96 replies to this topic

[Eider]

DarthRevis, on 14 July 2015 - 07:46 AM, said:

You must not CLAN ERPPC much, you have no room for anything but DHS....Let alone gauss and ammo.

6 seconds is WAAAAY to long even with 15 ppfld. Needs to be shorter then that but i dont really see WHY you feel we need to the change Andi?

PPC's and ERPPC's would be fine if they were not so damn hot.....especially with the speed increase of late.

If my adder can clan erppc much, i dont see why heaviers woulnt be able to.. wait they do it just fine.

[Andi Nagasia]

DarthRevis, on 14 July 2015 - 07:46 AM, said:

You must not CLAN ERPPC much, you have no room for anything but DHS....Let alone gauss and ammo.

6 seconds is WAAAAY to long even with 15 ppfld. Needs to be shorter then that but i dont really see WHY you feel we need to the change Andi?

PPC's and ERPPC's would be fine if they were not so damn hot.....especially with the speed increase of late.

It was a discussion Idea, to see Whether People would like to have 15Damage C-ER-PPCs,
or would rather Keep things as they are, a Thoughts and Opinions topic if you will,
(this isnt gonna get me a -SA- Flogging later today is it? )

@IraqiWalker,
Thanks, i didint mean for this Topic to be Blown out of Perposion,
i just wanted to hear peoples thoughts on C-ER-PPC having 15Damage,
it seems like i got My Answer,

Thanks to all who have Contributed to this Topic,
those for and those Against thanks for your Opinions,

[IraqiWalker]

Andi Nagasia, on 14 July 2015 - 04:53 PM, said:

@IraqiWalker,
Thanks, i didint mean for this Topic to be Blown out of Perposion,
i just wanted to hear peoples thoughts on C-ER-PPC having 15Damage,
it seems like i got My Answer,

Thanks to all who have Contributed to this Topic,
those for and those Against thanks for your Opinions,

If the forums had a national pass-time it would be blowing things out of proportion.

Thank you for being so civil, and calm.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

lordtzar, on 14 July 2015 - 04:06 PM, said:

Unghosted that's 45 heat for 3x IS ERPPC.

With an awesome's 25% heat quirks as we have ingame RIGHT NOW........3x ERPPC = 47.925 heat.

So the objectively worst mech in the game can more or less ignore ghost heat.

But if clans could have their 15/15 then they would dedicate 2 E hardpoints, 4 crits, and 12 tons for their 30 PPFLD. While the AWS-8Q gets 30 PPFLD for 3E hardpoints, 9 crits, and 21 tons.

Doesn't seem very fair since any clan mech that can pack 2 cERPPCs could do it. Then there's the Warhawk, it can take 2 cERPPCs and a Gauss with enough heat sinks to keep it very cool for currently 35 PPFLD better than nearly all IS mechs. Imagine it being able to 45 PPFLD for days.

Or the Direwhale. So we really want to up it from 50 to 60 PPFLD?

[LordKnightFandragon]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 14 July 2015 - 05:16 PM, said:

So the objectively worst mech in the game can more or less ignore ghost heat.

But if clans could have their 15/15 then they would dedicate 2 E hardpoints, 4 crits, and 12 tons for their 30 PPFLD. While the AWS-8Q gets 30 PPFLD for 3E hardpoints, 9 crits, and 21 tons.

Doesn't seem very fair since any clan mech that can pack 2 cERPPCs could do it. Then there's the Warhawk, it can take 2 cERPPCs and a Gauss with enough heat sinks to keep it very cool for currently 35 PPFLD better than nearly all IS mechs. Imagine it being able to 45 PPFLD for days.

Or the Direwhale. So we really want to up it from 50 to 60 PPFLD?

Not if the changes came with a 60 point max heat scale. THen, fire all 60 of that heat, shut down, go for it.

In the current 100 point heat scale, yeah, its pretty amazing and would be kinda OP. But in a 60 point heat scale, you would have to chain fire and even then, there would be breaks in the fire. the 60 heatwould build up faster then it would dissipate.

THe 15/15 CERPPC change would be awesome, just not in our current iteration of MWO. Everyone gets so caught up on the 15 dmg they dont even think about all the other factors that could be used to balance it and make the game better overall. I swear, damage is the only thing anyone ever considers, its the only balance metric and only thing used to determine any changes....

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 14 July 2015 - 05:44 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

LordKnightFandragon, on 14 July 2015 - 05:44 PM, said:

Not if the changes came with a 60 point max heat scale. THen, fire all 60 of that heat, shut down, go for it.

In the current 100 point heat scale, yeah, its pretty amazing and would be kinda OP. But in a 60 point heat scale, you would have to chain fire and even then, there would be breaks in the fire. the 60 heatwould build up faster then it would dissipate.

THe 15/15 CERPPC change would be awesome, just not in our current iteration of MWO. Everyone gets so caught up on the 15 dmg they dont even think about all the other factors that could be used to balance it and make the game better overall. I swear, damage is the only thing anyone ever considers, its the only balance metric and only thing used to determine any changes....

There is no 100 point heat scale.
The scale changes based on how many heatsinks and skills you have in that mech.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

LordKnightFandragon, on 14 July 2015 - 05:44 PM, said:

Not if the changes came with a 60 point max heat scale. THen, fire all 60 of that heat, shut down, go for it.

In the current 100 point heat scale, yeah, its pretty amazing and would be kinda OP. But in a 60 point heat scale, you would have to chain fire and even then, there would be breaks in the fire. the 60 heatwould build up faster then it would dissipate.

THe 15/15 CERPPC change would be awesome, just not in our current iteration of MWO. Everyone gets so caught up on the 15 dmg they dont even think about all the other factors that could be used to balance it and make the game better overall. I swear, damage is the only thing anyone ever considers, its the only balance metric and only thing used to determine any changes....

I wasn't talking about 4x cERPPCs on a Warhawk. I was taking 2x cERPPCs and 2x Gauss: 60 PPFLD, 32 heat.

[LordKnightFandragon]

IraqiWalker, on 14 July 2015 - 05:51 PM, said:

There is no 100 point heat scale.
The scale changes based on how many heatsinks and skills you have in that mech.

Either way, its way to much overall. A Fixed 60 point heat scale would work wonders on heavy weapon balance. Where a 15/15 CERPPC would fire 4 times and shut down. Where as now, I can fire it 8 times, wait then fire a 9th...or just back up and come back around in 3s for a 10th and 11th shot.

Warhawk is something like 108 heat mastered. HBR is somewhere around 70-80 heat. ITs also why PGI added GH, it was to ttry and fill in the gaps to make alphas hotter, when what is really needed is a straight across the board reduction in max heat scale. 50-60 point max. No additions, no more threshold...no GH inflating our heat magically.....just 60 points of heat to play with, manage it how you will.

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 14 July 2015 - 05:53 PM, said:

I wasn't talking about 4x cERPPCs on a Warhawk. I was taking 2x cERPPCs and 2x Gauss: 60 PPFLD, 32 heat.

Would be down right ferocious on a Dire WOlf....really dont wanna see that day again. IT was bad enough when I saw the 2PPC 1GR DWF combo take my mech apart in 2 blasts.

[IraqiWalker]

LordKnightFandragon, on 14 July 2015 - 05:56 PM, said:

Either way, its way to much overall. A Fixed 60 point heat scale would work wonders on heavy weapon balance. Where a 15/15 CERPPC would fire 4 times and shut down. Where as now, I can fire it 8 times, wait then fire a 9th...or just back up and come back around in 3s for a 10th and 11th shot.

Warhawk is something like 108 heat mastered. HBR is somewhere around 70-80 heat. ITs also why PGI added GH, it was to ttry and fill in the gaps to make alphas hotter, when what is really needed is a straight across the board reduction in max heat scale. 50-60 point max. No additions, no more threshold...no GH inflating our heat magically.....just 60 points of heat to play with, manage it how you will.

If we're going there, why not go all the way, and go to the proper 30 cap?

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

LordKnightFandragon, on 14 July 2015 - 05:56 PM, said:

Either way, its way to much overall. A Fixed 60 point heat scale would work wonders on heavy weapon balance. Where a 15/15 CERPPC would fire 4 times and shut down. Where as now, I can fire it 8 times, wait then fire a 9th...or just back up and come back around in 3s for a 10th and 11th shot.

Warhawk is something like 108 heat mastered. HBR is somewhere around 70-80 heat. ITs also why PGI added GH, it was to ttry and fill in the gaps to make alphas hotter, when what is really needed is a straight across the board reduction in max heat scale. 50-60 point max. No additions, no more threshold...no GH inflating our heat magically.....just 60 points of heat to play with, manage it how you will.




Would be down right ferocious on a Dire WOlf....really dont wanna see that day again. IT was bad enough when I saw the 2PPC 1GR DWF combo take my mech apart in 2 blasts.

2x cERPPC 2x Gauss whales are already common. I even have one sitting in my mechbay now. It fires off 50 PPFLD less than every 4.5 seconds. I really don't want to that bumped up to 60 unless IS gets a bump in efficiency for their PPC/ERPPCs.

[LordKnightFandragon]

IraqiWalker, on 14 July 2015 - 06:05 PM, said:

If we're going there, why not go all the way, and go to the proper 30 cap?

Idk, cuz alot of people would really QQ over it. I can also see it making PPCs and the larger beam weapons a little to hot. 30 is 3 shots, and over heat. It kinda does enforce a 15-30 point alpha system though, as no one can really pump out much more then 20-30 points w/o careful heat management. I personally think 40 is a decent place. Makes PPCs and ERPPCs a little toasty overall, giving you 2 shots, a slight cooling off period then a 3rd. However, I can still see people kinda writing off large energy weapons as to hot to really make worth much. Its why I think 50-60 is best. It allows large energy weapons 3-4 shots and overall makes energy weapons good, but limited.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 14 July 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

2x cERPPC 2x Gauss whales are already common. I even have one sitting in my mechbay now. It fires off 50 PPFLD less than every 4.5 seconds. I really don't want to that bumped up to 60 unless IS gets a bump in efficiency for their PPC/ERPPCs.

Id give CERPPC 12-13, I can see 15 being to much. Ive been on the pointy end of a series of high ass Alpha Gauss/PPC whales.....melted my Warhawk in seconds. I can only imagine what it does to lesser mechs. The 6LL Stalker is basically a 60 pt alpha and it shredded my HBR in like 3 salvos.....

Yeah, TTK like that is no fun for anyone. And 50pts in 4.5s? Id make it where its 10, 10, 15, 15, cuz none of those weapons can evne group fire. THey are PPD already.

Maybe, even lowering Gauss dmg to 12 had recently crossed my mind.

[Widowmaker1981]

IraqiWalker, on 14 July 2015 - 06:05 PM, said:

If we're going there, why not go all the way, and go to the proper 30 cap?

Because there is nothing 'proper' about a 30 heat cap?

BT heat cap is 30, but that is AFTER HEATSINKING FOR THE TURN.

There is NO SUCH THING as instantaneous heat in BT, because it is a turn based game and therefore there is no need for it - but since its possible to fire 4 ERPPCs with 30 DHS and be unaffected by heat penalties, there cannot be a 30 heat cap, since youd explode if you did the same thing in real time with a 30 cap, because youd double it.

[IraqiWalker]

LordKnightFandragon, on 14 July 2015 - 08:13 PM, said:

Idk, cuz alot of people would really QQ over it. I can also see it making PPCs and the larger beam weapons a little to hot. 30 is 3 shots, and over heat. It kinda does enforce a 15-30 point alpha system though, as no one can really pump out much more then 20-30 points w/o careful heat management. I personally think 40 is a decent place. Makes PPCs and ERPPCs a little toasty overall, giving you 2 shots, a slight cooling off period then a 3rd. However, I can still see people kinda writing off large energy weapons as to hot to really make worth much. Its why I think 50-60 is best. It allows large energy weapons 3-4 shots and overall makes energy weapons good, but limited.

Fair enough

Widowmaker1981, on 14 July 2015 - 11:29 PM, said:

Because there is nothing 'proper' about a 30 heat cap?

BT heat cap is 30, but that is AFTER HEATSINKING FOR THE TURN.

There is NO SUCH THING as instantaneous heat in BT, because it is a turn based game and therefore there is no need for it - but since its possible to fire 4 ERPPCs with 30 DHS and be unaffected by heat penalties, there cannot be a 30 heat cap, since youd explode if you did the same thing in real time with a 30 cap, because youd double it.

I understand that.

Just spitballing here, but wouldn't It work if you made heatsinking instantaneous as well.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Widowmaker1981, on 14 July 2015 - 11:29 PM, said:

Because there is nothing 'proper' about a 30 heat cap?

BT heat cap is 30, but that is AFTER HEATSINKING FOR THE TURN.

There is NO SUCH THING as instantaneous heat in BT, because it is a turn based game and therefore there is no need for it - but since its possible to fire 4 ERPPCs with 30 DHS and be unaffected by heat penalties, there cannot be a 30 heat cap, since youd explode if you did the same thing in real time with a 30 cap, because youd double it.

Actually there is value in exploring a lowered Heat Cap with improved Dissipation due to the various doubled up values elsewhere, and how we can aim our weapons in relation to the original for MWO.

Granted I'd also like to adjust base weapon stats some, but at least seeing improvements with the Heat System would be good for MWO.

IMHO, Dissipation over time should be the P&P capacity from Heat Sinks translated to MWO, meaning we should have a set Heat Cap and improved Dissipation.

What we have in MWO right now is basically the original dissipation rate with a small boost from a Mech Tree Efficiency, were it probably should also have been doubled along with the rest of the inflated values.

Going into some details as to how I'd go about these changes to MWO Heat:

Spoiler

So, if we could see MWO's Heat Scale have it's override-able shutdown start at 30 heat, it would actually be close to the original value of 14 on the original table in terms of comparing original values to MWO's doubled values.

And as for heat effects, we can keep any new effects (along with the current damage to internals occur say in the mid 30s to 40s range with an automatic shutdown at say 200% heat, which could be in the range of 56 to 60 heat), and with better dissipation players will still need to manage hotter builds with a lower cap and better dissipation.

So, we could then have the values doubled, DHS at 0.4 each and SHS at 0.2 each (and the way I'd implement these values as, either not influenced by Cool Run or have 2x Coolrun bring them up 0.4 and 0.2 respectively since it's 15%, then we could see ~0.347 and ~0.174 for example before Cool Run).

So with a stock Warhawk Prime with 20 DHS, it could then dissipate 8.00 heat a second. And current modifiers firing 2 ERPPCs every 3.32 seconds generates a 27.6 Heat Spike at 8.31 HPS.

So the mech would be able to keep firing a pair of ERPPCs practically indefinitely with current values on a cold map. I'd say that'll be a huge improvement over how the mech would shutdown on the third firing, if holding down the fire button on a pair of them. And if desperate would still allow for a desperate additional shot with at the great risk of shutting dowm in a battle.

Next, looking at a modified Elited Nova-A with 18 DHS and a TC1 should be able to fire two ERPPCs every 3.32 seconds for 28.2 heat and a HPS of 8.49 where the 18 DHS would only dissipate at 7.2 a second, so it could still get toasty if not managed well, and sees an improvement over it's current 3.59 Dissipation.

And with a Cap around ~30 we could then have mechs like the Warhawk Prime or Awesome 8Q remain top choices for their signature weapons, but other mechs would still be able to utilze the same weapons due to the improved dissipation, but less efficiently due to differences with quirks that remain on mechs after the upcoming balancing.

And then we would then require some adjustments to Heat Scale Penalties in relation to the lowered Heat Cap.

---

Another aspect to explore is with the HUD display with any changes.

So one thing to consider is when firing Heat is displayed as filling the bar with a blue color below 25, then red/yellow between 25 and 30, and then have it display bright red above 30 to ~60.

[FatYak]

Absolutely not. Cool down and heat regardless, we do not need to have 60pt instacore alpha's getting around, might as well have left quad gauss in. Shutting down form a heat spike does not mean much when your 1 shot killing anything less than a heavy.

Andi Nagasia, on 13 July 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

10 Damage and 2.5 to two other Locations,

I know, right! What other PPFLD weapon in the game can I completely miss the component I was trying to hit and still get a kill? Running dual ERPPC on a timby nets me many kills I would otherwise miss because that extra 5 damage finishes off the component I was trying to hit

Edited by FatYak, 15 July 2015 - 06:17 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

Personally yes. I would take a slightly longer delay on the IS PPCs even just to turn them more into a sniper/mid-long support weapon. Not huge mind you, but a small one from where it is now and then a slightly longer cooldown on CERPPC to give up full 15 pinpoint hits. The mechanic is a neat idea honestly, but its kind of a joke.

[Widowmaker1981]

IraqiWalker, on 15 July 2015 - 07:44 AM, said:

Fair enough



I understand that.

Just spitballing here, but wouldn't It work if you made heatsinking instantaneous as well.

the only way you could make it work, imo, would be if all weapons generated heat over time as opposed to instantly. So for example if you fired an ERPPC it would generate 1.5 heat every second for the next 10 seconds - allowing your heatsinks to keep up (or not if you fire too much) and prevent your heatscale rising at all. In that world, you could have a cap of 30 and penalties higher up on the scale, since it would be possible to not climb the scale at all with good heat management.

[LordKnightFandragon]

PPCs are better, but still LPL are better...atleast CLPL. Still more dmg for less heat trumps hot as **** for less damage, even if it is PPD...

Esp when the proper way to play this game is FIr3 3VeRyTh1NG!!!!

56 dmg for 40 heat trumps 40 dmg for 60 heat.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 16 July 2015 - 02:02 AM.

[Gattsus]

Could be a good idea.