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The Confederate Flag Is Finally Taken Down


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#21 Kain Demos

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 08:19 PM

View PostMister Blastman, on 10 July 2015 - 01:28 PM, said:


And rightly so it stood for secession. I'm proud they had the courage to stand up and fight for what they believed in.


Sadly I don't believe the citizens of this country have the intestinal fortitude to take this kind of a stand ever again. I see videos of abuse of power by state officials popping up by the dozens and a few people are speaking out but nothing is really being done.

#22 Mister Blastman

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 08:22 PM

View PostMarack Drock, on 10 July 2015 - 08:20 PM, said:

The flag does nothing to help the ignorant become educated though... It does nothing to educate and does nothing to help the ignorant. All it does is stands as a way to make the ignorant mad. That's it. If you want to educate them, then set up a memorial plack with the history of the Confederates and Union on it in great detail so they can be educated as to why it is there. Otherwise the flag does absolutely nothing to help your point.


Burying the flag in a plaque does little to preserve it, either. By keeping the flag flying high and proud, it will continually serve as a talking point for young and old alike to remind them of the truth.

I, along with the rest of us, should not care at all if the ignorant get mad. No, sorry, scratch that--we should. Because if we are making the ignorant mad, we are doing something right. We are giving them the opportunity to have a productive discussion about the truth they do not understand.

#23 Nightmare1

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 08:31 PM

View PostMister Blastman, on 10 July 2015 - 08:15 PM, said:


I guess you missed my previous post. You're feel to read up and see what I wrote.

Now, on to your other point... "State's right to make people slaves" ...

Yes, /some/ of the states mentioned slaves in the articles of secession, but not all. But make no mistake, this was /not/ the central issue. The issue was about States' rights and Federal tyranny. The Constitution clearly enumerates State powers. The Federal Government was and still /is/ overstepping those bounds.

You see, there were plenty of other rights at stake beyond slavery and only now, after over a hundred and fifty years are we seeing the result of that. States are repeatedly being denied their rights guaranteed under the Constitution. If we simply bow to ignorance and re-write history to make the war about Slaves (it wasn't), we perpetuate the lie.

Unfortunately, the truth is far more important to preserve than keeping the ignorant from being offended.



Swearing only makes you look younger and does little to help your argument.

History is as factual as you strive to preserve it. If you do things such as perpetuate the lie that the Confederate Flag represents slavery, eventually the history books will reflect that and future generations will believe the lie and teach it to their children. It is our responsibility to make sure the truth lives on from one generation to the next to protect them from things that might eventually hurt them.


Another good post.

...And if I recall, Marack is just a highschooler, so he doesn't know much aside from what he's been fed in the public schools. Considering the state of the public education system, it's hard to take anything that it teaches seriously.


View PostMarack Drock, on 10 July 2015 - 08:20 PM, said:

The flag does nothing to help the ignorant become educated though... It does nothing to educate and does nothing to help the ignorant. All it does is stands as a way to make the ignorant mad. That's it. If you want to educate them, then set up a memorial plack with the history of the Confederates and Union on it in great detail so they can be educated as to why it is there. Otherwise the flag does absolutely nothing to help your point.


That is a naive view. By this logic, all things that make people mad should be removed from society and replaced with plaques.

#24 Valar13

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 08:47 PM

View PostMister Blastman, on 10 July 2015 - 01:28 PM, said:


And rightly so it stood for secession. I'm proud they had the courage to stand up and fight for what they believed in.

Slavery?

Not something I'd be proud of, tbh.

View PostMister Blastman, on 10 July 2015 - 06:37 PM, said:


Slavery was and always is a bad thing. But make no mistake, the war was first and foremost over State rights and tyranny. Don't get lost in textbooks and movies that try to re-write history into something that it wasn't.

Think what you will. The flag stands for what it did at the time, not what people want to make it out to be now.

Which is funny, because the documents outlining the reasons for secession make it pretty clear that the limitations put on slavery were about 90% of the impetus.

#25 Valar13

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 08:51 PM

It's not even up for debate, folks.

http://www.civilwar....www.google.com/

Seriously. CTRL+F "slave"

83 results.

#26 Mister Blastman

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 09:04 PM

View PostMarack Drock, on 10 July 2015 - 08:28 PM, said:

Yup and about 50 to 55% of all history books say it represented slavery, and any kind of history preserved from the time because the only history that was written that survived pretty much said that the flag stood for slavery. Its all perception. Mainly because History was written by the victors. That is how it is. It is BIASED.

Keeping the flag standing high doesn't educate anyone nor does it help the problem. If you want to help the problem get fixed then do something about it. This issue has been around for years and won't be fixed by flying the flag higher or taking it down. Educate them or step away and let what happens happen. The ignorant are just as ignorant as you are. They were taught by their daddies and grand daddies about this little bit of history and now they think they are right. Same as you. Same as the history books. Its all biased in someone's favor. Always. History is barely all known fact. Barely at all. Its a lot of guessing and this is no exception. Its all biased.


I'm not sure if you're directly calling me ignorant or your improperly using "you" and "your." There's a reason we avoid using these terms in prose for a variety of reasons. They can mislead the true context so for that, I'm asking for clarification.

History, just like everything else, must be interpreted from multiple sources. I'm sure you know that, right? A single source represents the truth not. Through analysis of multiple sources we can generally arrive at the truth unless... as you suggested earlier, we wash it because of the angry and offended.

So taking the flag down does no good. Nor does folding to the outcry. It should fly high as a reminder of the War, its cost and true State rights. This is especially important now as so few Americans truly understand what State rights are. Many would be happy with completely re-writing the Constitution. That is dangerous.

View PostValar13, on 10 July 2015 - 08:47 PM, said:

Slavery?

Not something I'd be proud of, tbh.


I never said it was. Read the rest of my posts please.

I'm proud of our Constitution and States' rights.

#27 Tesunie

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 10:54 PM

View PostValar13, on 10 July 2015 - 08:51 PM, said:

It's not even up for debate, folks.

http://www.civilwar....www.google.com/

Seriously. CTRL+F "slave"

83 results.


If I may interject, how many of those said letters also mention Constitution and rights violation? (Not number of times the words were used in the entire document, but how many of the letters say its about that.)

Yes. Slavery was an issue for the topic. But it wasn't the only thing it was about. Read the documents in an open minded manner. To give in points, Mississippi: "...none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun" They literally thought (at that time at least) that if any other 'race' tried to work the fields, that they would die from sun exposure. And that only the "Black Race" could survive such exposure.

Get into their mindset, as well as that of the rest of the world and the relatively recent past of the world at that time, especially about slavery. Back then, black people were considered a completely different race. They weren't even seen as human (of course, we know differently). They were considered a completely different race. Different like a horse to a donkey. (If I'm correct...) They even had laws against whites and blacks from breeding, considering it on the level of a "human" (white person for the record by their accounts) preforming sex with a cow. It was considered immoral to even see them in that kind of concept.


Then, if you continue reading: "These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization." They seriously thought their entire civilization was at risk. Looking at possible destruction, and seeing it as a breach of their Constitutional rights (which is mentioned as well in their article) to block a state from being able to choose for itself if it wanted to be a free or a slave state.

"...and promotes insurrection and incendiarism in our midst." They were also afraid of freed slaves who were given the same rights as a white "human" to rebel, take all their jobs, and bankrupt them. All legitimate fears, to them.


Georgia: "For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property, and by the use of their power in the Federal Government have striven to deprive us of an equal enjoyment of the common Territories of the Republic." They tried to peacefully talk it out for ten years. I wouldn't call them a succession group bent on destroying the Federal Government after trying to peacefully solve their problems..

South Carolina: "...declared that the frequent violations of the Constitution of the United States, by the Federal Government, and its encroachments upon the reserved rights of the States, fully justified this State in then withdrawing from the Federal Union..." They saw it as a breach of their rights as a state. Even though the topic was Slavery, their issue was state rights and how much are their rights in relation to the Federal Government. They didn't surprise the Union with attacks. They withdrew from the Union first. The Union didn't want that to happen (and so did much of the South as well which is why they waited so long before leaving). By all accounts, the Confederate States actually pursued their own Constitutional Rights to leave the Union as a whole.



On the other side, as I've stated before that I don't disagree to some extent about the Confederate flag, it technically was a breach of the Constitution to even have Slavery at all, as it breached the slaves rights granted to them by that very same Constitution. However, for that to actually apply, the slaves had to be seen as Human first. I do agree that there is a taint of slavery about the flag, but I can't agree that it's what the flag stands for either. I can see it's removal from government buildings (which was all that was suppose to be done), but I don't believe it should be prohibited for sale or for public display, as that would infringe upon our constitutional rights of self expression (which like all rights extends until it infringes upon someone else's rights).

Makes me wonder, what would happen when the first actual sentient computer is created? Would it have rights under our laws? Or if we actually had an open alien visitation? Would the aliens have rights under our laws? Just like with slaves, it may become a point of contention amongst people. Is a computer a thing, even if it can think for itself? Does it have any rights, even though it isn't classified as a "living" being? Could it be punished for breaking a "human" law? Can it be owned, or can it own other things? Could it, say, run for President or have a job? What rights would it have?

#28 XxXAbsolutZeroXxX

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 11:50 PM

The issue here is the tendency people have to oversimplify history and misdefine it within absolutist black and white terms.

People oversimplify the confederate flag within absolute blanket terminology where the only thing the confederate flag represents is slavery. People oversimplify the american civil war within absolute blanket terminology where the only motivation the south had for warring with the north was slavery and nothing else.

The confederate flag and civil war aren't so simple nor black-and-white that you can define them in context to slavery and nothing else. Politics and war are never that simple.

Having the view that the Civl War was solely motivated by slavery is like having the view that the Iraq/Afghan war was solely motivated by nation building or liberating middle eastern citizens from oppressive regimes. Oil, war profiteering, gunboat diplomacy and many other variables do factor into the equation.

The media indoctrinates people into believing that complicated political issues like war, slavery and freedom can be dumbed down to a point where everything is black and white and there is only a single reason or motivation for everything. The general consensus isn't about educating or informing people as to the complexities or realities of history. Its about selling oversimplifed, black-and-white, views of history that are inaccurate.

#29 IraqiWalker

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 12:36 AM

View PostMarack Drock, on 10 July 2015 - 05:36 PM, said:

Nice we found a racist. You support everything that flag stood for including slavery and all. Good to know racist.


Well that went full throttle very fast. I wouldn't say that Blastman is racist.

View PostNightmare1, on 10 July 2015 - 07:28 PM, said:

The secessionist movement and States' Rights were tied together. The States themselves had the Constitutional right to secede. The North just wouldn't let them.


That still doesn't meant it wasn't treason.

View PostI Zeratul I, on 10 July 2015 - 11:50 PM, said:

The issue here is the tendency people have to oversimplify history and misdefine it within absolutist black and white terms.

People oversimplify the confederate flag within absolute blanket terminology where the only thing the confederate flag represents is slavery. People oversimplify the american civil war within absolute blanket terminology where the only motivation the south had for warring with the north was slavery and nothing else.

The confederate flag and civil war aren't so simple nor black-and-white that you can define them in context to slavery and nothing else. Politics and war are never that simple.

Having the view that the Civl War was solely motivated by slavery is like having the view that the Iraq/Afghan war was solely motivated by nation building or liberating middle eastern citizens from oppressive regimes. Oil, war profiteering, gunboat diplomacy and many other variables do factor into the equation.

The media indoctrinates people into believing that complicated political issues like war, slavery and freedom can be dumbed down to a point where everything is black and white and there is only a single reason or motivation for everything. The general consensus isn't about educating or informing people as to the complexities or realities of history. Its about selling oversimplifed, black-and-white, views of history that are inaccurate.


Except this ISN'T the confederate flag. This flag was literally flown by Robert E. Lee's forces, and then by every white supremacist in support of segregation.

Look, it's really simple. This battle flag faded from history after the end of the civil war. It didn't resurface until white supremacist movements used it again. The zenith of it's spread was during the 40s, 50s, and 60s. Flown by everyone that supported segregation, and keeping non-whites as second class citizens, if at all.

Let's look at it this way: 25% of the reason it exists, is states rights. The rest is all bad. So no, this flag should be left in museums. Not flown over state capitols of the very nation it betrayed.

#30 Valar13

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 03:38 AM

View PostMarack Drock, on 10 July 2015 - 08:55 PM, said:

No sense dude. Nightmare will bring his own sources, and so will Blastman. No two sources will add up in the end. Its going to have problems and differences. The reason being is because no one knows the whole truth.

Instead of arguing over the past, maybe we should find a way to make this flag mean something different. You know it may not be that people are ignorant Nightmare and Blasterman. It may just be because they still see it that way. Maybe its time we stopped sitting here arguing with our thumbs up our butts, and tried to make this flag mean something to those people other than slavery (and it DID represent slavery at one time. That was one of the many things it represented other than state's rights).

Mine are primary sources: the secessionist states' own words. Hard to argue with that.

View PostTesunie, on 10 July 2015 - 10:54 PM, said:

Get into their mindset, as well as that of the rest of the world and the relatively recent past of the world at that time, especially about slavery. Back then, black people were considered a completely different race. They weren't even seen as human (of course, we know differently). They were considered a completely different race. Different like a horse to a donkey. (If I'm correct...) They even had laws against whites and blacks from breeding, considering it on the level of a "human" (white person for the record by their accounts) preforming sex with a cow. It was considered immoral to even see them in that kind of concept.


You just pulled a "Yeah, X, but Y" on slavery. I get to ignore everything else you said by the rules of common sense.

View PostTesunie, on 10 July 2015 - 10:54 PM, said:

but I don't believe it should be prohibited for sale or for public display,

Red herring. No one ever in the history of ever said it should be, and if they did they were wrong. It was never a part of the actual public policy debate, though.

View PostIraqiWalker, on 11 July 2015 - 12:36 AM, said:


Let's look at it this way: 25% of the reason it exists, is states rights. The rest is all bad. So no, this flag should be left in museums. Not flown over state capitols of the very nation it betrayed.

And also 100% of the "states' rights" it represented were slavery so even on that count it's sh*t.

Edited by Valar13, 11 July 2015 - 03:39 AM.


#31 MarineTech

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 04:45 AM

What's up in here?

Posted Image

Ohhhhhhhhhh

Flags

You're in K-Town now. The birds only have one flag.

Posted Image



#32 Tesunie

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 05:26 AM

View PostIraqiWalker, on 11 July 2015 - 12:36 AM, said:

Not flown over state capitols of the very nation...


This I completely agree with.

View PostValar13, on 11 July 2015 - 03:38 AM, said:

You just pulled a "Yeah, X, but Y" on slavery. I get to ignore everything else you said by the rules of common sense.


Red herring. No one ever in the history of ever said it should be, and if they did they were wrong. It was never a part of the actual public policy debate, though.


So, you can arbitrarily ignore everything I say because I'm not close minded and can see each side of the debate, and can understand the stance and considerations of the people making the decisions? (AKA: "Black Race" were not considered humans, but property?)


Not saying it is, but a lot of people are arguing that it should be taken down and left in museums, and some people think it should never be sold to the public. It seems to be happening, rather it's what was debated about or not.

PS: Trolls tend to like their own posts... oh wait. You liked your own post. Does this mean I can ignore everything you post by the laws of common sense, because you must be a troll?

#33 IraqiWalker

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 05:37 AM

View PostTesunie, on 11 July 2015 - 05:26 AM, said:

This I completely agree with.


That's the main thrust of my viewpoint.

#34 MarineTech

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 05:42 AM

PANTS!!!!

Getcher official K-Town bird pants heeeyaaahhhhh

Posted Image

Guaronnnnteeed to help protect from butthurt.

And why not have a taco while you

enjoy that protection.

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#35 IraqiWalker

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 06:13 AM

View PostMarineTech, on 11 July 2015 - 05:42 AM, said:

PANTS!!!!

Getcher official K-Town bird pants heeeyaaahhhhh

Posted Image



Posted Image

#36 MarineTech

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 06:22 AM

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