117 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

I am opposed to the concept of being able to just slap in JJs onto any Clan Omni, as much as I'm opposed to being able to just remove them from any Clan Omni.

However, I think the way I could accept it is if PGI made custom builds of every mech so that there is one with and one without JJs. They would have to be locked like how it currently is for those mechs (such as the Timberwolf S) to make it able to assign quirks appropriately (probably negative quirks, but we'd have to see). This would let PGI balance non-jump mechs now having jump more appropriately, and jumping mechs to not have jump anymore.

Although I think even that would ruin the flavor of the mechs, and start to phase out some mechs even more (poor Nova would then have literally nothing over a Stormcrow for example). It would also be wise to do this with all IS mechs by making a single JJ variant, but that wouldn't balance nearly as well as it does with clans due to lack of omni-pod switching.

I see the merit of the concept. But I don't think it would do the game any favors. It would weaken the flavor between mechs, and disrupt the balance of the game in unexpected ways.

[Hornviech]

Quote

I'd support this if they unlocked ECM for every IS chassis.

Clan mechs honestly don't need any help.

The Difference is, that according to the omnipod rule you can put everything in there as you wish.
That doesn't Count for Battlemech Chassis, only for Omnimechs.
Also there are no fixed Hardpoints in Omnipods!
There is fixed Equiptment in omnimech but not in the pods.

But PGI doesn't mind the old rules.

[Steve Pryde]

What I would change for all jump jet capable mechs is if you want to equip jjs you must fit all of them or nothing and that rule would count for all mechs, not only omnimechs.

[Tesunie]

Hornviech, on 27 June 2016 - 02:16 AM, said:

The Difference is, that according to the omnipod rule you can put everything in there as you wish.
That doesn't Count for Battlemech Chassis, only for Omnimechs.
Also there are no fixed Hardpoints in Omnipods!
There is fixed Equiptment in omnimech but not in the pods.

But PGI doesn't mind the old rules.

Same would go for standard Battlemechs too... No hard points by original rules. You could add in anything. Only real differences between omni and standard (besides locked equipment) was the amount of effort and time that was needed to effect the changes. An Omni mech could be altered within hours. A Standard mech could be months (if not years) and can require special facilities to effect the changes.

You so sure you wish to argue the point along that line of thought?

[kapusta11]

JJs are shіt on all but lights and mediums anyways. I can live with jumping Stormcrow, it's not like it will roll damage any better with JJs than it already does by just torso twisting.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

I am all for this, yeah sure some will start putting JJ's on mechs and getting nasty builds into nasty locations, but, whatever, they sac cooling or weaponry to get there which is good, balance it out, or shave armor, making their delicious internal structure easier to eat. I also say this due to I have been looking at up coming IS Omnimechs (none are announced but we are getting to that point in the timeline) namely the Owens, the Owens as it is would be almost un-useable in MWO, it has an XL280 in a Jenner chassie with omnipods, no endo, no ferro, and locked to only single heatsinks. So changing that would break from lore and tabletop but it would make the poor Owens actually useable if at very least it got double heat sinks and maybe ferro or endo (without either it still works, but, would have a lot of crit slots and not much pod space or cooling capacity).

So on one hand, I am all for making all omnimechs being able to take off and put on jump jets because it is great for some of the under performing mechs like the Nova and Summoner, we all know that fixed equipment on Omni's makes some really really good due to they have very little of it, and then we have other Omni's with a lot of fixed equipment that make them have all the hard points but no space or tonnage to take advantage of it. Would it be OP to allow every Omni to take endo or ferro or take either or both off? Could be, but, it opens up ability to make more builds viable or even possible. Yeah there will be people abusing it and we will see new metamech builds, but, variety is what I want and with the possible addition of power draw I would _quite_ enjoy that with more options and that is what allowing Omnimechs to have or remove jump jets boils down to, more options to make tactically flexible mechs.

[Andi Nagasia]

Steve Pryde, on 27 June 2016 - 03:12 AM, said:

What I would change for all jump jet capable mechs is if you want to equip jjs you must fit all of them or nothing and that rule would count for all mechs, not only omnimechs.

the though i feel Every BattleMech should have a JJ Variant,
but this Change would only be for OmniMech, as well as Change how OmniMech S Variants work,
As All OmniMechs would be Forced to Take All JJ or none, so no more Pod Mounted JJs,
i think it would be a Fun Addition giving some Choice in usual Locked OmniMechs,

[Andi Nagasia]

Also for all those who Bring up the SCR,

SCR Problem- but its Fast(97Kph) has like 23Tons so it would Jump and still have 20Tons,
yes but the HuntsMan will Jump and has 24Tons Free, and the Viper can Jump and go 129Kph with 10Energy,
Edit- Spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 27 June 2016 - 05:28 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

better idea, lets just fix jumpjets...

[Andi Nagasia]

MauttyKoray, on 27 June 2016 - 06:11 PM, said:

better idea, lets just fix jumpjets...

not really the Discussion at hand,
but more about giving Omnimechs something they had in TT, something to balance them vs BattleMechs,
no one here can say with a Strait face that an OmniMech is better than a BattleMech, hence the Main Problem,
If all the Mechs in MWO were BattleMechs all that would change would be but some UnderPreffomers getting better,
but if all BattleMechs in MWO where Omnimechs, Forced to take Stock Engines and UpGrades, Forums would Melt,

[Roadkill]

Andi Nagasia, on 28 June 2016 - 08:20 AM, said:

not really the Discussion at hand,
but more about giving Omnimechs something they had in TT, something to balance them vs BattleMechs,
no one here can say with a Strait face that an OmniMech is better than a BattleMech, hence the Main Problem,

Yeah, that's because MWO (and previous MechWarrior titles) have been really lax about allowing modifications to BattleMechs. That's effectively not allowed in TT (it takes months if not years to make the kinds of mods to BattleMechs that we're making) but is such a fun game feature that it has always been included in MechWarrior computer games.

What MWO should do to make OmniMech different is allow them to be changed from the drop screen. Allow all Mechs to be fully customized the way that BattleMechs can currently be customized, but give OmniMechs the additional ability to swap OmniPods from the drop screen once the map/mode is known.

That would reflect their TT ability to be cusomized quickly after/before each battle while still allowing for the popular (but totaly non-canon) ability to customize all Mechs.

[Tesunie]

Andi Nagasia, on 28 June 2016 - 08:20 AM, said:

not really the Discussion at hand,
but more about giving Omnimechs something they had in TT, something to balance them vs BattleMechs,
no one here can say with a Strait face that an OmniMech is better than a BattleMech, hence the Main Problem,
If all the Mechs in MWO were BattleMechs all that would change would be but some UnderPreffomers getting better,
but if all BattleMechs in MWO where Omnimechs, Forced to take Stock Engines and UpGrades, Forums would Melt,

Really? I'd beg to disagree about the "Omni-mech is (not) better than a Battlemech". They aren't better (they shouldn't be in a game where each side has the same number of mechs per team), they are equally powerful, but different. The ability to shift hardpoints around by the Omni-pod system grants a lot of flexibility to those mechs. It can let you create a (for example) a pure LRM Summoner with max quirks to reduce missile spread (side torso of the Prime). Or to remove the Ballistics arm on the Prime with an energy arm, making it so it can now laser spam a bit (4 energy hardpoints instead of 2). Or, you can replace an arm on the D with the C to get three ballistic weapon slots, all benefiting from the reduced jam chance of the C arm now. Or...

The point is, Omnis are flexible in this game by having hardpoint customization, but can't customize other aspects. Where as Battlemechs have more open customization of components, but can never alter it's hardpoints. This leads to a form of balance.


Technically, if you want to go into the rules of customization, than Battlemechs WERE superior to Omnis in the amount of customization that could be done. Every aspect of a Battlemech could be customized, given time and resources. An Omni-mech could do so faster and cheaper but didn't have as much free customization room.

Some even argue that an Omni-mech could only change it's variants, not individual components quickly. This would actually hinder Omni-mechs even more if it is the case. Omni-mechs that decided to change a hardwired component would become a normal Battlemch, and/or if the first half of this statement is true and you try to change the configuration to something other than a listed configuration.

[Andi Nagasia]

Tesunie, on 28 June 2016 - 09:04 AM, said:

Really? I'd beg to disagree about the "Omni-mech is (not) better than a Battlemech". They aren't better (they shouldn't be in a game where each side has the same number of mechs per team), they are equally powerful, but different. The ability to shift hardpoints around by the Omni-pod system grants a lot of flexibility to those mechs. It can let you create a (for example) a pure LRM Summoner with max quirks to reduce missile spread (side torso of the Prime). Or to remove the Ballistics arm on the Prime with an energy arm, making it so it can now laser spam a bit (4 energy hardpoints instead of 2). Or, you can replace an arm on the D with the C to get three ballistic weapon slots, all benefiting from the reduced jam chance of the C arm now. Or...

The point is, Omnis are flexible in this game by having hardpoint customization, but can't customize other aspects. Where as Battlemechs have more open customization of components, but can never alter it's hardpoints. This leads to a form of balance.


Technically, if you want to go into the rules of customization, than Battlemechs WERE superior to Omnis in the amount of customization that could be done. Every aspect of a Battlemech could be customized, given time and resources. An Omni-mech could do so faster and cheaper but didn't have as much free customization room.

Some even argue that an Omni-mech could only change it's variants, not individual components quickly. This would actually hinder Omni-mechs even more if it is the case. Omni-mechs that decided to change a hardwired component would become a normal Battlemch, and/or if the first half of this statement is true and you try to change the configuration to something other than a listed configuration.

I dont mean to Seem that OmniMechs need to Be Better(Making BattleMechs Obsolete)
but they do need to Be Balanced, Right now All BattleMechs can be Optimized in their use,
where as OmniMechs cant be and thats a problem their needs to be a Benefit to OmniMechs,


All BattleMechs can Upgrade Endo and Ferro, allowing Each to Optimize Available Tonnage and Crits,
All BattleMechs can Change their Engine, Again allowing to Optimize Available Tonnage to Speed,
All BattleMechs(To my Knowledge) have HardPoint inflation adding 2-4 HardPoints,
Also No BattleMech has Locked Equipment to Hold it back Tonnage wise,

All OmniMechs have Locked Endo and Ferro, you Ether Have it (SCR/TBR) or you Dont(NVA/SMN/GAR)
All OmniMechs have Locked Engine, Again you Ether Have it Right(SCR/TBR) or you Dont(IFR/GAR/DWF)
All OmniMechs Can Change there HardPoints, Again Have it Right(SCR/TBR) or you Dont(ADR/SHC/GAR)
Most OmniMechs have Locked Equipment, Again Have it Right(SCR/TBR) or you Dont(MLX/SHC/NVA/WHK)


In this Every BattleMech Can be Optimized(Endo Mandatory)(Ferro Optional)(Engine Size),
where OmniMechs are Very, Have or Have Not, you ether Do(TBR) or you Dont(SMN),
(also im not Comparing IS-vs-Clan, this Topic is Purely BattleMech-vs-OmniMech)


Here ill give 2 Examples,
-
1) a TBR wont lose Much going from OmniMech to Battle Mech,
Lets assume TBR-Prime(5E & 2M & 1B)+(1E & 1B)Hardpoint inflation, so (6E 2M 2B),
with that Most Builds with the TBR you can do as an OmniMech can be Dont as a BattleMech,
-
2) a NVA will Gain so Much more becoming a BattleMech,
Lets assume a NVA-Prime(12E)+(0)no HardPoint Inflation as 12 is more than Enough,
Add Endo Remove 4Locked DHS and you now have 22 FreeTons, Gauss/AC20/2UAC5 builds are now Possible,
Edit- Spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 28 June 2016 - 12:34 PM.

[Tesunie]

Andi Nagasia, on 28 June 2016 - 12:32 PM, said:

I dont mean to Seem that OmniMechs need to Be Better(Making BattleMechs Obsolete)
but they do need to Be Balanced, Right now All BattleMechs can be Optimized in their use,
where as OmniMechs cant be and thats a problem their needs to be a Benefit to OmniMechs,


All BattleMechs can Upgrade Endo and Ferro, allowing Each to Optimize Available Tonnage and Crits,
All BattleMechs can Change their Engine, Again allowing to Optimize Available Tonnage to Speed,
All BattleMechs(To my Knowledge) have HardPoint inflation adding 2-4 HardPoints,
Also No BattleMech has Locked Equipment to Hold it back Tonnage wise,

All OmniMechs have Locked Endo and Ferro, you Ether Have it (SCR/TBR) or you Dont(NVA/SMN/GAR)
All OmniMechs have Locked Engine, Again you Ether Have it Right(SCR/TBR) or you Dont(IFR/GAR/DWF)
All OmniMechs Can Change there HardPoints, Again Have it Right(SCR/TBR) or you Dont(ADR/SHC/GAR)
Most OmniMechs have Locked Equipment, Again Have it Right(SCR/TBR) or you Dont(MLX/SHC/NVA/WHK)


In this Every BattleMech Can be Optimized(Endo Mandatory)(Ferro Optional)(Engine Size),
where OmniMechs are Very, Have or Have Not, you ether Do(TBR) or you Dont(SMN),
(also im not Comparing IS-vs-Clan, this Topic is Purely BattleMech-vs-OmniMech)


Here ill give 2 Examples,
-
1) a TBR wont lose Much going from OmniMech to Battle Mech,
Lets assume TBR-Prime(5E & 2M & 1B)+(1E & 1B)Hardpoint inflation, so (6E 2M 2B),
with that Most Builds with the TBR you can do as an OmniMech can be Dont as a BattleMech,
-
2) a NVA will Gain so Much more becoming a BattleMech,
Lets assume a NVA-Prime(12E)+(0)no HardPoint Inflation as 12 is more than Enough,
Add Endo Remove 4Locked DHS and you now have 22 FreeTons, Gauss/AC20/2UAC5 builds are now Possible,
Edit- Spelling

1. It's called balance. Each mech type has it's own unique way of being customized. Sometimes it's helpful to the mech, other times it isn't. (Wolverine (L) version anyone?) Even standard battlemechs have their "poor version", due to hardpoints instead of locked equipment.

2. The Nova Prime, I might mention, has 12 energy hardpoints. How would you fit a Gauss/AC20/UAC5 into that? Without it being an Omni, it can't change it's hardpoints. Many Omni builds in MW:O people create use hardpoint/omni-pod swapping. My own Nova replaced an arm with a Prime for some lasers, and a torso for some more missile hardpoints. Without the Omni characteristic, I would have been left (even with hard point inflation) with only ballistics and missile hardpoints. I've gotten Ballistics and Missiles to work together, but it isn't exactly an easy thing to do...

3. By your own definition, then I should be able to equip anything I want to an IS chassis. We want to follow TT rules more closely? Then we can't just pick and choose were to follow closely because "TT", and were we deviate because "balance". Hardpoints were added to Battlemechs. Locked equipment to Omnis (which I might note that some mechs lost some of their locked equipment, such as the Adder's flamer). This was to enhance game play.

4. I feel that the customization balance between Omni and Standard mechs are actually at a fairly level place right now. Before hand Clan mechs had all the advantages. Now they feel a lot more even with IS mechs. Letting all Clan mechs gain jump and not IS mechs in return I feel would only disrupt that balance. Even then, if all mechs could gain jump, I think it would not be good for game play. (Opinion.)



Want my personal opinion? I think Mechlab is bad for the game. Don't get me wrong, Mechlab basically makes the game as well, but it's also caused so much trouble as well. I play a lot of stock mech matches (public sometimes, but mostly private stock mech only matches). I'll comment that stock mechs on stock mechs seems to actually preform rather well. I also feel it would be easier to balance chassis against each other if they couldn't be altered...

But, I at the same time do like customizing my mechs. Who doesn't? So, I'm not saying I want Mechlab removed. More so just pointing out the flaws it can present... (my point being between customization and game play balance.)

[Quaamik]

If jump jets were managed correctly, taking fewer than max would not be an issue.

Manage their usefulness on an exponential curve. Max jump jets should give the maximum Jim distance (height and time aloft). 1 jump jet should provide barely enough lift to increase your mobility by 1 arch type (an assault could climb a hill as a heavy).

Work them like that and it wouldn't matter if someone took only a few.

[Andi Nagasia]

Tesunie, on 28 June 2016 - 02:43 PM, said:

1. It's called balance. Each mech type has it's own unique way of being customized. Sometimes it's helpful to the mech, other times it isn't. (Wolverine (L) version anyone?) Even standard battlemechs have their "poor version", due to hardpoints instead of locked equipment.

2. The Nova Prime, I might mention, has 12 energy hardpoints. How would you fit a Gauss/AC20/UAC5 into that? Without it being an Omni, it can't change it's hardpoints. Many Omni builds in MW:O people create use hardpoint/omni-pod swapping. My own Nova replaced an arm with a Prime for some lasers, and a torso for some more missile hardpoints. Without the Omni characteristic, I would have been left (even with hard point inflation) with only ballistics and missile hardpoints. I've gotten Ballistics and Missiles to work together, but it isn't exactly an easy thing to do...

3. By your own definition, then I should be able to equip anything I want to an IS chassis. We want to follow TT rules more closely? Then we can't just pick and choose were to follow closely because "TT", and were we deviate because "balance". Hardpoints were added to Battlemechs. Locked equipment to Omnis (which I might note that some mechs lost some of their locked equipment, such as the Adder's flamer). This was to enhance game play.

4. I feel that the customization balance between Omni and Standard mechs are actually at a fairly level place right now. Before hand Clan mechs had all the advantages. Now they feel a lot more even with IS mechs. Letting all Clan mechs gain jump and not IS mechs in return I feel would only disrupt that balance. Even then, if all mechs could gain jump, I think it would not be good for game play. (Opinion.)



Want my personal opinion? I think Mechlab is bad for the game. Don't get me wrong, Mechlab basically makes the game as well, but it's also caused so much trouble as well. I play a lot of stock mech matches (public sometimes, but mostly private stock mech only matches). I'll comment that stock mechs on stock mechs seems to actually preform rather well. I also feel it would be easier to balance chassis against each other if they couldn't be altered...

But, I at the same time do like customizing my mechs. Who doesn't? So, I'm not saying I want Mechlab removed. More so just pointing out the flaws it can present... (my point being between customization and game play balance.)

1) its not Balanced if one Side is Inferior to the other, also a Single Bad Variant doenst make up for a bad Locked Chassis,
yes Hard Points can Make or Break a Chassis, but Such as -20% Ballistic Cooldown and +20% Velocity (WVR-7D(L),

2) i was giving it as an Example on the Tonnage available to use,
but perhaps the NVA-S would be a Better =Example=
a NVA-S will Gain so Much more becoming a BattleMech,
Lets assume a NVA-Prime(6E 4B)+(0)no HardPoint Inflation as 10 HardPoints is Enough,
Add Endo Remove 4Locked DHS and you now have 22 FreeTons, Gauss/AC20/2UAC5 builds are now Possible,

3) the Hard Point system was created for MWO to Stop Somethings from Getting out of Hand,
we cant Hide behind Lore as Rule, why? because this Topic is Supported By Lore,
also in LORE Any OmniPod could be Equiped to Any OmniMech, as per Lore,

4) its only Good for already Optimized OmniMechs, again this isnt a IS vs Clan Topic,
you want to see all the Problems MWO OmniSystem has Just Wait till IS gets some of their OmniMechs,
we will see Locked SL/MLs, Locked Case, Locked Small STD Engines, Locked Ferro, Just Like Clan Omnis,

i would agree some Aspects of the Mech Lab are abit Tedious, and it is hard to Balance,
but the Mech Lab is why i Play Mech Warrior, i want to be a BT hero with my Personal Mech,
Everyone does, Players dont Play Grunts, we make out Mech as if we are the Stories Heros,

its a hard Problem, and Not Easly Over Come,
i dont have a Sure Fire Solution, but i can try my best,
as i think we all want to Try and Solve the Problem

i would like to See OmniMechs Get Something,
Even if its Just an Endo Unlock, to help the UnderPreformers with out it,
Even if its some Made Up Variant to Help balance out hard Point Starved Mechs,
Just something to Help, Because a -2.5ERLL Duration Quirk is A Joke,

[MauttyKoray]

Andi Nagasia, on 28 June 2016 - 12:32 PM, said:

I dont mean to Seem that OmniMechs need to Be Better(Making BattleMechs Obsolete)
but they do need to Be Balanced, Right now All BattleMechs can be Optimized in their use,
where as OmniMechs cant be and thats a problem their needs to be a Benefit to OmniMechs,


All BattleMechs can Upgrade Endo and Ferro, allowing Each to Optimize Available Tonnage and Crits,
All BattleMechs can Change their Engine, Again allowing to Optimize Available Tonnage to Speed,
All BattleMechs(To my Knowledge) have HardPoint inflation adding 2-4 HardPoints,
Also No BattleMech has Locked Equipment to Hold it back Tonnage wise,

All OmniMechs have Locked Endo and Ferro, you Ether Have it (SCR/TBR) or you Dont(NVA/SMN/GAR)
All OmniMechs have Locked Engine, Again you Ether Have it Right(SCR/TBR) or you Dont(IFR/GAR/DWF)
All OmniMechs Can Change there HardPoints, Again Have it Right(SCR/TBR) or you Dont(ADR/SHC/GAR)
Most OmniMechs have Locked Equipment, Again Have it Right(SCR/TBR) or you Dont(MLX/SHC/NVA/WHK)


In this Every BattleMech Can be Optimized(Endo Mandatory)(Ferro Optional)(Engine Size),
where OmniMechs are Very, Have or Have Not, you ether Do(TBR) or you Dont(SMN),
(also im not Comparing IS-vs-Clan, this Topic is Purely BattleMech-vs-OmniMech)


Here ill give 2 Examples,
-
1) a TBR wont lose Much going from OmniMech to Battle Mech,
Lets assume TBR-Prime(5E & 2M & 1B)+(1E & 1B)Hardpoint inflation, so (6E 2M 2B),
with that Most Builds with the TBR you can do as an OmniMech can be Dont as a BattleMech,
-
2) a NVA will Gain so Much more becoming a BattleMech,
Lets assume a NVA-Prime(12E)+(0)no HardPoint Inflation as 12 is more than Enough,
Add Endo Remove 4Locked DHS and you now have 22 FreeTons, Gauss/AC20/2UAC5 builds are now Possible,
Edit- Spelling

Right...I can't even take you seriously...yes the SCR and TBR are powerful...but I have more fun and often do better in my Nova, while the IFR is a great medium scout mech, while the Adder??? Pft, hahaha, I have done so much great **** in an Adder, I cant go on, but I will. The Shadow Cat is a great Medium striker/sniper, and the Gargoyle is one of my personal favorite assaults with great speed and armor with a moderate firepower to back it up.

this sounds like more of a post of someone who can't play mechs that don't just load their weapons to the brim (SCR/TBR) and even those aren't infallible mechs. I've gone toe to toe with both and won plenty of times in mechs of various tonnages/builds. The only one I really ever am cautious of is an (S)SRM SCR and that's more so because of derpy alpha mechanics and being able to alpha constantly when you really shouldn't...

Edited by MauttyKoray, 28 June 2016 - 07:50 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

MauttyKoray, on 28 June 2016 - 07:49 PM, said:

Right...I can't even take you seriously...yes the SCR and TBR are powerful...but I have more fun and often do better in my Nova, while the IFR is a great medium scout mech, while the Adder??? Pft, hahaha, I have done so much great **** in an Adder, I cant go on, but I will. The Shadow Cat is a great Medium striker/sniper, and the Gargoyle is one of my personal favorite assaults with great speed and armor with a moderate firepower to back it up.

this sounds like more of a post of someone who can't play mechs that don't just load their weapons to the brim (SCR/TBR) and even those aren't infallible mechs. I've gone toe to toe with both and won plenty of times in mechs of various tonnages/builds. The only one I really ever am cautious of is an (S)SRM SCR and that's more so because of derpy alpha mechanics and being able to alpha constantly when you really shouldn't...

im Comparing to the SCR/TBR because thats what Any Buff to the OmniSystem will Cause people to Scream about,
now i know their are some Builds that work for all the OmniMechs that ive Listed as being UnderPowered,
but i shouldnt have to Run 12ERSL in my Nova so it can be Viable,
(Just an Example, i Love and do Great in my NVAs)

the Thing is once again Just because you do good in a mech doesnt mean that it Doesnt need a Buff,
if the Majority Says a Mech is Good and Plays well, than it will be Regarded as a Good Mech that Plays well,
if the Majority Says a Mech is Bad and Doesnt Play well, than it will be Regarded as a Bad Mech,
no one Person Alone can say Definitively for the Majority, not me, not you,

Can i be Wrong, Yup, its happened, and in those Cases ill Admit Defeat,
im not so Proud as to Never Change, people have Convinced me of things i got wrong before,
things i didnt think of and ive felt abit Dopy, Just as Bishop about the Debates we have had,
some times we are on the same side, and some times we arnt,