66 replies to this topic

[Lightfoot]

They don't, they fall to the ground last I checked.

[Nightshade24]

Night Thastus, on 11 July 2015 - 04:47 PM, said:

It doesn't defy gravity, it's simply that it's velocity, narrow profile and razor-sharp tip lead the rounds to go extremely far before dipping down. For the sake of this game, that's beyond the distance of the map.

To remind you, those rounds are shot out of gigantic magnets the size of skyscrapers that are powered by a nuclear fusion engine.
So yeah, powerful stuff.

Size of sky scrapers? you must have very small sky scrappers... because some grain silos at farms are bigger then most mechs in BT....

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

Because real world and physics doesn't apply to Battletech or Mechwarrior.

Ever ask yourself how a PGI Jenner doesn't kill the pilot when it torso twists?

or

How the ammo moves up through the toes, joints, endosteel skeleton and myomers through the reactor and internal structures and into the missile launchers or guns?

[Nightshade24]

Mister D, on 11 July 2015 - 07:28 PM, said:

Isn't that newton's law?

Gauss would have the same ballistic properties as anything of equal mass and still be subject to gravity. right?
Its not creating its own lift and obviously its quite heavy, so it should drop at the same rate traveling forward as if an object of equal mass just fell straight down?

Or am I talking out of my ass?

Yes, but the projectile of the Gauss is going so fast, it's less noticeable.
I tried to pull up a graph, but sadly english being my 3rd language. All I got is basically anything BESIDES the graph I am looking for. But in short. It looks like it's going in a more 'straight' line then a lower velocity object.

It will eventually start to get noticeable, but that will be far outside MW: O's map Adding physics in just for a weapon that can be barely noticeable for a projectile fired from 1 enemy spawn to another is pointless,

It is even more pointless that Gauss rifle wouldn't even do damage at that range. In all realism, a gauss rifle shell would have dropped only a inch or a few centimeters at the normal engagement ranges in MW: O, that is so barely noticeable that a head shot will still be a head shot and that hitting a CT will always be hitting the CT.

[Nightshade24]

White Bear 84, on 11 July 2015 - 06:19 PM, said:

I mean, why do we even have bipedal robots when tanks would be more efficient...

-warning, wall'o'logic'that'is'actually'useless'information'and'theory

Eh... it makes sense... due to advancements in armour, angling your armour is no longer the king of the battlefield, thus tanks are slightly not as powerful as they could be. Can be more dynamic.

Due to the supply and demand, as well as the research focus, advancements in bipedal mechanical vehicles were being produced as they can handle a bit more terrain then tanks (ie look at viridian bog, I do not think submarine tanks will be that affective... especially if they are SPAA's) and also they can interact with the environment more, ie grabbing rubble, cargo, 'weapons', etc. Making it ideal for say search and resque, especially after a natural disaster. (This is also 1 reason why there is LOTS of industrial mechs and agricultural mechs)

Tanks however still are at equals to the mech and often carry more firepower then the other 'common' or equally priced battlemech, ie Demolisher tank (2 AC 20's) or the Demolisher II tank that has a UAC 20 and a LBX 20.

60 damage for a tank? For you guys out there, MW: O doubled all the armour, 60 damage is enough to 1 shot kill most normal atlas or king crabs out there OR to kill 3 seperate light mechs in 1 load.



HOWEVER due to the technical and mechanical apocalypse the inner sphere suffered when the SLDF left and after they were at war with technology, Things went scarce, and this is why mechs are more of the power houses, because there were more fancy stuff on the battlemechs then tanks. And a Mech can peform more roles then a tank.



However tanks didn't die out at all, they simply exploded in numbers, at least 2/3rds of the IS SYSTEMS are practically mech-less and only have tanks, hovercraft, and armored cars for ground def fence while the ones with mechs often only have a hand ful of mechs to barely make a lance or 2.

Look at the operational history of the king crab for eg. It's bad ass, as powerful as a tank at the era, but due to how expensive and rare it is, it is basicly a trophy and never sees combat...

Demolisher? SRM carriers? bulldogs? Condors? THEY ARE EVERYWHERE.




"Why is this game so heavy about mechs though?" we are sitted in the seat of a mechwarrior, hence the name of this game franchise. this game features us typically as a merc unit with battlemechs to go attack other mechs. We are just the 1% of the IS who can change our weapons and stuff let alone have a full company or regiment of mechs in our mech bays to a SINGLE PILOT.

So yea, Tanks are more practical so to say economically and firepower wise, but they have some terrain issues as well as the fact we have no game ever to feature them besides Mechwarrior Living legends.

Some people hope that when PGI gets big in the future, say 5-8 months. They possibly will make a game that will feature battletech ground forces (SPAA's, APC's, Tanks, LRM carriers, etc), aerospace fighters or atmospheric fighters and helicopters, and maybe even a BT themed space combat game with dropships and warships... I already want to command an overlord dropship...

This isn't unlikely at all, PGI already wanted to make a game called tranverse to test CW elements in it and make a space sim but due to the situation it wasn't successful. I can imagine PGI doing this and it would cross resources easily from both games... same sound effects, simular weapon models... etc... Tanks PGI will make for there tank game will also be the NPC tanks in MW: O, the same ai models can go in both games and so on and on and on.

(for those who will say PGI already said they will never do it- false, they said not at launch and not before CW is finished.)

[Nightshade24]

00ohDstruct, on 13 July 2015 - 03:42 AM, said:

Because real world and physics doesn't apply to Battletech or Mechwarrior.

Ever ask yourself how a PGI Jenner doesn't kill the pilot when it torso twists?

or

How the ammo moves up through the toes, joints, endosteel skeleton and myomers through the reactor and internal structures and into the missile launchers or guns?

Well they are not in the tows, they are basicly in your hip.

And when you look at tanks....
(1 example) you got ammo beside and under the DRIVER or the radio operator... behind you, beside you, near the back, near the breach, above you, etc.

Tanks irl actually have more odd placement of ammo then battlemechs in BT. I wish I can find a better EG but I know tanks out there with ammo as flooring practically and tanks with ammo so far forward you might as well go open your hatch and get it from the outside.


However speaking of how ammo travels... I love the Timberwolf "mad cats" ways to get ammo to the side torsos...

[Twilight Fenrir]

Zaccheus, on 11 July 2015 - 05:12 PM, said:

I think it's technically supposed to be traveling at near light speeds. All my battle tech lore though is derived from the video games so I'm not positive

The novels state the Gauss slug is 'hypersonic', which is in excess of mach 5.

Lostdragon, on 11 July 2015 - 05:19 PM, said:

The Navy already has the precursor to a real Gauss Rifle. It fire projectiles that can penetrate several inches of steel at mach 7 with an effective range of something like 13 nm. Projectile drop isn't really an issue at that velocity.

That is a railgun, the gauss rifle is a coil gun.... While they both use electricity in stupendous ammounts, they are fundamentally different mechanisms. Though, that railgun does have pretty much the exact specs of a BT Gauss rifle, which is pretty kool... (ignoring the ridiculous short range of thr BT cannon, but that's more do to firing computer limitations thn the weapons actual effectiveness)

On the OT, The gauss slug DOES drop. Try sniping on Alpine at 1500 meters, you have to aim over the head to hit enemy mechs in the torso. It takes the same amount of time for a bullet fired from an AC20 and a Gauss rifle to hit the ground if fired straight. The Guass slug just goes soo much further in that time.

Edited by Twilight Fenrir, 13 July 2015 - 06:37 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Twilight Fenrir, on 13 July 2015 - 06:30 AM, said:

The novels state the Gauss slug is 'hypersonic', which is in excess of mach 5.


That is a railgun, the gauss rifle is a coil gun.... While they both use electricity in stupendous ammounts, they are fundamentally different mechanisms.

depends on which model. The YLW was redesigned with a Von Ryan Rali Gun, according to the lore. Gauss rifle is just a generic catchall, in Btech, like Autocannon, that can cover a number of designs.

[Scratx]

lordtzar, on 11 July 2015 - 07:36 PM, said:

It still bothers me how good heat dissipation is in a vacuum in this and the previous games.

A lot.

You'd think regular heatsinks would be less efficient in vacuum, indeed, and the main advantage of LASER heat sinks is that they don't give a crap about atmosphere in return for pretty light shows.

Instead we get an ammo explosion modifier instead. Derp...

Well, it's not like we have laser heat sinks in MWO anyway. Most people would positively hate using mechs in crap atmosphere maps if they had only like half, at best, of the heat dissipation...

You think people hate Terra Therma? Wait for half-dissipation HPG...

[GernMiester]

Near light speed? Defy Gravity? I don't know if I should laugh, cry,or facepalm so I did all three.
Oh spaghetti monster in the sky we are doomed.

[White Bear 84]

Nightshade24, on 13 July 2015 - 06:03 AM, said:

-warning, wall'o'logic'that'is'actually'useless'information'and'theory

You had me at useless information

[Joseph Mallan]

Why does the Gauss Shell defy Gravity?
Answer: They are aged to the perfect adolescent age where authority is challenged in an attempt to find it's limits in the game world!

[CocoaJin]

I can never get those 2 mins back

[Lily from animove]

Nightshade24, on 13 July 2015 - 06:08 AM, said:

Well they are not in the tows, they are basicly in your hip.

And when you look at tanks....
(1 example) you got ammo beside and under the DRIVER or the radio operator... behind you, beside you, near the back, near the breach, above you, etc.

Tanks irl actually have more odd placement of ammo then battlemechs in BT. I wish I can find a better EG but I know tanks out there with ammo as flooring practically and tanks with ammo so far forward you might as well go open your hatch and get it from the outside.


However speaking of how ammo travels... I love the Timberwolf "mad cats" ways to get ammo to the side torsos...

BT lore allows me to put 2t of missile ammo in the legs, now please tell me where all those missiles fit in each leg.Especially when you look at those missiles sizes, you know they can't even be anywhere in those mech.

"2000 lrm's here" and the mech would look like a hedgehog

[Joseph Mallan]

Lily from animove, on 13 July 2015 - 08:10 AM, said:

BT lore allows me to put 2t of missile ammo in the legs, now please tell me where all those missiles fit in each leg.Especially when you look at those missiles sizes, you know they can't even be anywhere in those mech.

"2000 lrm's here" and the mech would look like a hedgehog

Can't you guys suspend just a little damn disbelief?

[Twilight Fenrir]

Nightshade24, on 13 July 2015 - 06:08 AM, said:

Well they are not in the tows, they are basicly in your hip.

Tanks irl actually have more odd placement of ammo then battlemechs in BT. I wish I can find a better EG but I know tanks out there with ammo as flooring practically and tanks with ammo so far forward you might as well go open your hatch and get it from the outside.


However speaking of how ammo travels... I love the Timberwolf "mad cats" ways to get ammo to the side torsos...

One other thing interesting about that Timbie schematic... There is no Myomer Everything appears to be driven by hydraulics, and motors... Actually, that's kind of a problem for all the art, very little of it looks to have any sort of muscle structure, it all looks like hydraulic actuation.

And, yeah, how does ammo feed from legs to arms in other mechs? You're telling me the knee, hip, torso pivot, shoulder, and elbow can all pass 100 kilogram gauss slugs through it?

Edited by Twilight Fenrir, 13 July 2015 - 08:29 AM.

[TLBFestus]

00ohDstruct, on 13 July 2015 - 03:42 AM, said:

Because real world and physics doesn't apply to Battletech or Mechwarrior.

Ever ask yourself how a PGI Jenner doesn't kill the pilot when it torso twists?

or

How the ammo moves up through the toes, joints, endo-steel skeleton and myomers through the reactor and internal structures and into the missile launchers or guns?

I don't want to get too complicated here, but the ammo is condensed into tiny little pellets, that is then moved through invisble tubes to the weapon, possibly with assistance from Kebler Elves. It is then reconstituted with water like this;





If it makes anyone feel better, the Elves can be robotic.

[Nightshade24]

Twilight Fenrir, on 13 July 2015 - 08:27 AM, said:

One other thing interesting about that Timbie schematic... There is no Myomer Everything appears to be driven by hydraulics, and motors... Actually, that's kind of a problem for all the art, very little of it looks to have any sort of muscle structure, it all looks like hydraulic actuation.

And, yeah, how does ammo feed from legs to arms in other mechs? You're telling me the knee, hip, torso pivot, shoulder, and elbow can all pass 100 kilogram gauss slugs through it?

What if I told you myomer is inside those hydraulics and actuators? -dun dun DUN!- But that aside, I could look into it for you. One thing with internal views is that they sometimes intentionally skip things out as it can cover everything else up. Kinda like when looking at the internals of a human, most of the time they skip or lightly mark where muscle and fat would be as if they didn't all you would see is just the muscle and fat and none of the internal skeleton or organs.

I mean from what we know of myomer, theoretically they should be wrapped and stretched and coiled all around those components as it also doubles as a insulator.


And what I am saying is that the term "leg" is a very BROAD term, simply saying "Leg" doesn't mean the very end of your tippy toes in your mech, What I am saying is that it could mean the Lower torso for eg. Which would be the equivalent to a tank having ammo bellow the turret ring.


Also on most mechs... the torso is large, or on some others... there "torso" is the side torsos... Nova. Locust. Jenner, Cicada... etc. So basically for those mechs having "Leg" ammo is as 'logical' as having ammo to a side torso.


Also we have learned that the internals of a mech is kind of not perfectly divided like a pizza having all the weapons and equipment specifically in X area. This is very obvious as it would waste a lot of space and ammo explosions have taught us that they affect neighboring areas. So theoretically the ammo bins for the "legs" could be in the utmost lowest side torsos.

Also the exact specific mass of "ammo" is unknown... because when you equip ammo to a mech, it's not only the casings/ the bullet/ the gun powder/ payload/ etc...

but it's also the bin itself, the mechanisms transferring ammo to the weapons or to other locations to reach weapons, etc...
So technically we do not know if it's 100kg's of gauss ammo that's being transferred.



TL:Dr -

I said that the ammo in for eg legs, will not be in the tippy toes or the ankle, but in the waist/ torso. and we know the internals of a mech isn't like sliced pizza with everything exactly where they are on the 'hitbox'. Thus that ammo in the legs theoretically can be the very lowest part of the side torso.

[Nightshade24]

Lily from animove, on 13 July 2015 - 08:10 AM, said:

BT lore allows me to put 2t of missile ammo in the legs, now please tell me where all those missiles fit in each leg.Especially when you look at those missiles sizes, you know they can't even be anywhere in those mech.

"2000 lrm's here" and the mech would look like a hedgehog

you forget that in MW: O they inflated the ammo per ton on most mechs.
1 ton of LRM ammo is 120 rounds.
10 tons of LRM ammo is 1200 rounds
16 tons is 1920 rounds.

With that in mind. This is your build TBR-AMMO GURD

And you removed your lasers and machine guns and nearly everything besides the LRM 20's and 1 medium laser.
By having "2000 rounds" you basically made room for those rounds removing all the other weapons and stuff and heatsinks.


Read above post for more details.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nightshade24, on 13 July 2015 - 06:17 PM, said:

What if I told you myomer is inside those hydraulics and actuators? -dun dun DUN!- But that aside, I could look into it for you. One thing with internal views is that they sometimes intentionally skip things out as it can cover everything else up. Kinda like when looking at the internals of a human, most of the time they skip or lightly mark where muscle and fat would be as if they didn't all you would see is just the muscle and fat and none of the internal skeleton or organs.

I mean from what we know of myomer, theoretically they should be wrapped and stretched and coiled all around those components as it also doubles as a insulator.


And what I am saying is that the term "leg" is a very BROAD term, simply saying "Leg" doesn't mean the very end of your tippy toes in your mech, What I am saying is that it could mean the Lower torso for eg. Which would be the equivalent to a tank having ammo bellow the turret ring.


Also on most mechs... the torso is large, or on some others... there "torso" is the side torsos... Nova. Locust. Jenner, Cicada... etc. So basically for those mechs having "Leg" ammo is as 'logical' as having ammo to a side torso.


Also we have learned that the internals of a mech is kind of not perfectly divided like a pizza having all the weapons and equipment specifically in X area. This is very obvious as it would waste a lot of space and ammo explosions have taught us that they affect neighboring areas. So theoretically the ammo bins for the "legs" could be in the utmost lowest side torsos.

Also the exact specific mass of "ammo" is unknown... because when you equip ammo to a mech, it's not only the casings/ the bullet/ the gun powder/ payload/ etc...

but it's also the bin itself, the mechanisms transferring ammo to the weapons or to other locations to reach weapons, etc...
So technically we do not know if it's 100kg's of gauss ammo that's being transferred.



TL:Dr -

I said that the ammo in for eg legs, will not be in the tippy toes or the ankle, but in the waist/ torso. and we know the internals of a mech isn't like sliced pizza with everything exactly where they are on the 'hitbox'. Thus that ammo in the legs theoretically can be the very lowest part of the side torso.

there are other schematics that show the myomer. It's external the "skeleton". But it's not all encompassing like human muscle.

i can't find the direct TBR pic atm, but will post it if I do. I think it was inside the MW second edition sourcebook