117 replies to this topic

[ColourfulConfetti]

People still think it's a good idea to make balance changes based on the horrifically broken and dice based Tabletop system?

[SplashDown]

im all for all clan mechs being able to fit JJ's

[Andi Nagasia]

Signal27, on 07 October 2015 - 10:44 PM, said:

Stopped reading there.

O Thank God,
for a Second there i thought you were one of those people who Post after Just reading the Title,
at least you read the First sentence of the Topic, and can see Exactly what i was talking about,

Golden Vulf, on 08 October 2015 - 10:41 AM, said:

So that leaves the Stormcrow. It could take up to 6 jump jets at .5 tons each. It would be pretty sweet.

Actually the Master Rules give an Example,
that a 55Ton Clan OmniMechs JJ would Cost 1Ton Each not 0.5Tons,
so with that a SCR would lose 6Tons with this JJ Upgrade,
20-50Tons(30Dif)=0.5Ton JJs / 55-85Tons(30Dif)=1Ton JJs / 90-100Tons(10Dif)=2Ton JJs,

LordBraxton, on 08 October 2015 - 10:46 AM, said:

Which IS mechs getting jump jets would break the game? What IS mechs getting a few extra hardpoints would break the game? The answer is very few. So we should just give JJs and 2 extra hardpoints to every IS mech besides the thunderbolt and stalker! <<<<<< That's what this discussion reads like

well All IS OmniMechs would also Benefit from this as well,
Such as the Raptor(3052 IS-Omni) as its mostly a IS-MLX without JJ,

GrimRiver, on 08 October 2015 - 11:26 AM, said:

I feel giving all clan mechs JJ would undermind other variants of that mech who's whole selling point is "JJ" and if all clan mechs have JJ then whats the point of buying that mech that was under quirked or has less hardpoints because it was the only variant with JJ.

Well in this Case OmniMechs Mobility would change as per their Choice,
Adding JJ would decrease the OmniMechs Mobility(Acel / Decel / TwistSpeed),
Removing JJ would increase the OmniMechs Mobility(Acel / Decel / TwistSpeed),

PalmaRoma, on 08 October 2015 - 02:01 PM, said:

People still think it's a good idea to make balance changes based on the horrifically broken and dice based Tabletop system?

well in TT OmniMechs had advantages that they just dont have in MWO,
which is why in OmniMech vs BatteMech, BattleMechs have the Advantage in most Cases,
Tech needs to Be Balanced First, after the Disadvantages of OmniMechs should be Apparent,

SplashDown, on 08 October 2015 - 02:21 PM, said:

im all for all clan mechs being able to fit JJ's

not all Clan Mechs, But All OmniMechs(IS & Clan),

[Tesunie]

Golden Vulf, on 08 October 2015 - 10:41 AM, said:

Which omnimechs getting jump jets would break the game?

....

So that leaves the Stormcrow. It could take up to 6 jump jets at .5 tons each. It would be pretty sweet.

I do believe that helped answer the question?

I believe someone else also said it very well. So I'll basically repeat.
If the Stormcrow (in this example) could get JJs, what role would the Nova possible have still?

I think you also underestimate the advantage a Warhawk could have if it did have JJs. Even if it could only place them in one side torso, with it's armor and speed it could do very well from it.


I still would have to say no. You can't get everything. Some restrictions are in place, and they are suppose to help add in flavor, distinctions, roles and balance into the game. A completely free customization system (which is what this concept would/could lead into) probably wouldn't be the best system for the game. I just don't think it would be a good idea...

Edited by Tesunie, 08 October 2015 - 04:45 PM.

[MischiefSC]

After everything else is balanced I'm all for Clan mechs unlocking jjs. Currently given that clan tech is already unbalanced I would say there are more important issues to fix.

Edited by MischiefSC, 08 October 2015 - 05:10 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Tesunie, on 08 October 2015 - 04:45 PM, said:

I do believe that helped answer the question?

I believe someone else also said it very well. So I'll basically repeat.
If the Stormcrow (in this example) could get JJs, what role would the Nova possible have still?

I think you also underestimate the advantage a Warhawk could have if it did have JJs. Even if it could only place them in one side torso, with it's armor and speed it could do very well from it.


I still would have to say no. You can't get everything. Some restrictions are in place, and they are suppose to help add in flavor, distinctions, roles and balance into the game. A completely free customization system (which is what this concept would/could lead into) probably wouldn't be the best system for the game. I just don't think it would be a good idea...

the SCR would get JJ that Weight 1Ton Each and being forced to take 6 means 6 less Tons(or 17Tons Total),
this would mean that a SCR would have +1Ton more than the Nova with Much Less Pod Space,

the Restrictions that are in Place are for IS vs Clan Balance,
those Made Sense when IS was Only BattleMech and Clan was Only OmniMech,
but now with IIC Mechs Clan Have BattleMechs, with Will be Superior to all but Super Optimized OmniMechs,
so With Faction Tech Balance, BattleMech vs OmniMech Balance also has to happen, This is Part of That,

[Tesunie]

Andi Nagasia, on 08 October 2015 - 06:38 PM, said:

the SCR would get JJ that Weight 1Ton Each and being forced to take 6 means 6 less Tons(or 17Tons Total),
this would mean that a SCR would have +1Ton more than the Nova with Much Less Pod Space,

Um... Medium mechs JJs weigh 0.5 tons... Just an FYI...

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

As the Re-Balance is just a little while past, I think this is a good time to revisit this concept!

I like this idea. It gives further flavor to Omnimechs. (Not Clantech, mind you! There is the distinct probability of IS Omnis in the future.)

As long as they are required to take up a (energy?) hardpoint, I think it would be great! Can't see any unbalancing aspect to this; our JJ 'Mechs could use more mobility, anyway!

Additionally, I think JJs just need to be revisited in general; they're way underpowered, especially for the heavier 'Mechs (Summoner, Executioner, etc.).

[ColdPsyker1]

I would like this, especially if they gave "JJ hardpoints" to parts with no weapon hardpoints

Then a trade off would have to be made

But I also can't tell you how much I love having 4 different types of omnipods, all or most of which do nothing (so it could be quirked to have +5% torso twist speed... Yay?)

[Signal27]

Andi Nagasia, on 04 July 2015 - 11:44 AM, said:

In BattleTech Lore as well as the TT Rules,

Stopped reading right there.

[C E Dwyer]

Can't be in favour of any JJ changes until the victor gets it's bounce back

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Signal27, on 12 December 2015 - 06:41 PM, said:

Stopped reading right there.

That's unfortunate, because the idea is only based on those rules. The OPs implementation seems wholely MWO friendly.

[Tesunie]

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 12 December 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

That's unfortunate, because the idea is only based on those rules. The OPs implementation seems wholely MWO friendly.

Definition and opinion on "Wholely MW:O friendly" is strongly debatable...
(The Firestarter is considered a better mech over the Wolfhound simply because of.... Jump Jets. This would do little to harm Omni-mechs, and would only make them more powerful, some of which don't need extra power boosts.)

As counter, the other person should have read the entire idea before creating a post in the thread, so they could create a more informed opinion on the subject instead of no opinion on the subject.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

If extra Omni JJs could only be mounted in torso energy hardpoint, I think it would be limited enough.

[Tesunie]

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 12 December 2015 - 10:28 PM, said:

If extra Omni JJs could only be mounted in torso energy hardpoint, I think it would be limited enough.

That might lead to some other problems, but I will also remark about what the original statement was.

I also might want to point out the reasons the S pods have locked JJs... for balance...

So, as I said. "Wholely MW:O friendly" is debatable. As your opinion, you are entitled to it. Claiming it as definitive fact would be a gross mis-statement without some concrete evidence and numbers to back your claim, as well as a far more defined concept and a more thoroughly proven impact on it's implementation within the game. AKA: You haven't done enough research, nor have presented enough evidnece, to support such a claim. Before that claim could be considered, you should present all torso omni-pods for all clan mechs, mention what ones have energy hardpoints that could be converted, and why/how those mechs could/would be affected by such a change. You need to mention any possible impact you can consider, and keep in mind other possibly impacts you didn't consider that someone else may bring up.

I'd also want answered as well: Why energy hardpoints? Why not any hardpoints? JJs already have their own hard points, so why add this? If Clan Omnimechs can do this, why can't IS Battlemechs?

If we go by lore, than Battlemechs should have even more customization options over the Omnimechs. Omnimechs had the advantage of being able to quickly change gear, within hours even. Battlemechs however could change everything, but might take anywhere from weeks to years to customize.



Overall, I think this prospect, in any form, would probably be a bad thing. Suddenly Adders could get a single JJ in it's CT. The Stormcrow (arguably the best medium mech in the game) could get 2 JJs. And there are more... The mechs that this would be buffing would be typically the wrong one, and seeming a little random. It would disrupt balance more than it would help balance. It'd be similar to the "wouldn't hurt the game any" suggestion of "giving all mechs ECM" I've heard as a concept. Without some major changes to ECM, that would make SSRMs and LRMs completely useless, nullifying a complete weapon system/type completely.

Need I remind again, Those Omnipods that have JJs are all now locked gear for a reason...

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Well, I did qualify my statement with a "seems"!

But, here is my thinking:
Omnimechs can change hardpoint (and quirks) but not other locked gear. That's cool. But many argue that this is greatly in favor of Battlemechs.

I actually like that Omnis cannot change equipment (but I also think some Omnis need to be revisited; that Summoner, again..., I want my ES!!!), it gives them distinction from Battlemechs.

To circumvent the unlocking of equipment, I would give them some other benefit. This suggestion fits the bill.

I doubt this would be game breaking for the reason that: if only allowed on torso energy hardpoints it would prevent the use of that hardpoint and use tonnage on the 'Mech; significantly impacting potential firepower. Those that want to keep their meta builds certainly wouldn't take them.

Even Stormcrow: two 1-ton JJs (as per OP suggestion) in the torso wouldn't result in a new meta.

The mobility gained from it is largely unconcerning to me because: A) JJ are not that big of a deal even on the 'Mechs that have them locked and B,) mobility is a distinguishing aspect in Omnis and this is in keeping with that aspect.

Why energy? Because JJs are, in effect, vented plasma (energy) from the engine; just like energy weapons and very unlike ballistic or missile weapons.

This is, after all, a tentative suggestion to be considered well before even testing.

Edited by Brandarr Gunnarson, 13 December 2015 - 12:27 AM.

[Drunk Canuck]

The majority of OmniMech designs that don't have JJs have fixed slots in the legs, which is why they shouldn't be able to equip them. The only Mech that would see a gain from that kind of rule due to having open crit slots in the legs is the HBR.

Edited by Drunk Canuck, 13 December 2015 - 11:26 AM.

[nehebkau]

Andi Nagasia, on 04 July 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:

If that is True then Why is it when Suggesting to to Mend some of the OmniMech Rules,
Many Cry Foul as it goes against the TT Rules of which MWO is Based,

I just want to Understand what type of game this is, are we folling TT? or Ignoring TT Rules?
Ether we should be allowed to Unlock JJ on the MLX, Nova, Summoner, Executioner, against the TT Rules,
or be allowed to Equip them to All OmniMechs as Per those Same TT Rules,
Edit-

You have to IGNORE many TT rules simply because TT is based on RNG (dice) for much of what you are doing. In this game there are no dice and stuff that makes sense in TT (when balanced with dice) are not reasonable in a FPS.

[Andi Nagasia]

Drunk Canuck, on 13 December 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

The majority of OmniMech designs that don't have JJs have fixed slots in the legs, which is why they shouldn't be able to equip them. The only Mech that would see a gain from that kind of rule due to having open crit slots in the legs is the HBR.

Um There are some JJ Mechs that have them in their STs,
(MLX, TBR, DWF) even the Eventual Clan OmniMech DragonFly,
also nothing States that JJ have to be Placed in the Legs,
and the Future WHK with JJ does have all 4 in its RT,

nehebkau, on 13 December 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

You have to IGNORE many TT rules simply because TT is based on RNG (dice) for much of what you are doing. In this game there are no dice and stuff that makes sense in TT (when balanced with dice) are not reasonable in a FPS.

Ok first off i know this is an FPS not TT, BUT there are somethings that should be the same in both,
for instance Mech Construction, what we are talking about has nothing to do with MWO being an FPS,
if BattleMechs get Mech Factory level Customization(Full Construction said to take Months),
than OmniMechs should get what they have as well, according to the BT-TT(JJ Upgrade),

this Change Wont make any OmniMech Overpowered,
but it will allow for more Options in OmniMechs and even help some of the UnderPerformers in New Roles,
(JumpLess SMN(27.5FreeTons)(Jumping MDD(23FreeTons)(Soaring WHK(28.5FreeTons)(Flying GAR(16FreeTons)
Edit- Spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 13 December 2015 - 04:28 PM.

[Tesunie]

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 13 December 2015 - 12:27 AM, said:

Well, I did qualify my statement with a "seems"!

Granted and agreed.

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 13 December 2015 - 12:27 AM, said:

To circumvent the unlocking of equipment, I would give them some other benefit. This suggestion fits the bill.

They already can customize their hardpoint selection/options through switching Omnipods. This leads to no "bad" variant in the line of a chassis. (But tends to lead to "bad Chassis" instead.)

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 13 December 2015 - 12:27 AM, said:

I doubt this would be game breaking for the reason that: if only allowed on torso energy hardpoints it would prevent the use of that hardpoint and use tonnage on the 'Mech; significantly impacting potential firepower. Those that want to keep their meta builds certainly wouldn't take them.

Even Stormcrow: two 1-ton JJs (as per OP suggestion) in the torso wouldn't result in a new meta.

Jump Jets for medium mechs are 0.5 tons, not 1 ton. So, for the cost of two energy hard points someone could take two JJs for 1 ton. That would give the Stormcrow some amazing agility, while (of course in my opinion) barely touching it's actual damage output. Not to mention the current hit box jiggle that tapping the JJs does to a mech, making them much harder to hit/damage/register your damage against... (Maybe if this was fixed, as well as how JJs worked overall...)

I think overall you underestimate the power of the Dark Side... I mean Jump Jets...

Some mechs are considered so good only because of their Jump Jets, such as the Griffin, Spider, Firestarter and even the Jenner. Where as the Commando, Locust, Wolfhound and the non-ECM Raven's tends to be considered underpreformers, and none of them have JJs.

I feel that JJs grant a mech great power, depending upon how it's used. It can not only be good for ambushing, jump sniping (it's still a thing), getting unstuck from terrain hiccups, but also great for making sharp and sudden turns, jumping over a target as you hit them, spinning in mid air and even turning around completely, avoiding seismic sensors (at least until you actually hit the ground), and even escaping ground bound opponents by jumping over a hill or building/obstruction they can't get over, ETC. (I've been known to use JJs to lure enemy mechs near were Theta is on Frozen City, then jump over the cliff and escaping, leaving enemies in a useless location as my team focus fires other enemies.)

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 13 December 2015 - 12:27 AM, said:

The mobility gained from it is largely unconcerning to me because: A) JJ are not that big of a deal even on the 'Mechs that have them locked and B,) mobility is a distinguishing aspect in Omnis and this is in keeping with that aspect.

Why energy? Because JJs are, in effect, vented plasma (energy) from the engine; just like energy weapons and very unlike ballistic or missile weapons.

Omnis already tend to go faster than their same weight non-omni counterparts. I think this is advantage enough. Combined with not dieing when losing a side torso, while having the weight savings of an XL engine, typically lighter (and more powerful, longer ranged) weapons (used to balance the locked equipment and hardpoints), and...

Energy can make sense via lore aspects and energy mechanics. Still not certain that it would be a boon to balance, and still feel it would be a detriment. But at least now I understand the reasons behind the mechanic.

Brandarr Gunnarson, on 13 December 2015 - 12:27 AM, said:

This is, after all, a tentative suggestion to be considered well before even testing.

And, granted. I understand it's a tentative suggestion, but I don't think this suggestion has been thought out as far as it's actual impact to balance itself. But, I am willing to continue to talk about it, so consider it me not dismissing the concept completely either. I'm willing to debate the point, but realize that no one here has convinced me yet that it would be a good thing. (And yes, I also pilot clan mechs as well as IS. Mostly IS I shall admit, but not strictly.)