117 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

You can go ahead and get your pitch forks ready for this one... But (and take this statement lightly, only trying to make a point), I think Mechlab is what is unbalancing in this game...

Yes. The fact we can customize our mechs (which is a lot of fun), tends to actually throw off balance and removes much of the BT feel to the game. However, without Mechlab, we probably wouldn't have much of a game, as many people (myself included) like creating new builds and using them. However, Mechlab also opens up the concept of min-maxing, getting the most bang for your buck, going for efficiency instead of flavor.

(Then again, even without Mechlab, we probably would still have mechs described as "bad mechs". It will happen in any PvP styled game with non-perfect balance. AKA: Balance not achieved by everyone using the same exact thing.)

[Andi Nagasia]

Tesunie, on 13 December 2015 - 04:49 PM, said:

They already can customize their hardpoint selection/options through switching Omnipods. This leads to no "bad" variant in the line of a chassis. (But tends to lead to "bad Chassis" instead.)

sadly this, with BattleMech Construction many Mech Can -Optimize- so they can Compete,
the Problem is a good many OmniMechs(with Locked Upgrades/Engines) arnt fully Optimized,
Ferro instead of Endo, OverSized Engines, Locked DHS, No Upgrades at all, Ect,

Tesunie said:

Jump Jets for medium mechs are 0.5 tons, not 1 ton. So, for the cost of two energy hard points someone could take two JJs for 1 ton. That would give the Stormcrow some amazing agility, while (of course in my opinion) barely touching it's actual damage output. Not to mention the current hit box jiggle that tapping the JJs does to a mech, making them much harder to hit/damage/register your damage against... (Maybe if this was fixed, as well as how JJs worked overall...)

Well, in the BattleTech 35000- Master Rules it lists the 55Ton SCR as having 1Ton JJs,
whether this is a Misprint or a Balance too, is up to the Reader but im ganna assume it was for Balance,
so thats why my List, Lists 55-85Ton mechs as having 1Ton JJs, sorry for any Confusion,

Tesunie said:

I think overall you underestimate the power of the Dark Side... I mean Jump Jets...

Some mechs are considered so good only because of their Jump Jets, such as the Griffin, Spider, Firestarter and even the Jenner. Where as the Commando, Locust, Wolfhound and the non-ECM Raven's tends to be considered underpreformers, and none of them have JJs.

I feel that JJs grant a mech great power, depending upon how it's used. It can not only be good for ambushing, jump sniping (it's still a thing), getting unstuck from terrain hiccups, but also great for making sharp and sudden turns, jumping over a target as you hit them, spinning in mid air and even turning around completely, avoiding seismic sensors (at least until you actually hit the ground), and even escaping ground bound opponents by jumping over a hill or building/obstruction they can't get over, ETC. (I've been known to use JJs to lure enemy mechs near were Theta is on Frozen City, then jump over the cliff and escaping, leaving enemies in a useless location as my team focus fires other enemies.)

True but thats for BattleMech JJ, where you can say i am only ganna mount 5 of 8 ect,
for My Concept OmniMechs will get an Upgrade(JumpJets) where they have to take the Max Available JJs,
this i feel will act more as a Balance tool as well,(a SCR will lose 6Tons for JJ as it has to take all 6 JJs)

Tesunie said:

Omnis already tend to go faster than their same weight non-omni counterparts. I think this is advantage enough. Combined with not dieing when losing a side torso, while having the weight savings of an XL engine, typically lighter (and more powerful, longer ranged) weapons (used to balance the locked equipment and hardpoints), and...

Energy can make sense via lore aspects and energy mechanics. Still not certain that it would be a boon to balance, and still feel it would be a detriment. But at least now I understand the reasons behind the mechanic.

im assuming 1v1 Balance, this isnt just for Clan Mechs, but OmniMechs,
remember IS will eventually get Omni's & im worried about them,

Tesunie said:

And, granted. I understand it's a tentative suggestion, but I don't think this suggestion has been thought out as far as it's actual impact to balance itself. But, I am willing to continue to talk about it, so consider it me not dismissing the concept completely either. I'm willing to debate the point, but realize that no one here has convinced me yet that it would be a good thing. (And yes, I also pilot clan mechs as well as IS. Mostly IS I shall admit, but not strictly.)

Thanks, I hope you can see im caring more about OmniMech to BattleMech Balance,
than this just being a Buff to Clan Mechs, im hoping we get the Raptor(3052) soon,

[Lugin]

Andi Nagasia, on 13 December 2015 - 05:35 PM, said:

Well, in the BattleTech 35000- Master Rules it lists the 55Ton SCR as having 1Ton JJs,
whether this is a Misprint or a Balance too, is up to the Reader but im ganna assume it was for Balance,
so thats why my List, Lists 55-85Ton mechs as having 1Ton JJs, sorry for any Confusion,

What page? Cause I'm digging through that rulebook, and the pod-mounted jump jet rules for omnis (p 129) tell you to refer to the normal battlemech-mass-range/jet-mass table on p 118, which state 0.5t jets for any mech massing 20 to 55 tons.

Though why you're using Master Rules when Total Warfare/Tech Manual have supplanted it...

That said, I too want the Raptor.

Edited by Lugin, 13 December 2015 - 07:15 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Lugin, on 13 December 2015 - 07:14 PM, said:

What page? Cause I'm digging through that rulebook, and the pod-mounted jump jet rules for omnis (p 129) tell you to refer to the normal battlemech-mass-range/jet-mass table on p 118, which state 0.5t jets for any mech massing 20 to 55 tons.

Though why you're using Master Rules when Total Warfare/Tech Manual have supplanted it...

That said, I too want the Raptor.

What Page? Looking, give me a sec to Check,

Why Master Rules? i have a Digital Copy of lots of RPGs, D&D, Rifts, BT, RT,

Ya, cant wait to get the Raptor,

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

As an additional suggestion: make any extra JJs weigh 2x the norm for that 'Mech.
_______________

Yeah, IS Omnis must be coming. Gonna be interesting; but I fear for them, what with their locked equipment and all (engines).

[Lightfoot]

Jump Jets are pod mounted on omnimechs as far as I know so they should not be fixed equipment since they are not part of a mech omnipod. So they should all be removable. Whether PGI wants to allow jump jets on all omnimechs is doubtful.

[Lugin]

Lightfoot, on 13 December 2015 - 11:22 PM, said:

Jump Jets are pod mounted on omnimechs as far as I know so they should not be fixed equipment since they are not part of a mech omnipod. So they should all be removable. Whether PGI wants to allow jump jets on all omnimechs is doubtful.

Forcing pods that add jets to take all the jets is something PGI did for mechs like the Kit Fox and Timber which don't have jets in the base chassis. Others, like the Summoner or Nova, have jets hardwired on the base chassis.

[Bishop Steiner]

Andi Nagasia, on 04 July 2015 - 11:44 AM, said:

In BattleTech Lore as well as the TT Rules,
Any OmniMech should be able to Mount JumpJets,

(BattleTech 35000 - Master Rules)
"Jump Jets
Players may add jump jets to any OmniMech, whether or not
its standard configuration has jump jets. Jump jets may only be
mounted in pods on the left and right legs, the left and right torsos,
and the center torso, and these locations must have sufficient
critical slots open. Use the Determine Jump Capability
rules,"

Why? Because Many People who Play MWO love the BattleTech Universe,
And Many would like to have MWO to stay True to some Lore & the TT Rules,
We Understand that as MWO isnt TT and that curtain Rules have to Change,
For Both Balance of the Game and for the Fun of those Playing it,


=JumpJet OmniMech Upgrade Idea=
this Idea is to add a JumpJet Upgrade for all OmniMechs,
For this Balancing this OmniMech Upgrade lets First Set Some Rules,
1) an OmniMechs JumpJets Each Weight a Set Amount(Tonnage-Based),
2) a OmniMech with this Upgrade Must take the Max Allowed JJ(Speed-Based),
3) These JumpJets Will be Fixed into Certain Locations on the OmniMech(CT/ST/Legs),
4) Modifying an OmniMech to Receive this Upgrade Will Limit its Mobility(Negative Quirks),
5) Modifying an OmniMech to Remove this Upgrade Will Enhance its Mobility(Positive Quirks),

=Rule1=OmniMech JumpJets Weight=
Tonnage Range,.........JumpJet Weight...
20-50,..........................0.5Tons Per JJ....
55-85,...........................1Tons Per JJ......
90-100,.........................2Tons Per JJ......
(JJ Weight Based on TT Master Rules),

=Rule2=OmniMech Max JumpJets=
Speed,.......Walking-Speed,.......Max-JJ,...
97kph,...............6Hexs,................6JJ,......
81kph,...............5Hexs,................5JJ,......
64kph,...............4Hexs,................4JJ,......
48kph,...............3Hexs,................3JJ,......
(JJ Max Based on TT Hexs),

=Rule3=OmniMech Fixed JumpJet Locations=
OmniMech,..........Fixed Locations,.........Gain/Loss,...
MistLynx,.................(3LT)(3RT),..............+3Tons.......
ArcticCheetah,...(2LL)(2CT)(2RL),..........+3Tons.......
KitFox,............(2LL)(1LT)(1RT)(2RL),.....-3Tons........
Adder,.....................(3LT)(3RT),..............-3Tons........
IceFerret,................(3LT)(3RT),..............-3Tons........
ShadowCat,....(2LL)(1LT)(1RT)(2RL),.....+3Tons.......
Nova,..................(2LL)(1CT)(2RL),........+2.5Tons......
StormCrow,..............(3LT)(3RT),.............-6Tons.........
MadDog,.............(2LL)(1CT)(2RL),.........-5Tons.........
EbonJaguar,............(2LT)(3RT),.............-5Tons.........
HellBringer,..........(2LL)(1CT)(2RL),........-5Tons.........
Summoner,..........(2LL)(1CT)(2RL),........+5Tons.........
TimberWolf,..........(2LT)(1CT)(2RT),.......-5Tons.........
Gargoyle,.............(2LL)(1CT)(2RL),........-5Tons.........
WarHawk,......................(4RT),................-4Tons..........
Executioner,..............(2LL)(2RL),............+8Tons.........
DireWolf,...............(1LT)(1CT)(1RT),......-6Tons..........
(Locations Based on where they would be in TT)

=Rule4=OmniMech Receiving this Upgrade=
OmniMechs that dont come with JumpJets Standard & choose to Upgrade,
will Gain -10%Acceleration/Deceleration, as well as a -10%Twist-Speed Quirk,
(S-Variants arnt considered JumpJet Mechs(these Penalties would Apply to them)

=Rule5=OmniMech Removing this Upgrade=
OmniMechs that come with JumpJets Standard & choose to Downgrade,
will Gain +10%Acceleration/Deceleration, as well as a +10%Twist-Speed Quirk,
(S-Variants arnt considered JumpJet Mechs(these Bonuses wouldnt Apply to them)


=Why do i Think OmniMechs need This?=
I can understand That Right now Clan is the only Side that has OmniMechs,
I also Know that with the IIC Mechs Coming that an IS OmniMech Pack is Likely in the Future,
so if we Disregard Tech, in the Current MWO System OmniMechs are Inferior to BattleMechs,
as BattleMechs have many More Advantages Over OmniMechs,
-
BattleMechs=
1) Can Upgrade Endo/Ferro,
2) No Locked Equipment/Fixed Slots,
3) Can Change Engine Size Type,
4) Hardpoint Inflation,
-
OmniMechs
1) Changeable HardPoints,
-
yes OmniMechs Can Change Hardpoints,
but even that is off set by a BattleMech HardPoint Inflation,
so if both sides have BattleMechs Why Take OmniMechs?


i think This should be a Choice for OmniMechs,
First, to Pay Homage to MWOs, BattleTech Roots,
as well as Give OmniMechs an Edge Over BattleMechs,
Also with this Break Down i Feel it could be Balanced,

Please Remember this is an All or Nothing OmniMech Upgrade,
Upgrading JJ on an OmniMech they would automatically be put on into locations and Locked,
OmniMechs are Forced to take the Max Allowed JumpJets, limiting some Tonnage and Space,

Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks


Edit- Link,
Edit2- AMS Change,
Edit3- Full Topic Rework
Edit4- Slight Quirk Tweaking
Edit5- Topic Title reworked,
Edit6- JJ Weight Added,

be a great way to make the Summoner and Nova even more useless........

[Quaamik]

For most chassis you have that option now. Just swap the side torsos out for one with Jump Jets.

The only change I'd support would be to add side torso or leg omni pods with jump jets for chassis that don't have any.

[Khobai]

JJs definitely shouldnt be unlocked for all clan mechs. Otherwise theres no reason to use certain mechs like the nova if the stormcrow can have JJs (assuming novas will be viable after theyre rescaled).

However JJs should be unlocked on non-S omnipods and only be locked on S-omnipods.

That would allow mechs like the Summoner to take less than the max number of jumpjets, an option it currently doesnt have, but the timberwolf does have.

Its unfair that the Summoner is forced to take max jumpjets when the timberwolf can take any number of jumpjets it wants simply by rearranging its omnipods.

Edited by Khobai, 18 December 2015 - 07:19 PM.

[Melon Lord]

As I mainly drive a Stormcrow these days, I approve of this idea.

As I really like MWO, I also disapprove of this idea.

Hmmm....well we should....but if we.....I think we should.....flying Stormcrows would be fun.....broken mechs....

I'm out.

[Andi Nagasia]

Rewrote with new After Quirk Values,
Acceleration/Deceleration Quirk Changed to Speed Quirks,
Twist-Speed Quirk changed to Torso-Twist-Angle Quirk,

Bishop Steiner, on 18 December 2015 - 12:12 PM, said:

be a great way to make the Summoner and Nova even more useless........

Well its JJ for Tonnage, so a SMN could remove its JJ for a +10% speed Boost,
Making that Summoner go up to 99.2Kph(with Speed Tweak), as well as giving it 5 more tons,
this would also giving the SMN a new Role as a Super Fast Heavy,

in this regard a Nova without JJ could now go 95.7Kph, and would Gain 2.5Tons(18.5FreeTons),
where as a SCR would be Taken down to 87.4, along with costing 3-6Tons(17-20FreeTons),
(why 3-6Tons on the SCR? one source JJ cost 0.5Ton per, another has it 1Ton per),

[Tesunie]

Andi Nagasia, on 31 March 2016 - 07:29 PM, said:

(why 3-6Tons on the SCR? one source JJ cost 0.5Ton per, another has it 1Ton per),

Although I still disagree with the idea...

JJs on medium mechs cost 0.5 tons as they take the same class of JJs as a light mech does.

[Unreliable Mercenary]

Why not? More high flying mechs to ***** shoot is fine by me!

[Ghogiel]

Doubt it would break the game. Basically all the best clan Omnis have JJs already. About the scariest thing you would see from this is jumping SCRs.

[Ace Selin]

So all IS Mechs can mount any number of Jump Jets. Great Idea!

[MadcatX]

Let's start by changing the current hoverjets into actual jump jets, and then we can talk about what changes can be made to omni's.

[ice trey]

I'm OK with it, but I was also OK with the idea of Clan Mechs being inherently better, but forced to fight 12-on-5 matches, with each "Kill" only being worth half the value. Vice versa, IS players that took out a clan mech getting the same points as two kills.

But apparently imbalanced games are badwrongfun and people can't deal with their e-peens shortened in order to use teamwork to fight better equipped opponents.

This game should have stayed single player, I swear to god. I wouldn't have to deal with a quarter of this bull ****.

Edited by ice trey, 01 April 2016 - 02:40 AM.

[Snowhawk]

Yes please, I like to see my Hellbringer with jump jets....

[Karmen Baric]

Ace Selin, on 01 April 2016 - 12:59 AM, said:

So all IS Mechs can mount any number of Jump Jets. Great Idea!

Yeah if all Clan mecha can have JJ then all IS mecha should have JJ, only fair.