36 replies to this topic

[Zordicron]

So, Clans have their newest mechpack announced, so logically an IS one should follow in a while. I would like to use this time in between to discuss the XTRO: Primitives mechs as potential candidates for a mechpack, and how they would fit into MWO. I mean it fits logically as the clan IIC stuff is basically old mechs the clans updated. So, why not IS "old mechs" to update?


For those that aren't as as familiar with all the battletech TRO's and such, basically they are "nerdy books" stuffed full of diagrams and info on mechs and other badass Battletech equipment. Sort of like a book full of blueprints. Many of the pictures of origin art etc of the mechs we so love come from the TRO's.

the Experimental TRO: Primitives was a 4 volume series, each holding a listing of mechs and other stuff. Mostly they detail mechs from the very, very early timeline of mech warfare. Sarna has some nice pages for these XTRO's. (volume 2 here)

http://www.sarna.net...tives,_Volume_2




Now as to the mechs listed(the relevant part obviously) there are some off the table. There is a quad, there are some we already have, and some unseen. However, there are some really unique looking mechs with solid potential for MWO. Here are the ones that strike me as something new and interesting to add to MWO:

Volume 1:
Mackie- 100 tons. The original. I think Alex might even have a concept drawn of this. I am sure it would see MWO anyway at some point, it is one of those "everybody knows" type of things.
Kyudo- 45 tons. Missile/laser platform. Not as excited about this one as some of the others, BUT it reminds me of a cross between a Clint and a Vindicator. We could also use some more on the light end of the medium class.

Volume 2:
This thing is a treasure trove of kickass mechs.

Icarus II- 40 tons. Energy/ballistic mech with JJ. Really dig the cockpit design, reminds me of a mini Annihilator. Dat AC10 arm...
Gladiator- 55 tons. This one I have been asking for periodically for a while now. IMO, Alex could make this thing the most intimidating badass IS medium we have ever seen. I have not seen anything of any tonnage on Sarna that resembles this mech. Alex, if you read this, remove the right hand plz, IMO it would be even more hardcore then. Energy/missile, JJ. Would be as recognizable on the battlefield as an Atlas IMO in this game.
Crossbow- 60 tons. Energy/missile. Unique look, mostly because of the arms. Amrs listed as "double 5" LRM 10's. Would like to see 2x missile hardpoints per arm. Would make this a nice 60 ton lrm support mech, which we dont have, or a wicked brutal SRM stinkfist brawler. Either way, another 60 ton mech would be nice.
Battleaxe- 70 tons. OK people, this is the original Warhammer. Before the warhammer, was the hammerhands, before that, was the Battleaxe. PPC arms, mixed type backup weapons in torsos. IMO, as close as you will see to a Warhammer, Alex could make it supahawesome, I don;t think PGI can get lawsuits. Variants with JJ also.



Volume 3: Some good ones here too.

Firebee- 35 tons. Mostly missiles(SRM) with laser arm. JJ. Has an ECM variant. The model reminds me of a pissed off Spider lol.
Eisenfaust- 45 tons. Ballistics(AC10) and lasers. Slower medium, brutish looking model. The miniature is FUGLY, but the artwork is amazing.
Dervish- 55 tons. I think this one was actually talked about as being potentially brought into MWO a while back. I am not super excited about it, but as it has already been brought up, I thought I should add it here for discussion.
Bellerophon- 60 tons. Not much info about this mech. Someone submitted a newer art for it, and I really liked the design. lasers and missile, would need more hardpoints. Would also be difficult to replicate the mech's "personality" in MWO. However, as another option at 60 tons with a kickass design, I wanted to include it.


Volume 4: Couple really mean looking models here.

Toro- 35 tons. Laser/missile. Pretty tough looking model for a light, the door covered missile pods on the Sarna image caught my attention as something we don;t have at all for a light in MWO.
Swordsman- 40 tons. Really brutish looking mixed loadout medium. Enough hardpoints you could put whatever you wanted on it as a main weapon to build around. Would be really nice to have something besides Cicada as a bottom weight medium, this mech is versatile and badass looking.
Emperor- 90 tons. Ballistics arms, energy torsos, JJ. I liked the loadout possibility of this mech, and relatively new art posted really set this thing off for me on it's potential in MWO.




Thats what i picked out of the bunch, like I said earlier, there are several off the table designs.

KNOWN ISSUES:

- Variant count:
I don't see this as an issue as much, it would simply require a hero variant and a PGI variant. the mechs have visuals and tonnage spots so appealing I think it is worth the time to create some variants here. I really, really doubt anyone would mind, I mean for many of these it is the only way they would see in game anyway.

- Primitive tech, prototype variants:
IMO, it would be silly to make primitive tech. IMO, the "original" variants would need conversions. I do not think it would be a big deal, especially with the community here providing input on how to make a proper conversion and retain some personality of being "ancient". Between the minds here and the build rules of MWO and even quirks, i doubt this is an actual issue.

- Some variants from Jihad era:
Again, not an issue IMO. while i can understand ruling out variants of mechs we already have because of future tech, these mechs are mostly low on variants and converting some of the future tech to current IMO is an acceptable tradeoff to allow the variant to qualify. it relates to the first point, when you are only given a variant or two, IMO nobody is going to bat an eye at taking some liberties with the existing ones(or creating one) if it means we can put the chassis into MWO.


There are several other "ancient" mechs i would like to see that aren't listed in the XTRO's, like the Hector. I am leaving those to the sideline for now as I felt the theme presented inherently by the XTRO's made for a better presentation for the curious to look up on Sarna. That said, i am leaving the links and pics part of this to you guys so this doesnt turn into more of a mega post then it already is.

I also want to make special note of the artwork posted to Sarna by Justin Nelson. The Emperor in particular really struck me.

So then, discuss!

Edited by Eldagore, 03 July 2015 - 04:15 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Thanks for getting me to look the XTROs up. I MUST get Experimental Technical Readout: Royal Fantasy... Ariel is a beauty!

[Milocinia]

I think some of those mechs would definitely be interesting but in a good way. It would be nice if we could deviate slightly from the norm for once and I think it'll do the game a lot of good.

[Zordicron]

Joseph Mallan, on 02 July 2015 - 02:13 AM, said:

Thanks for getting me to look the XTROs up. I MUST get Experimental Technical Readout: Royal Fantasy... Ariel is a beauty!

HA! Now I had to look that up, "notsureifserious.gif" I lol'd a bit at the "antimech hair whip" one.

Any thoughts on the not so satire mechs?

[MeiSooHaityu]

The Mackie is pretty sweet. It always reminds me of a giant Urbanmech lol.

[Joseph Mallan]

Eldagore, on 02 July 2015 - 03:14 AM, said:

HA! Now I had to look that up, "notsureifserious.gif" I lol'd a bit at the "antimech hair whip" one.

Any thoughts on the not so satire mechs?

I don't have the TRO.

But I did look up the Primitive Wasp!

Pretty!!!!!

Is it me or does the chest look like mandibles?

[Vellron2005]

It would be nice to have some "repurposed mechs" in the game.. but I think PGI needs to focus on maps now, not mechs.

P.S.

That wasp primitive looks AWESOME

Edited by Vellron2005, 02 July 2015 - 04:13 AM.

[El Bandito]

Personally I want the Extinct Mech Pack. Dat Dragoon...

http://mwomercs.com/...ds-great-to-me/

Edited by El Bandito, 02 July 2015 - 04:28 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

El Bandito, on 02 July 2015 - 04:28 AM, said:

Personally I want the Extinct Mech Pack. Dat Dragoon...

http://mwomercs.com/...ds-great-to-me/

But its from the most reviled Amaris!
...
...
...
No.

[Zordicron]

The Wasp is HAWT. But..... it is on the unseen list.

it's funny though, so is the Wolverine and a few others like the battlemaster. I have never actually looked into what exactly PGI can use or not regarding this. I mean did they buy rights from HG for the Battlemaster?

Anyway, it would be pretty sweet to see the Wasp in game. I left it off the XTRO list above because it was on the unseen list. I would add it in a heartbeat if it wasn't lawsuit bait.

[Zordicron]

Thought maybe I would start adding a pic here and there too for eye candy. Here is one of the Crossbow from Volume 2:







It is a newer submission. I really liked it and instantly thought "Dat SRM brawling though"

[Scratx]

Eldagore, on 02 July 2015 - 03:28 PM, said:

The Wasp is HAWT. But..... it is on the unseen list.

it's funny though, so is the Wolverine and a few others like the battlemaster. I have never actually looked into what exactly PGI can use or not regarding this. I mean did they buy rights from HG for the Battlemaster?

Anyway, it would be pretty sweet to see the Wasp in game. I left it off the XTRO list above because it was on the unseen list. I would add it in a heartbeat if it wasn't lawsuit bait.

The difference is that the Battlemaster, Shadowhawk and a few others are NOT owned by Harmony Gold and they were willing to make a deal with PGI.

Harmony Gold owns (or claims to, and nobody really wants to spend a few million dollars in court to settle the issue either way, I imagine) the Macross-based Unseens' visuals... and they so far have not shown to be willing to deal.

That's why we don't see any of them.

Don't hold your breath waiting for them.

[Zordicron]

Did some searches here for that Dervish, I was wrong on that one. There was a lot of hype on the forums a while ago(that's what I was remembering) but I didn't find any concepts for it.

I did find though, what I think is a concept from Alex for a Mackie, but I could not actually confirm. I recall seeing banter about this too but the forums weren't as vocal about the Mackie. Probably because at the time of the Dervish stuff we weren't seeing the mech pcks like we do now. Anyway:

[chewie]

While the XTRO Primitives does have some great looking designs, so do the current available timeline TRO's (3039, 3050, 3052, 3055.

But, and heres a big one, unless you could convince the populace to play based on looks (granted a fair few of us are more than happy to play with a mech not just based on how well it goes pew pew) there would be no requirement to have them.

If it ain't meta, those that don't matter won't want to get it because they won't want it because its not meta (which is their kinda circular logic).


In some regards it would be cool because we could get the poor mans Warhammer, the Battleaxe. Practically the same beast in looks, performance and loadout.

And then there is the other side to the meta or not coin. The "these hardpoints are usless" argument. eg, not high enough, not good enough, all placed in one place so too vulnerable etc etc.

For instance the Ostwar. 20rack in the RT, 2 mediums in the LT (shown at shoulder height in the artwork), 2 4packs one in ea arm. Missile heavy loadout. Meta or not?

For instance the Dervish. two LRM10 in the shoulders, 2 mediums in the arms, 2 srm packs in the arms. We don't need it because we have a Treb that can do practically all that and more. definitely not meta so would be ignored by a lot.


As far as new mechs go, PGI has the difficult job of picking things that they know will get bought and wont get people crying overly much the moment they find they can do a better job in something else they already have.

Just touching on the those that shall not be named "cough(WARHAMMER)cough", with the Project Pheonix designs, we could easily get all those "iconic" mechs in that format (see shadowhawk, thunderbolt, battlemaster and griffin), if they want to do them.


But it was nice having te link rather than going searching for the primitives tro. Cheers.

[Zordicron]

chewie, on 03 July 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

While the XTRO Primitives does have some great looking designs, so do the current available timeline TRO's (3039, 3050, 3052, 3055.

But, and heres a big one, unless you could convince the populace to play based on looks (granted a fair few of us are more than happy to play with a mech not just based on how well it goes pew pew) there would be no requirement to have them.

If it ain't meta, those that don't matter won't want to get it because they won't want it because its not meta (which is their kinda circular logic).


In some regards it would be cool because we could get the poor mans Warhammer, the Battleaxe. Practically the same beast in looks, performance and loadout.

And then there is the other side to the meta or not coin. The "these hardpoints are usless" argument. eg, not high enough, not good enough, all placed in one place so too vulnerable etc etc.

For instance the Ostwar. 20rack in the RT, 2 mediums in the LT (shown at shoulder height in the artwork), 2 4packs one in ea arm. Missile heavy loadout. Meta or not?

For instance the Dervish. two LRM10 in the shoulders, 2 mediums in the arms, 2 srm packs in the arms. We don't need it because we have a Treb that can do practically all that and more. definitely not meta so would be ignored by a lot.


As far as new mechs go, PGI has the difficult job of picking things that they know will get bought and wont get people crying overly much the moment they find they can do a better job in something else they already have.

Just touching on the those that shall not be named "cough(WARHAMMER)cough", with the Project Pheonix designs, we could easily get all those "iconic" mechs in that format (see shadowhawk, thunderbolt, battlemaster and griffin), if they want to do them.


But it was nice having te link rather than going searching for the primitives tro. Cheers.

ehhhh

Besides our clan wave 3 supposed meta mechs, we havent had anything meta sold since clan wave 1. But those packs did just fine. IMO, packs sell based almost 100% on looks and nostalgia. Mechs like the primitives, well, thats what they have in spades.

Even ignoring that, Hardpoint placement on a lot of these would come down to how Alex reimagines them. The Emperor for example, I think it has 5 laser points between the Torsos(maybe head, would have to go look) so, given that at least two have to go into ST, who is to say he won;t put them at armpit height? The thing has JJ, can run dual gauss in arms, could potentially have high mounted ST laser(PPC) points. Enough energy for laser barf loadout... WUBperor?

My point is meta is what players make of things, and we have had plenty of mech packs sell really well without "knowing" if they would be the next big OP meta or not, and the potential of any of the ones I listed is basically only limited by Alex renditions and hitbox stuff.

Besides, pretty sure the cray cray meta tryhards arent populace enough to make or break a mech pack, or sales of clan wave 2 and resistance 1 would have fallen off a cliff immediatly after release and word got around the tryhard circle of elitez that the new mechs werent TBR replacements.

[Lexx]

So you want to bring tech to the game from 3079, when what we should be focusing on is tech from 3055-3058.

Yeah that seems legit.

[Zordicron]

That Wasp image got me thinking about the Firebee more, you know the two mechs aren't that different in design looks wise. I am sure Alex could manage to blend the two enough to stay out of lawsuit trouble while giving us some thing approximate

Here is a Firebee to compare to the Wasp image-

[stjobe]

Eldagore, on 02 July 2015 - 03:28 PM, said:

The Wasp is HAWT. But..... it is on the unseen list.

No, no, no...

THIS is Unseen:



This is not:



Trouble is, HG might sue anyway, and that'd be the end of PGI and MWO even if they (eventually) won.

Edit: I'd pilot the hell out of a Wasp like the lower one, improved by Alex.

Edited by stjobe, 03 July 2015 - 09:46 AM.

[Lexx]

When you say "primitives". it makes me think "dark age". The last thing we need in game is mechs like this,..



I'd rather see mechs like the http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Bushwacker and the http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Bandersnatch before we see something like that in game.

[Zordicron]

Lexx, on 03 July 2015 - 09:20 AM, said:

So you want to bring tech to the game from 3079, when what we should be focusing on is tech from 3055-3058.

Yeah that seems legit.

You have posted twice about stuff from like 25 years in the future, did you even read my OP? I mean, how do you get Dark Age out of Mackies and mechs that went "extinct" during the Reunification War? We are talking mechs designed in the 2400's here.