34 replies to this topic

[MeiSooHaityu]

No, just not a good idea.

In a pure combat game like we have, limiting what lighter mechs can carry vs what heavier mechs can carry just nerfs lighter chassis and buffs heavier platforms.

[Hit the Deck]

MeiSooHaityu, on 06 July 2015 - 11:11 AM, said:

No, just not a good idea.

In a pure combat game like we have, limiting what lighter mechs can carry vs what heavier mechs can carry just nerfs lighter chassis and buffs heavier platforms.

Just imagine if MWO was a different game!

Edited by Hit the Deck, 06 July 2015 - 11:16 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I can't support this for 2 reasons:

1. There already are light Mechs that are designed to carry heavy weapons (UR60L is a 30-ton Mech with AC/20, Hollander with Gauss, Panthers with PPCs, etc.) So there's little reason to block lights from carrying big guns
2. If my Assault Mech can mount a small pulse laser, then there's no reason why my technician can't just mount a smaller laser if available...

[MeiSooHaityu]

Hit the Deck, on 06 July 2015 - 11:15 AM, said:

Just imagine if MWO was a different game!

Its not though. It never really was...not really.

MechWarrior has always been a race to the Assault mech, nothing more involved and nothing less (especially the Mercenary titles which this game resembles the most). MechWarrior has never found a way to make lighter mechs important (mostly because what drove lighter mech in a BT universe was cost and availability). Games like MechWarrior 2 had to have an imaginary Keshik force you to take a lighter mech. It wasn't because a lighter machine was advantageous, but instead because the Keshik said so.

I'd like to imagine the game being more than that, but no title before MWO ever got it right either :/

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 06 July 2015 - 11:28 AM.

[martian]

Hit the Deck, on 06 July 2015 - 10:51 AM, said:

But we have fluff that says that certain weapons, like Gauss, need special treatment to be mounted on 'Mechs (although perhaps this fluff doesn't extend to the game itself). If we had recoil mechanics in this game, it would be cool to see that the Hollander can fire his Gauss more "smoothly" compared to the other 'Mechs.

The Hollander is just one special example of a 'Mech where its designers wanted to make the 'Mech/weapon combo even more optimised.

There are dozens of Gauss Rifle equipped 'Mechs in BattleTech universe that can carry Gauss Rifles very effectively even without any special treatment. Even the tiny Uller has got two alternate configurations with Gauss Rifle.

Jazzbandit1313, on 06 July 2015 - 10:53 AM, said:

Recoil Ples PGI. It's simple physics that a low-mounted AC/20 in a 100 ton Atlas torso would have less of a recoil effect than an top heavy high shoulder-mounted AC/20 in a 55 ton lolohawk.

Check the Hunchback. Very effective 'Mech in BattleTech universe - and it's armed exactly with that "top heavy high shoulder-mounted AC/20". That's because recoil depends on more factors than just on the 'Mech's weight.

[Rampancy]

MeiSooHaityu, on 06 July 2015 - 11:26 AM, said:

Its not though. It never really was...not really.

MechWarrior has always been a race to the Assault mech, nothing more involved and nothing less (especially the Mercenary titles which this game resembles the most). MechWarrior has never found a way to make lighter mechs important (mostly because what drove lighter mech in a BT universe was cost and availability). Games like MechWarrior 2 had to have an imaginary Keshik force you to take a lighter mech. It wasn't because a lighter machine was advantageous, but instead because the Keshik said so.

I'd like to imagine the game being more than that, but no title before MWO ever got it right either :/

To be frank, MWO has done the best job of weight class-balancing to date. Lights are competitive on the field of battle, quirks have made many of the medium chassis into good performers, and heavy mechs and assault mechs each have their own distinct roles that overlap some in the outliers of each chassis.

[MeiSooHaityu]

RampancyTW, on 06 July 2015 - 11:32 AM, said:

To be frank, MWO has done the best job of weight class-balancing to date. Lights are competitive on the field of battle, quirks have made many of the medium chassis into good performers, and heavy mechs and assault mechs each have their own distinct roles that overlap some in the outliers of each chassis.

I agree 100%. It isn't perfect by a long shot, but it is the best attempt I've seen. It has to be in a F2P title where PGI wants to sell mechs of all sizes.

Adding things like weight class restricted weapons would throw that out the window. It would buff heavier chassis and nerf lighter chassis. That would cause all sorts of problems

[martian]

MeiSooHaityu, on 06 July 2015 - 11:26 AM, said:

Its not though. It never really was...not really.

MechWarrior has always been a race to the Assault mech, nothing more involved and nothing less (especially the Mercenary titles which this game resembles the most). MechWarrior has never found a way to make lighter mechs important (mostly because what drove lighter mech in a BT universe was cost and availability). Games like MechWarrior 2 had to have an imaginary Keshik force you to take a lighter mech. It wasn't because a lighter machine was advantageous, but instead because the Keshik said so.

I'd like to imagine the game being more than that, but no title before MWO ever got it right either :/

The majority of older MechWarrior titles required the player to face more and more enemy 'Mechs, so the logical answer was to take heavier and heavier machines ...

However, there were some exceptions. If you remember MechWarrior 4: Mercenaries, there were two missions (Stealth and Night Op) when light 'Mechs were really the best choice.

Or Stranglehold from MechWarrior 4: Black Knight.

[Gyrok]

FupDup, on 06 July 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

No.

I could kinda understand a sized-hardpoint system (especially for the second-line Clan Battlemechs) if you really had to, but class-restricted guns are an instant "lolno" in Battletech.

This.

[Hit the Deck]

martian, on 06 July 2015 - 11:28 AM, said:

The Hollander is just one special example of a 'Mech where its designers wanted to make the 'Mech/weapon combo even more optimised.

There are dozens of Gauss Rifle equipped 'Mechs in BattleTech universe that can carry Gauss Rifles very effectively even without any special treatment. Even the tiny Uller has got two alternate configurations with Gauss Rifle.
....

Hmm you are right about the Kit Fox but there's this interesting tidbit I found on sarna:

Quote

• Hollander - Impressed by the Uller-A, the Federated Commonwealth designed its own light mech built around a Gauss Rifle.

#clansmight

[MeiSooHaityu]

martian, on 06 July 2015 - 11:47 AM, said:

The majority of older MechWarrior titles required the player to face more and more enemy 'Mechs, so the logical answer was to take heavier and heavier machines ...

However, there were some exceptions. If you remember MechWarrior 4: Mercenaries, there were two missions (Stealth and Night Op) when light 'Mechs were really the best choice.

Or Stranglehold from MechWarrior 4: Black Knight.

First of all, not entirely. It wasn't always about facing more mechs, but often the enemy ran heavier mechs too (plus a lot of tanks and copters for busy work/fodder to distract you from the big guys). If this game played similar, everyone would take progressively bigger mechs till most would run assaults and the new guy with his light would get smashed and he'd leave. It still happens now, but at least with quirks and some other assists, a light can technically compete and contribute.

Secondly, yea those old games did try for 1 or 2 missions, but they were crap. You didn't really need a light mech for scouting. A light mech didn't posses anything a heavier mech didn't have. Instead you needed a light because the game mission was scripted for you to get caught and you needed something fast enough to get away. If you could actually avoid patrols and get in and out without having to get caught, you could have done that mission with an assault :/

I guess they get an A for effort though.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 06 July 2015 - 12:02 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

I really just want some form of recoil to offset the cheese from Cheesy Dragons and Direcheese. If a Dragon or Dire can rock the **** out of my cockpit, he should have some form of recoil to deal with. You know, Newtonian physics and all.

[Twilight Fenrir]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 06 July 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:

I really just want some form of recoil to offset the cheese from Cheesy Dragons and Direcheese. If a Dragon or Dire can rock the **** out of my cockpit, he should have some form of recoil to deal with. You know, Newtonian physics and all.

That would depend on the weapons design, and its location... An arm mounted cannon would have most/all of its energy absorbed by the elbow and shoulder. Torso, perhaps not so much, but if the weapons are soft-mounted, with some sort of shock absorbance, it would be a non issue as well... Since the torso weapons converge at variable distances, they must not be rigidly mounted, as they pivot slightly to allow for aiming. The same mechanism would likely be designed to absorb recoil energy, and reduce its effects upon the chassis.

Also, the mech doing the shooting KNOWS it's doing the shooting, other systems can kick in to fight the recoil and maintain balance. Where as the mech being shot has no knowledge or ability to anticipate.

Edited by Twilight Fenrir, 06 July 2015 - 07:24 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Twilight Fenrir, on 06 July 2015 - 07:22 PM, said:

That would depend on the weapons design, and its location... An arm mounted cannon would have most/all of its energy absorbed by the elbow and shoulder. Torso, perhaps not so much, but if the weapons are soft-mounted, with some sort of shock absorbance, it would be a non issue as well... Since the torso weapons converge at variable distances, they must not be rigidly mounted, as they pivot slightly to allow for aiming. The same mechanism would likely be designed to absorb recoil energy, and reduce its effects upon the chassis.

Also, the mech doing the shooting KNOWS it's doing the shooting, other systems can kick in to fight the recoil and maintain balance. Where as the mech being shot has no knowledge or ability to anticipate.

There's still recoil that affects point of aim, for a whale or dragon to be able to dump round after round into the target while chewing a hole in the same spot and scrambling the pilot isn't even remotely balanced. Especially a walking Battery like the Cheesewhale.

[Black Ivan]

The idea ever was to add hard point sizes to every mech and categorize into, small, medium, large and very weapons