117 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

In BattleTech Lore as well as the TT Rules,
Any OmniMech should be able to Mount JumpJets,

(BattleTech 35000 - Master Rules)
"Jump Jets
Players may add jump jets to any OmniMech, whether or not
its standard configuration has jump jets. Jump jets may only be
mounted in pods on the left and right legs, the left and right torsos,
and the center torso, and these locations must have sufficient
critical slots open. Use the Determine Jump Capability
rules,"

Why? Because Many People who Play MWO love the BattleTech Universe,
And Many would like to have MWO to stay True to some Lore & the TT Rules,
We Understand that as MWO isnt TT and that curtain Rules have to Change,
For Both Balance of the Game and for the Fun of those Playing it,


=JumpJet OmniMech Upgrade Idea=
this Idea is to add a JumpJet Upgrade for all OmniMechs,
For this Balancing this OmniMech Upgrade lets First Set Some Rules,
1) an OmniMechs JumpJets Each Weight a Set Amount(Tonnage-Based),
2) a OmniMech with this Upgrade Must take the Max Allowed JJ(Speed-Based),
3) These JumpJets Will be Fixed into Certain Locations on the OmniMech(CT/ST/Legs),
4) Modifying an OmniMech to Receive this Upgrade Will Limit its Mobility(Negative Quirks),
5) Modifying an OmniMech to Remove this Upgrade Will Enhance its Mobility(Positive Quirks),

=Rule1=OmniMech JumpJets Weight=
Tonnage Range,.........JumpJet Weight...
20-50,..........................0.5Tons Per JJ....
55-85,...........................1Tons Per JJ......
90-100,.........................2Tons Per JJ......
(JJ Weight Based on TT Master Rules),

=Rule2=OmniMech Max JumpJets=
Speed,.......Walking-Speed,.......Max-JJ,...
97kph,...............6Hexs,................6JJ,......
81kph,...............5Hexs,................5JJ,......
64kph,...............4Hexs,................4JJ,......
48kph,...............3Hexs,................3JJ,......
(JJ Max Based on TT Hexs),

=Rule3=OmniMech Fixed JumpJet Locations=
OmniMech,..........Fixed Locations,.........Gain/Loss,...
MistLynx,.................(3LT)(3RT),..............+3Tons.......
ArcticCheetah,...(2LL)(2CT)(2RL),..........+3Tons.......
KitFox,............(2LL)(1LT)(1RT)(2RL),.....-3Tons........
Adder,.....................(3LT)(3RT),..............-3Tons........
IceFerret,................(3LT)(3RT),..............-3Tons........
ShadowCat,....(2LL)(1LT)(1RT)(2RL),.....+3Tons.......
Nova,..................(2LL)(1CT)(2RL),........+2.5Tons......
StormCrow,..............(3LT)(3RT),.............-6Tons.........
MadDog,.............(2LL)(1CT)(2RL),.........-5Tons.........
EbonJaguar,............(2LT)(3RT),.............-5Tons.........
HellBringer,..........(2LL)(1CT)(2RL),........-5Tons.........
Summoner,..........(2LL)(1CT)(2RL),........+5Tons.........
TimberWolf,..........(2LT)(1CT)(2RT),.......-5Tons.........
Gargoyle,.............(2LL)(1CT)(2RL),........-5Tons.........
WarHawk,......................(4RT),................-4Tons..........
Executioner,..............(2LL)(2RL),............+8Tons.........
DireWolf,...............(1LT)(1CT)(1RT),......-6Tons..........
(Locations Based on where they would be in TT)

=Rule4=OmniMech Receiving this Upgrade=
OmniMechs that dont come with JumpJets Standard & choose to Upgrade,
will Gain -10Torso-Twist-Angle Quirk, as well as a -10%Mech-Speed Quirk,
(S-Variants arnt considered JumpJet Mechs(these Penalties would Apply to them)

=Rule5=OmniMech Removing this Upgrade=
OmniMechs that come with JumpJets Standard & choose to Downgrade,
will Gain +10Torso-Twist-Angle Quirk, as well as a +10%Mech-Speed Quirk,
(S-Variants arnt considered JumpJet Mechs(these Bonuses wouldnt Apply to them)


=Why do i Think OmniMechs need This?=
I can understand That Right now Clan is the only Side that has OmniMechs,
I also Know that with the IIC Mechs Coming that an IS OmniMech Pack is Likely in the Future,
so if we Disregard Tech, in the Current MWO System OmniMechs are Inferior to BattleMechs,
as BattleMechs have many More Advantages Over OmniMechs,
-
BattleMechs=
1) Can Upgrade Endo/Ferro,
2) No Locked Equipment/Fixed Slots,
3) Can Change Engine Size Type,
4) Hardpoint Inflation,
-
OmniMechs
1) Changeable HardPoints,
-
yes OmniMechs Can Change Hardpoints,
but even that is off set by a BattleMech HardPoint Inflation,
so if both sides have BattleMechs Why Take OmniMechs?


i think This should be a Choice for OmniMechs,
First, to Pay Homage to MWOs, BattleTech Roots,
as well as Give OmniMechs an Edge Over BattleMechs,
Also with this Break Down i Feel it could be Balanced,

Please Remember this is an All or Nothing OmniMech Upgrade,
Upgrading JJ on an OmniMech they would automatically be put on into locations and Locked,
OmniMechs are Forced to take the Max Allowed JumpJets, limiting some Tonnage and Space,

Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks


Edit- Link,
Edit2- AMS Change,
Edit3- Full Topic Rework
Edit4- Slight Quirk Tweaking
Edit5- Topic Title reworked,
Edit6- JJ Weight Added,
Edit7- Rule 4-5 Changed,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 31 March 2016 - 07:31 PM.

[Roadkill]

Sure, I'd support that, but only if JJ are unlocked across all Clan chassis. You should be able to remove them from the Summoner, for example.

I would only keep them locked in certain circumstances, such as the S-type omnipods which are examples of exactly the kinds of pods that the above TT rule is talking about (a jumpjet-equipped omnipod that you'd add to an omnimech to give it jump capability).

[Ace Selin]

No allowing all Clan mechs to jump would break the game. This is a PC game not the TT game so it tries to have the essence of battletech but tries to balance all mechs equally (IS & Clan)..

[Andi Nagasia]

Ace Selin, on 04 July 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

No allowing all Clan mechs to jump would break the game. This is a PC game not the TT game so it tries to have the essence of battletech but tries to balance all mechs equally (IS & Clan)..

If that is True then Why is it when Suggesting to to Mend some of the OmniMech Rules,
Many Cry Foul as it goes against the TT Rules of which MWO is Based,

I just want to Understand what type of game this is, are we folling TT? or Ignoring TT Rules?
Ether we should be allowed to Unlock JJ on the MLX, Nova, Summoner, Executioner, against the TT Rules,
or be allowed to Equip them to All OmniMechs as Per those Same TT Rules,
Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 04 July 2015 - 12:27 PM.

[Deimir]

Andi Nagasia, on 04 July 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:

If that is True then Why is it when Suggesting to to Mend some of the OmniMech Rules,
Many Cry Foul as it goes against the TT Rules of which MWO is Based,

I just want to Understand what type of game this is, are we folling TT? or Ignoring TT Rules?
Ether we should be allowed to Unlock JJ on the MLX, Nova, Summoner, Executioner, against the TT Rules,
or be allowed to Equip them to All OmniMechs as Per those Same TT Rules,
Edit-

The thing is, there are supporters on both sides of the issue. Some are more interested in Tabletop fidelity even if it means sacrificing balance, while others are willing to throw Tabletop out in exchange for a more balanced video game experience.

[Hit the Deck]

If we allowed this, then at least it should be all or nothing (people said MW4 does this but I've forgotten about it) to prevent people putting a single JJ on all of their Clan 'Mechs.

[Andi Nagasia]

Hit the Deck, on 04 July 2015 - 12:48 PM, said:

If we allowed this, then at least it should be all or nothing (people said MW4 does this but I've forgotten about it) to prevent people putting a single JJ on all of their Clan 'Mechs.

Remember you are losing LT/CT/RT weapons to get JJ in this Case,
and because of that it does balance it self out pretty well,
Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 04 July 2015 - 12:54 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

Andi Nagasia, on 04 July 2015 - 12:53 PM, said:

Remember you are losing LT/CT/RT weapons to get JJ in this Case,
and because of that it does balance it self out pretty well,
Edit-

Sorry I missed your "JJs in weapon hardpoints for non JJ 'Mechs" idea. If this is the case then unfortunately I can't say anything right now.

[DAYLEET]

Andi Nagasia, on 04 July 2015 - 11:44 AM, said:

Many people here on the Forums are all about Lore and the TT Rules,

What do you mean many? Do you even need 2 hands to count them?

[TheCharlatan]

OMG.
A flying Stormcrow.
We would need a nerfbat so big it could knock the moon out of orbit.

[Andi Nagasia]

Hit the Deck, on 04 July 2015 - 01:01 PM, said:

Sorry I missed your "JJs in weapon hardpoints for non JJ 'Mechs" idea. If this is the case then unfortunately I can't say anything right now.

it was to Help balance things, as the SCR would then only have 3JJ,
do you think i should move to True TT JJ Rules?

DAYLEET, on 04 July 2015 - 01:17 PM, said:

What do you mean many? Do you even need 2 hands to count them?

Um well,.. um,.....some peoples,.... Ok shut up DayLeet, besting me with your Logic,

TheCharlatan, on 04 July 2015 - 01:50 PM, said:

OMG.
A flying Stormcrow.
We would need a nerfbat so big it could knock the moon out of orbit.

it would only have 3 JJ, if we go True to the Rules then it could have 6,

Edit- Topic rewritten so some Comments no longer Valid,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 31 August 2015 - 03:37 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

would this be a balanced way to give OmniMechs something they have in TT,
with out it becoming OverPowered?(you have to trade weapons for JJ)?

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Well, as another Upgrade option, available to both normal and Omni Mechs, I'd be on board.

That way just as Ferro and Endo are either/or choices, so too could Jump Jets on mechs that currently do not have them stock.

[El Bandito]

Andi Nagasia, on 04 July 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:

I just want to Understand what type of game this is, are we folling TT? or Ignoring TT Rules?
Ether we should be allowed to Unlock JJ on the MLX, Nova, Summoner, Executioner, against the TT Rules,
or be allowed to Equip them to All OmniMechs as Per those Same TT Rules,

PGI ignores some, follows some.

Mostly because it is not a TT game.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Andi Nagasia, on 04 July 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:

If that is True then Why is it when Suggesting to to Mend some of the OmniMech Rules,
Many Cry Foul as it goes against the TT Rules of which MWO is Based,

I just want to Understand what type of game this is, are we folling TT? or Ignoring TT Rules?
Ether we should be allowed to Unlock JJ on the MLX, Nova, Summoner, Executioner, against the TT Rules,
or be allowed to Equip them to All OmniMechs as Per those Same TT Rules,
Edit-

The restriction is a way for them to balance 'Mechs and give them all some semblance of relevance. If jump jets were available to all Omni's like in TT then the Stormcrow becomes the only Clan medium out there. It also opens to flood gates to questions like "Why do Omni's have hardpoints or weapon limits at all?" and "Why can only some configurations of some Omni's mount ECM in a specific location?"
These things are done in the name of variety and fun. Oh, and the fact that not every TT rule (or art) translates into a first person game well.

Edited by Nathan Foxbane, 12 August 2015 - 08:28 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Praetor Knight, on 12 August 2015 - 08:21 PM, said:

Well, as another Upgrade option, available to both normal and Omni Mechs, I'd be on board.

That way just as Ferro and Endo are either/or choices, so too could Jump Jets on mechs that currently do not have them stock.

this wouldnt really be an Upgrade like Ferro/Endo,
more of an Option to use other HardPoints as JJ Hardpoints,
the Trade is Weapons for Jumping Capacity,

El Bandito, on 12 August 2015 - 08:27 PM, said:

PGI ignores some, follows some.

Mostly because it is not a TT game.

Very True, Very True,... HardPoint Inflation,

Nathan Foxbane, on 12 August 2015 - 08:27 PM, said:

The restriction is a way for them to balance 'Mechs and give them all some semblance of relevance. If jump jets were available to all Omni's like in TT then the Stormcrow becomes the only Clan medium out there. It also opens to flood gates to questions like "Why do Omni's have hardpoints or weapon limits at all?" and "Why can only some configurations of some Omni's mount ECM in a specific location?"
These things are done in the name of variety and fun. Oh, and the fact that not every TT rule (or art) translates into a first person game well.

i dont Agree as ive Currently Layed out how this would work the SCR would only be able to Mount 3JJ,
so not enough to gain a large mobility Boost, just enough to give a slightly different play style,

I can understand that but With the Current System OmniMechs are Inferior to BattleMechs,
if we disregard Tech, BattleMechs have many More Advantages than OmniMechs,
-
BattleMechs=
1) Can Upgrade Endo/Ferro
2) no Locked Equipment/Fixed Slots,
3) Can Change Engine Size Type,
4) Hardpoint Inflation,
-
OmniMechs
1) Changeable HardPoints,
-
and even then the Changable Hardpoints are off set by BattleMech HardPoint Inflation,
I fear that when Clan BattleMechs Come out OmniMechs will Disappear from BattleFields,
this i feel would/Could give OmniMechs abit of an Edge in that Case another Option,

[Tesunie]

Andi Nagasia, on 12 August 2015 - 08:43 PM, said:

Very True, Very True,... HardPoint Inflation,

Technically speaking... by TT rules there are no such things as "Hardpoints". An Omni-mech could quickly and cheaply change it's free pod space to anything it felt like, within it's allotted space, but not all their gear or they would become a Standard Mech. A Standard Mech on the other hand could change out every piece of gear in it without restriction, but would be expensive to alter, take months (if not years) to change, and once changed would be difficult to maintain.

The balance in lore (and in TT with continuity being considered) was cost. Omni-mechs where more expensive to create, but cheaper to maintain, alter and faster to fix. A Standard mech was cheaper to make, but was harder to maintain, alter or fix if the parts were not available. (AKA: An Omni-mech could toss any omni-weapon on to replace damaged components. A Standard mech had to match like weapons with like, or simply go without if it was damaged and no replacements were on hand.)

Without any persistence in the game, nor economy (nor R&R), we have to then break away from TT rules and create what works best for a first person shooter styled game. Without that, Hardpoints had to be created, and more restrictions had to be placed (on IS and Clan customization).



Personally, I would be against this concept. However, I do see the point and respect that balance was at least considered in the cost of taking JJs on any clan mechs. However, do recall that some clan mechs have no torso mounts at all.

Personally, if every clan mech was to "gain" jump, I'd rather see a specific omni-pod for each mech be released with JJs and Hardpoints to balance it out a bit. Either that, or a "Jump Jets enabled" option that would place X amount of locked JJs onto the mech. (This way, it's either you take X, or you take none. This is to keep people from just taking a single JJ.)

[SgtMagor]

jump jet option for all Clan Omni mechs might be something that needs to be looked into, when IIC Variants show up?

[Aggravated Assault Mech]

I'd support this if they unlocked ECM for every IS chassis.

Clan mechs honestly don't need any help.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Andi Nagasia, on 12 August 2015 - 08:43 PM, said:

i dont Agree as ive Currently Layed out how this would work the SCR would only be able to Mount 3JJ,
so not enough to gain a large mobility Boost, just enough to give a slightly different play style,

I can understand that but With the Current System OmniMechs are Inferior to BattleMechs,
if we disregard Tech, BattleMechs have many More Advantages than OmniMechs,
-
BattleMechs=
1) Can Upgrade Endo/Ferro
2) no Locked Equipment/Fixed Slots,
3) Can Change Engine Size Type,
4) Hardpoint Inflation,
-
OmniMechs
1) Changeable HardPoints,
-
and even then the Changable Hardpoints are off set by BattleMech HardPoint Inflation,
I fear that when Clan BattleMechs Come out OmniMechs will Disappear from BattleFields,
this i feel would/Could give OmniMechs abit of an Edge in that Case another Option,

Battlemechs have always held the distinction of being superior to Omni's when not run stock. The disparity in tech differences between the IS and Clans were so great in TT it was less noticeable until IS Omni's like the Owens were introduced. Given the choice between building a new 'Mech or reconfiguring an Omni most players would build for meta. Omni's are great in a campaign setting where everyone plays stock because stock for Omni's is just what is fixed.

We are playing a game which does not use campaign rules and permits nearly full customization. No having to spend C-bills on R&R, no needing to use only what you can capture or salvage, no waiting for customizations, or anything similar. Omni adaptability goes out the window for map selection because they cannot know the map beforehand and adjust their builds accordingly. Of course it is obvious Battlemechs are better as one match 'Mechs.