42 replies to this topic

[TheArisen]

What if there was a CoF only while you were in the air? If implemented, we could get good JJs again without needing to worry about (group) poptarting becoming dominant again.

[Mystere]

Why not be consistent and have CoF during any movement? Why should shooting while jumping be a special case?

Edited by Mystere, 11 July 2015 - 06:29 PM.

[Drasari]

How about no cone of fire at all. Having a chance to hit while moving would make this game so far from MW what I would gladly leave my investment behind and move on.

If damage is an issue fix that.

[Lostdragon]

I would not be opposed to reticle bloom when moving or jumping or hot.

[El Bandito]

Drasari, on 11 July 2015 - 06:29 PM, said:

How about no cone of fire at all. Having a chance to hit while moving would make this game so far from MW what I would gladly leave my investment behind and move on.

If damage is an issue fix that.

This attitude is partly the reason why we can't have a good PPC.

Mystere, on 11 July 2015 - 06:26 PM, said:

Why not be consistent and have CoF during any movement? Why should shooting while jumping be a special case?

Even better. This will drastically increase TTK, which is good for the game. Lights will benefit, as they can stop in a dime much faster than heavier mechs.

Edited by El Bandito, 11 July 2015 - 07:43 PM.

[Mystere]

Drasari, on 11 July 2015 - 06:29 PM, said:

How about no cone of fire at all. Having a chance to hit while moving would make this game so far from MW what I would gladly leave my investment behind and move on.

If damage is an issue fix that.

Please explain for everyone why a CoF/reticle bloom implemented as a normal distribution is unacceptable. Just use logic and science though in your explanation.

Let me start by pointing you to this. This is one way ballistics are modeled.

Edited by Mystere, 11 July 2015 - 08:10 PM.

[Trev Firestorm]

Mystere, on 11 July 2015 - 07:40 PM, said:

Please explain for everyone why a CoF/reticle bloom implemented as a normal distribution is unacceptable. Just use logic and science though in your explanation. Let me start by pointing you to this. This is one way ballistics are modeled.

While I think CoF could be helpful I struggle workout how/why it would make any sense for lasers unfortunately, especially with the sort of beam duration we have... And if they are exempt we basically get even more lazorvomit4life.

[Drasari]

El Bandito, on 11 July 2015 - 07:34 PM, said:

This attitude is partly the reason why we can't have a good PPC.




Even better. This will drastically increase TTK, which is good for the game. Lights will benefit, as they can stop in a dime much faster than heavier mechs.

I do not agree with you at all. Sorry. You can chalk it up to whatever you like, I think COF is a bad bad bad idea.

I do not need randomness added to my ability to hit moving Mechs whilst moving myself. Now some form of shake when running hot I am OK with.

[Mystere]

Trev Firestorm, on 11 July 2015 - 08:13 PM, said:

While I think CoF could be helpful I struggle workout how/why it would make any sense for lasers unfortunately, especially with the sort of beam duration we have... And if they are exempt we basically get even more lazorvomit4life.

I have two concepts for you: mechanical slop and convergence.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Drasari, on 11 July 2015 - 06:29 PM, said:

How about no cone of fire at all. Having a chance to hit while moving would make this game so far from MW what I would gladly leave my investment behind and move on.

If damage is an issue fix that.

LOL, thats exactly what a CoF would do. WHo said it had to be a drastic COF like BF3 Machineguns or something? Just enough to deviate large alphas of like 6 guns and stuff. Chain fire should incur a much smaller CoF penalty.

BUt no, no we should not start magically dropping damage on all guns. Maybe some like the Gauss Rifle, maybe drop it to like 12 or something, then remove its charge up or something....

[LordKnightFandragon]

Trev Firestorm, on 11 July 2015 - 08:13 PM, said:

While I think CoF could be helpful I struggle workout how/why it would make any sense for lasers unfortunately, especially with the sort of beam duration we have... And if they are exempt we basically get even more lazorvomit4life.

It works for lasers because when your moving around, your guns are jittering an jumping around just enough to ensure your guns would not be aiming dead center. And, despite the mech's best efforts, your guns are not aiming dead center not moving at all like the game would have you thinking. I mean, have you watched t he mech running in 3PV? your guns might not be moving that much, but any slight deviation would throw off the aim.

So, yes, a slight CoF bloom while moving would be interesting actually.

[TheArisen]

Mystere, on 11 July 2015 - 06:26 PM, said:

Why not be consistent and have CoF during any movement? Why should shooting while jumping be a special case?

A mech would have stabilizrs that could keep their arms, etc steady but, it'd be even more difficult to do so whilst in air. I think that's pretty consistent.

[TheArisen]

Currently existing tanks can keep their gun steady while moving. I'm pretty sure a mech centuries more advanced would be able to keep it's weapons steady while moving.

[One Medic Army]

Drasari, on 11 July 2015 - 06:29 PM, said:

How about no cone of fire at all. Having a chance to hit while moving would make this game so far from MW what I would gladly leave my investment behind and move on.

If damage is an issue fix that.

Drasari, on 11 July 2015 - 08:31 PM, said:

I do not agree with you at all. Sorry. You can chalk it up to whatever you like, I think COF is a bad bad bad idea.

I do not need randomness added to my ability to hit moving Mechs whilst moving myself. Now some form of shake when running hot I am OK with.

You know, the CoF group could be the size of a medium's torso at weapon range. At that point so long as you're not firing at long range, or at small targets (who need all the help they can get right now), you would hit somewhere on a mech given you aim center of mass. All the CoF would do is prevent you directing fire at a specific torso at long ranges.

Now we could even get fancy and have the CoF be dynamic by movement speed, terrain, heat, and escalating recoil penalties. Starting from perfect accuracy (or very small CoF) you could be quite accurate with a first shot, and get progressively more inaccurate. To maintain perfect accuracy, just do what people in the real world do: fire single, well aimed shots, while stationary. Not running around at full speed and jumping while rapid-firing 6 machine guns.

TheArisen, on 11 July 2015 - 10:17 PM, said:

Currently existing tanks can keep their gun steady while moving. I'm pretty sure a mech centuries more advanced would be able to keep it's weapons steady while moving.

You'd think that AP ammo wouldn't be lostech, but it is.

Also, I (and many others) are plenty able to set aside realism (giant robots with realism, HAH!) for better gameplay.

There's a reason why almost every single shooter in the last decade has had a CoF/recoil mechanic.

[MoonUnitBeta]

To all the people who want COF:

Please, tell me how lasers are going to work while on the move?
Same a JJ's that go "pew" and stay stuck aiming in one spot, or ones that go "pew" and whirl around inside the COF.
Because it seems like when people talk about CoF, they're only thinking about AC's and PPC's. Weapons that shoot like other FPS. Except, however, we have these laser things. So please, fight amongst yourself about how you're going to handle laser burn duration, especially when decelerating/accelerating.

I'm opposed to COF.

How about we implement a system that works with Mechwarrior and makes sense. Like one that tells you exactly where you're aiming *cough* reticle sway *cough*.
And no, they're NOT the same thing. One is proper implementation, the other is half assed BS that we've been getting the whole time, and is used for balancing twitch/high ROF games, such as twirling little men with assault rifles. Let's do it correctly, shall we?

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 11 July 2015 - 10:36 PM.

[SmoothCriminal]

My main concern is that it would promote camping/defensive gameplay further - as the mech moving will be at a considerable disadvantage to the stationary mech....

Edited by SmoothCriminal, 11 July 2015 - 10:34 PM.

[One Medic Army]

MoonUnitBeta, on 11 July 2015 - 10:30 PM, said:

To all the people who want COF:

Please, tell me how lasers are going to work while on the move?
Same a JJ's that go "pew" and stay stuck aiming in one spot, or ones that go "pew" and whirl around inside the COF.

I'm opposed to COF.
Implement a system that works with Mechwarrior and makes sense. Like one that tells you exactly where you're aiming *cough* reticle sway *cough*.

Similar to how it works in other games? You fire a weapon, the trajectory deviates from the reticule position by a random angle.

For lasers they could switch them to firing several pulses (like clan Acs), or just give the fire direction a random drift within the CoF. Honestly if they implemented individual deviation per weapon (or perhaps per section with weapons mounted, thus the 6E hunch on a Hunch-P would all hit the same spot) they could speed up the burn times significantly, though having longer burn would let the player manually correct if they were only firing 1 laser (or weapons from one section).

TT effectively had random hit locations, and it's what drove a lot of the balancing, like SRMs and MGs vs AC/20s (more concentrated dmg because only 1 hit location roll on the 20). Heck, the armor/structure distribution we have on our mechs is based on the random hit location chart.

[MoonUnitBeta]

One Medic Army, on 11 July 2015 - 10:36 PM, said:

Similar to how it works in other games? You fire a weapon, the trajectory deviates from the reticule position by a random angle.

TT effectively had random hit locations, and it's what drove a lot of the balancing, like SRMs and MGs vs AC/20s (more concentrated dmg because only 1 hit location roll on the 20).

Yeah that random thing is the half assed BS that I'm talking about.
So why exactly does it have to be random? Why do we have to NOT know where our arms are pointing? Sure, move our aim around if you want, but why does it have to be a guessing game? Right. there's no point. Because our mechs are still capable of telling us where its arms are pointing.

And wait, show me the dice we're rolling in MWO. C'mon, bringing up TT has been a beaten to death horse by now. You should know better.
The only dice in MWO is UAC jam, and crit chances/ammo explosions. You know, things you can't control yourself. Like your heart beating. By your logic, if we use dice to deal damage in TT and we flip the argument, then using darts to deal damage instead would be the same thing, right? Please stop this madness, and let TT be its own game, and let MWO be its own game. Both games have their own way of dealing damage. And just because TT uses dice, and uses randomness as a means of balance, that doesn't mean it works for MWO.


On the topic of lasers, you do know that you're now altering a weapon that has operated much the same that date back many years just so that it can be used with your new COF feature? Isn't this the tell tail signs of poor design? Is this how things worked in TT? Hehe, ok I admit I was being facetious there.
But really, we don't need to redesign the game just so we can wrap around this one feature that's inherently flawed for the game.

[Mystere]

TheArisen, on 11 July 2015 - 10:08 PM, said:

A mech would have stabilizrs that could keep their arms, etc steady but, it'd be even more difficult to do so whilst in air. I think that's pretty consistent.

What's stopping those stabilizers from working while airborne as opposed to running at full speed via rough terrain?

Edited by Mystere, 11 July 2015 - 10:58 PM.

[Trev Firestorm]

MoonUnitBeta, on 11 July 2015 - 10:30 PM, said:

To all the people who want COF:

Please, tell me how lasers are going to work while on the move?
Same a JJ's that go "pew" and stay stuck aiming in one spot, or ones that go "pew" and whirl around inside the COF.
Because it seems like when people talk about CoF, they're only thinking about AC's and PPC's. Weapons that shoot like other FPS. Except, however, we have these laser things. So please, fight amongst yourself about how you're going to handle laser burn duration, especially when decelerating/accelerating.

Thinking on it some, why not have it start at its random not exactly center then track to center during its duration... it'd give that convergence elite level skill a purpose atleast...