for the same faction.

There are some big units who win, a lot. They have provided a foundation around which their faction rallied and drove big swaths of wins. They just mostly left at Tukayyid.

The issue is transients. People ***** about MS because while I'm glad to hear they are having fun and hopping around and doing their thing that is making CW as a whole less enjoyable for everyone else. It's a big unit *that moves around all the time*.

That's the problem. That situation (not MS specifically but that situation) fundamentally helps destroy any point to 'faction vs faction combat'. Faction membership is completely fluid and irrelevant so what 'faction' wins or loses is irrelevant.

There's no need to break big units up. Big units are not the issue. The issue is transients.

[Wolves of Winter]

And mischief has gotten to the core of the problem. You aren't fighting Falcons or Bears, FedCom or Marik. You are fighting the same pilots with a new coat of paint. And they are planning, looking to game the system and get the best drops. KCOM has essentially taken leadership of the Falcon Touman, crunching numbers on planets and setting rules. Do not aid other clans, hit Steiner till capped, no other options, hit the Bears and Smoke Jags to open corridor to Combine. And the Falcons March along to the tune. What the Jade doesn't realize, is KCom is gaining points for conquest for each world done this way, if 228 doesn't get it first. Only defend Falcon, let's them keep their points. Manipulation of the system. If it's happening here, I can't believe it isn't also happening with MS.

But what is really poisoning this, is the toxic community. Drop comes up, reveals 12 man, 3 pilots start spamming chat with defeat before the first shot fires. Like they don't also have mechs and big ass guns. Just 10 minutes ago, I witnesses one of the most epic comebacks against ASE. A few Wolves, Bears, and Smoke Jags with one Falcon dropped to defend Leoben. Like most against premade, ASE pulled ahead quickly, gaining lead of 15+ mechs. Then suddenly, they all synced up. Coordinated fire, calling targets, supporting one another. They quickly cut through 2 waves of ASE, pulling ahead by 5. Score shifted several times, and in the end a Star of mechs working together, the literal last 5, destroyed the remaining 9 to pull victory as the clock wound down. It was the definition of the word epic. Those pilots should be proud. And i got to see what CW is really about from a bunch of down and out Clan pilots who had been stomped into irrelevance by the big merc groups. Never see anything like that on the Falcon side.

[Nik Reaper]

Hm, the other big thing that could split up the big groups could be rewards, so like this, every factions top few get something, something worth fighting for, but it's not enough to just be the top in that faction, there is a threshold so it's not like "o look those guys have no one , let's do a little get first place there and get the reward", they would need serious work and organisation for that woth some numbers.

Now lets say the reward is a limited skin gained to those who got over a threshold per player so being in a unit only gets you some hanging item or something secundary but the main prise is rarer and more unique and in limited number, lets say top 50~100 in a unit.
This means that there is competition in a unit for those top 50 spots , and if you don't feel confident to take them you might look to go to a different "temp" unit where competitionyou think is less as the units might compete for top dog braging rights and they have that but every faction has a top 50 if /after they reach over the treshold and if the treshold is not low it is enevitable that those ambitious organised units will find one another when fighting other factions thus rising the quality of games as they still would need to win games to get to the treshould even if they aren't going for top dog of them all position.

I can see that this system could be gamed in several ways and would need locking players in units for the duration of the event but this is the only way I can see big units spliting for a time and fighting against each other or at least spliting there focus over a wider theatre of war.