52 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

I think that the Cauldron Born's hitboxes exist in a sort of limbo between good and bad...sometimes you get your CT crushed without much chance, and other times you can ubertank to less than 30% total health. I consider the hitboxes to be "minimally viable" or adequate.

Not great or good by any stretch, but certainly not bad. Its durability still beats the hell out of mechs like the Vulture and Catapult. It lasts about as long as it needs to in order to get its job done.

I don't really want to buff up the CB's toughness because then PGI might do something stupid like give it agility or laser duration/cooldown quirk nerfs. Even with its durability "weakness" it's still one of the best heavies in the game. There are so many other mechs that need help before the Cauldron Born does.

Gyrok, on 03 July 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

Though, honestly...CSRMs are inferior to IS SRMs across the board...(worse spread, less damage per missile, etc.)

IS SRM Advantages
+0.15 damage per missile
-0.2 spread

Clan SRM Advantages
Half tonnage on all launchers
SRM6 is 1 critslot instead of 2


With all else being equal, I'm gonna choose the half-weight launchers. You can mount an Artemis Clan SRM4 for the same tonnage as a regular non-Artemis SRM4, so that the Clan mech actually has the tighter spread. The Clan Artemis SRM6 is actually 0.5 tons lighter than the regular IS SRM6.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kiiyor, on 03 July 2015 - 08:00 AM, said:

The TW is still the best mech in the game, IMHO, so it doesn't make sense to nerf anything yet without seeing how the Jag truly stacks up against it. For my money, the Jag is close, but not better than the TW, even with it's nerfs.

Nah, the HBR is the king at the range game now, at least for poking. Firing line setups I suppose the TBR still has a decent advantage if you run the 2 LPL - Gauss build, but for the most part people have just switched to HBRs. For brawling however, the TBR is still great unless you ran the SPL-SRM build but I think I like the EBJ with 6 SPL-LBX20 better for that.

[Scout Derek]

OP.........

Just stop it.

WM Quicksilver, on 03 July 2015 - 10:36 AM, said:

Nah, the HBR is the king at the range game now, at least for poking. Firing line setups I suppose the TBR still has a decent advantage if you run the 2 LPL - Gauss build, but for the most part people have just switched to HBRs. For brawling however, the TBR is still great unless you ran the SPL-SRM build but I think I like the EBJ with 6 SPL-LBX20 better for that.

Wrong, we don't know if either one is the king of range. Unless you have same tasty data from pgi with what you said along those lines, I'd agree.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Scout Derek, on 03 July 2015 - 01:10 PM, said:

Wrong, we don't know if either one is the king of range. Unless you have same tasty data from pgi with what you said along those lines, I'd agree.

Or you could just try and do both against good teams and find out that the Timby just can't poke like the Hellbringer can, that is on non Canyon maps. Granted that was before the high mounts of the TBR-A were allowed in tournaments, so....

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 03 July 2015 - 01:14 PM.

[Scout Derek]

WM Quicksilver, on 03 July 2015 - 01:14 PM, said:

Or you could just try and do both against good teams and find out that the Timby just can't poke like the Hellbringer can, that is on non Canyon maps. Granted that was before the high mounts of the TBR-A were allowed in tournaments, so....

Even then, I will disagree until you have data.

On your note about best players, that has no power in our discussion, as each good team May have a different strategy, a different way to poke, a different pattern, even so if it is a very little pattern, one thing we've all learned is that the left turn, that poke you made around a corner to find you got yourself cored or another person, decides a match.

[Leone]

As requested Gyrok
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3bbf702d6709abd

~Leone.

[Monkey Lover]

you cant ct the jag form about any angle. The Timber god is still the best mech in the game.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Scout Derek, on 03 July 2015 - 01:18 PM, said:

Even then, I will disagree until you have data.

On your note about best players, that has no power in our discussion, as each good team May have a different strategy, a different way to poke, a different pattern, even so if it is a very little pattern, one thing we've all learned is that the left turn, that poke you made around a corner to find you got yourself cored or another person, decides a match.

There are two things that matter in poking, minimizing exposure and maximizing firepower. Patterns and strategy are simply a way of optimizing either of these. The Hellbringer has less firepower than the TBR just like the WVR has less than the SCR, but the Hellbringer minimizes its exposure much better than the TBR just like the WVR does over the SCR.

As for data, considering I have no power to get good telemetry and other than the matches I have played in tournaments lately and what I've watched good teams use, you are asking for something I have no other way of knowing. However, it is a double edge sword since you can't prove that I'm wrong the same way I can't prove I am right.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 03 July 2015 - 01:31 PM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Better profile (smaller/shorter), better hardpoints(higher), didn't have to sacrifice anything to do the build.

Ebonjag is still better.

Its just new, after the Cbill release, I expect about a week or less before it gets the same negative quirks to nerf the crap out of it, thats just the routine.

[Scout Derek]

WM Quicksilver, on 03 July 2015 - 01:31 PM, said:

There are two things that matter in poking, minimizing exposure and maximizing firepower. Patterns and strategy are simply a way of optimizing either of these. The Hellbringer has less firepower than the TBR just like the WVR has less than the SCR, but the Hellbringer minimizes its exposure much better than the TBR just like the WVR does over the SCR.

As for data, considering I have no power to get good telemetry and other than the matches I have played in tournaments lately and what I've watched good teams use, you are asking for something I have no other way of knowing. However, it is a double edge sword since you can't prove that I'm wrong the same way I can't prove I am right.

Well, let's just say we have hypothesises that we can't prove, well, not fully. Till then it's a draw.

[bad arcade kitty]

well, cauldron isn't really a zombie mech in this game able to survive and kill even being heavily damaged (we have crow for that here), it goes down pretty easy in a brawl
timber is a much more though cookie

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

6S BoSS, on 03 July 2015 - 07:53 AM, said:

Hi guys, take a look to these "same" mechs:

TBR-C
Penalities:
- Energy weapon cooldown -18%
- Laser duration -18%

EBON JAGUAR EBJ-C
Penalities:
No penalities

The question is: WHY?

Better question is why do you have the gauss in the ST?

Try this build: TBR-C

No ST gauss means no ST blowout which means you have less of a chance to be wicked gimped.

Also, by dropping an E hardpoint you lose a bit of duration length and a get some of your cooldown back.

[MechaBattler]

Stefka Kerensky, on 03 July 2015 - 07:57 AM, said:

Less armor, worse hitboxes, less dhs and so worse cooling?

I don't think all that warrants the untainted firepower of an assault with a higher average range than the IS equivalent.

[cSand]

Well all this hand-wringing is for nothing anyways since they are doing a huge once-over of all the mechs balance this summer

[Aiden Skye]

Timber has mobility torso twist and armor advantage. And has very similar hardpoints as the Jaguar.
Jaguar has burst damage advantage thanks to the TBR quirks.

Why would anyone use the jaguar if there was nothing different in it from a timberwolf? The TBR would be a straight upgrade in every regard.Though I do think the TBR nerfs were over the top.

Edited by W A R K H A N, 03 July 2015 - 04:52 PM.

[Templar Dane]

Mister D, on 03 July 2015 - 01:31 PM, said:

Better profile (smaller/shorter), better hardpoints(higher), didn't have to sacrifice anything to do the build.

Ebonjag is still better.

Its just new, after the Cbill release, I expect about a week or less before it gets the same negative quirks to nerf the crap out of it, thats just the routine.

HBR is the same tonnage. I stopped using the EBJ because the HBR lasts longer. On sure it has a bit less firepower, but in the HBR with some torso twisting most times you'll go through both arms and both STs.

On the EBJ it's 80-90% CT deaths without losing any other components. I could count the number of times I've lost an arm or a ST on one hand.

[Kiiyor]

WM Quicksilver, on 03 July 2015 - 10:36 AM, said:

Nah, the HBR is the king at the range game now, at least for poking. Firing line setups I suppose the TBR still has a decent advantage if you run the 2 LPL - Gauss build, but for the most part people have just switched to HBRs. For brawling however, the TBR is still great unless you ran the SPL-SRM build but I think I like the EBJ with 6 SPL-LBX20 better for that.

Good point.

It's hard to pick a single standout now, as the slight dethroning of the TW means that builds and effectiveness vary between game type. I see a lot of HBR's and Cauldrons in CW, Timbies everywhere in the group queue (splat timbies - man, massed SRM's are nightmarish), and Cauldrons have infested the PUG queues. I like this - as even though the Cauldron is a great weapons platform, it's comparatively squishy and doesn't feel as cheesy as the Timbie.

I still think the TW is versatile as hell, though it doesn't do pure vomit as well as the HBR. I disagree about the wubgun build of the Jag too - I think it's fun, but that CT and the lack of mobility kill it in a true brawl, where the timbie can roll and blam all day. Great ambusher though.

The release of a more viable lighter heavy was always going to sideline it in CW, as Clan dropdecks always involved compromises to get Timbies in there.

Heh, if the next two are viable, and then the Jenner or Hunchie, the Clan CW deck is going to be very, very strong indeed.

[Rhent]

Gas Guzzler, on 03 July 2015 - 08:00 AM, said:

Timber has more armor and JJs (which actually makes a huge difference even if just a little bit). I still like my Timbers, but I think the nerfs could be dialed down a bit.

I wouldn't be surprised if the EBJ got some slight adjustments..

The TBC has 1, count it 1 more DHS and it has 38 more points of armor. The mechs move the same and are not using JJ's.

The actual reason why the adjustments to the EBJ will be coming in 3-4 months from now is that is the time it will take for PGI to soak up the cash on people buying the mech. About a month before the EBJ goes for CBills there will be a big MC half off sale and then immediately after that PGI will apply the proper quirks it should have gotten last month.

[mark v92]

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...264383b512da4a8

VS

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e777bfb5c8cb650

Who wins? you decide

same firepower
same cooling

timber has jj
jag has better hardpoint locations

timber has more armor
jag has less tonnage (CW)

timber has better hitboxes
jag has a smaller profile

timber has negative quirks
jag has ....?

Edited by mark v92, 03 July 2015 - 07:35 PM.

[Macster16]

The EBJ is fine where it is as a med-long range heavy fire-support mech balanced by its fragility and lack to brawl well. It's a bit of a glass-canon and that's fine. I love my EBJs and they're capable of doing nasty things, but they're simply not in the realm of OP that the TBR was. The TBR was easy-mode - I could jump into one, half-ass around and get decent results without barely trying. It's not the same with the EBJ where its fragility means you have to be smart with positioning and when to engage as it doesn't take much for it to get trashed. It also can't "yolo-solo" like the TBR can - if you're caught on your own with the EBJ, you're essentially ****ed unlike the TBR which can handle solo situations much better.

I can't say what PGI will do when it's out for cbills, but the EBJ is more or less fine balance wise with where it is at the moment IMO. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say that the HBR is better than it as well (ECM and more tanky).