60 replies to this topic

[Eegxeta]

Torso mounted weapons would be aimed with torso twist and arms would be aimed separately. Ok now lets think it over that would be two or even three things you need to aim all at once. Do you have any idea how hard that would be? Mapping the keys alone would be nuts and can you imagine how you would use joy sticks for that? That is a lot for one person to coordinate, and I don't really think any other gamer is really going to want to ether. Yes it is a neat idea, but not a practical one.

[Webclaw]

A way to implement the advantages of free reticle aiming combined with the simplicity and ease of a locked reticle could be that whenever you look with your mouse/joystick your reticle that had before hand been perfectly centered with your torso weapons now splits into two due to the ability of the arm mounted weapons to move faster than the torso twist, while the reticle is now split into two the torso weapons, and torso, will now try and follow where the new arm based reticle is located effectively creating a constant "torso to reticle center" effect that allows for the simplicity of the locked reticle used in MechWarrior 2/4 and the advantage of having the arm weapons become more than just weapons waiting to be easily blown off.

[Eegxeta]

Webclaw, on 17 November 2011 - 04:04 PM, said:

A way to implement the advantages of free reticle aiming combined with the simplicity and ease of a locked reticle could be that whenever you look with your mouse/joystick your reticle that had before hand been perfectly centered with your torso weapons now splits into two due to the ability of the arm mounted weapons to move faster than the torso twist, while the reticle is now split into two the torso weapons, and torso, will now try and follow where the new arm based reticle is located effectively creating a constant "torso to reticle center" effect that allows for the simplicity of the locked reticle used in MechWarrior 2/4 and the advantage of having the arm weapons become more than just weapons waiting to be easily blown off.

I have a game that does something like this Dark Star One the weapons follow the mouse and the ship turns that way as well.

[Webclaw]

Eegxeta, on 17 November 2011 - 04:13 PM, said:

I have a game that does something like this Dark Star One the weapons follow the mouse and the ship turns that way as well.

Does it work gameplay wise in that?

[Amechwarrior]

Webclaw, on 17 November 2011 - 04:04 PM, said:

...will now try and follow where the new arm based reticle is located effectively creating a constant "torso to reticle center" effect...

This actually accomplishes everything very elegantly, without esoteric joystick assignments and makes stick and mouse play very similar. This also allows the potential for not just different torso speeds, but also arm tracking speeds should they want to go that far. Combined with the limited tracking speeds mentioned above I think that makes a simple, fair and immersive method. Good call on that idea.

[Daneiel]

Amechwarrior, on 17 November 2011 - 03:30 PM, said:

MW4 was launched and entire year before Microsoft's Xbox, and about one year after Microsoft officially acquired FASA Studios. The development team was part of the tesla pod team and even re-used pod engine assets(scroll down). They are the last kind of people who would want to see it moved to a console. T.J Wagner, the executive producer for MW4 and a tesla developer also quotes the main development time as 18-20 months. All of this shows that MW4 was a branch off of the Firestorm series engine from the Virtual World Centers. In no way was it developed for for an existing console of the time (PS2 came out same time MW4 did) or near future consoles like the Xbox.

For reasons why MW4 came out more "actiony" then previous games, you can thank this guy. Some of the things I hear come out of his mouth in that interview make me cringe. But that is a different issue then why the reticle was returned to a locked configuration. Sadly, sites like badkarma.net and the older versions of dropshipcommand.com are no longer available and I admit I still have not found a first person source stating the reasons for locked reticle. However, you can find a common theme in posts where forum users simply say "the devs said it was unfair to joysticks" like in the link I provided in my first post. They state it like it was common knowledge. This circumstantial evidence, combined with the documentary material provided above does not support your case.

As for "yes most of the old players like me prefer - MW3 targeting system , but some of the people who started with MW4 and prefer joystick for control system will be unhappy with free targeting system"

MW3 as "old players" lacks hindsight. It ignores the massive impact of MW2(a DOS release) and expansions that were released in a time when the mouse itself was a new gadget and complex joysticks ruled the field. Look at the MW2 instruction manual, it showcases the many types of joysticks available at the time. It was MW2 players who were the ones who felt miffed at MW3s floating reticle and that older core fanbase was the reason MW4 returned it.

For its time, it was the right move. We have the capabilities and know-how to let it return if that is what the MWO team wants. Please do not take this as a attack on you or your ideas, I was just addressing the factual claims in the post.

I don't want to enter in pointless discussion , but how long time take to develop console and why are hired that team and what are your plans for that console after that, also i never said that i begun with MW3 , but unlocking the reticle was step forward , locking it again was step back .

Edited by daneiel varna, 17 November 2011 - 06:15 PM.

[CeeKay Boques]

Eegxeta, on 17 November 2011 - 03:44 PM, said:

Torso mounted weapons would be aimed with torso twist and arms would be aimed separately. Ok now lets think it over that would be two or even three things you need to aim all at once. Do you have any idea how hard that would be? Mapping the keys alone would be nuts and can you imagine how you would use joy sticks for that? That is a lot for one person to coordinate, and I don't really think any other gamer is really going to want to ether. Yes it is a neat idea, but not a practical one.

I love hard. Don't you? Don't you like difficult? I mean... what's the point of being good a checkers when you can be good at chess?

[Joker Two]

For torso vs. arm weapons, have the torso weapon cut out if the reticule is outside its arc of fire. Maybe even change the reticule to represent what weapons you have selected, and have the part of the reticule representing the Hunchback's AC/20 go dark and rest at the edge of its arc while the laser reticule continues to track. If you fire with the AC and the laser selected, only the laser shoots. Move the reticule back into arc, it picks up the AC icon again, and both weapons fire when you pull the trigger.

[Yeach]

Have torso weapons be locked to forward facing; have arm weapons havea free-look reticle controlled by the hat switch.

[CyBerkut]

Webclaw, on 17 November 2011 - 04:04 PM, said:

A way to implement the advantages of free reticle aiming combined with the simplicity and ease of a locked reticle could be that whenever you look with your mouse/joystick your reticle that had before hand been perfectly centered with your torso weapons now splits into two due to the ability of the arm mounted weapons to move faster than the torso twist, while the reticle is now split into two the torso weapons, and torso, will now try and follow where the new arm based reticle is located effectively creating a constant "torso to reticle center" effect that allows for the simplicity of the locked reticle used in MechWarrior 2/4 and the advantage of having the arm weapons become more than just weapons waiting to be easily blown off.

+1 on this, at least as an option. If there are optional control schemes to choose from, this one probably should be the default selection.

I can envision scenarios where the pilot might not want the torso to re-center, choosing to just use the available arm-mounted weapon(s) while keeping the torso facing in another direction... so it would be nice to have in-game selectable control modes (for the folks who are willing to utilize more complexity).

[Melissia]

Dunno, I prefer the torso twist thing. Sure, it may not be perfectly lore-based, but it's more interesting and requires less coordination.

So perhaps an option to use torso twist aiming or switch to more advanced aiming?

[Cake Bandit]

What about a way to unlock the reticule while you're playing so it isn't always free? Most mice with a roller-thingy on them also have a third button if you press it down, maybe make it that.

[chrisy05]

Webclaw, on 17 November 2011 - 04:04 PM, said:

A way to implement the advantages of free reticle aiming combined with the simplicity and ease of a locked reticle could be that whenever you look with your mouse/joystick your reticle that had before hand been perfectly centered with your torso weapons now splits into two due to the ability of the arm mounted weapons to move faster than the torso twist, while the reticle is now split into two the torso weapons, and torso, will now try and follow where the new arm based reticle is located effectively creating a constant "torso to reticle center" effect that allows for the simplicity of the locked reticle used in MechWarrior 2/4 and the advantage of having the arm weapons become more than just weapons waiting to be easily blown off.

Yes, this all the way.

The reticle for the torso mounted weapons should simply track (or trail) the mouse controlled reticle for the arm mounted weapons.

Additionally, the reticle for the arm mounted weapons should also allow the player to look around the cockpit.

Edited by chrisy05, 18 November 2011 - 12:42 PM.

[Amechwarrior]

To add it all up:

Regardless of input method arm and torso reticles have a fixed maximum traverse speed. Some 'mechs could be slightly faster then others and it limits the unbeatable speed and accuracy of the mouse in a way that makes sense from a "This is a giant war machine, not a ninja." viewpoint.

Possible Default Unlocked Reticle:
The torso reticle follows the arms reticle, which is what is being manipulated by joystick or mouse. This does not need to exclude separate controls for torso twist that could override the auto-follow. Torso weapons could also have some deadzone in the middle, very limited traverse so not every motion equals torso adjustment.

You could also assign a button to disable auto-follow, should you want to try and engage multiple targets. Middle mouse button does sound like a good choice.

No reason not to include a setting for MW4 style - "just one reticle, no extra arm movement other then hat swtich" if you do not want the added complexity.

Freelook - separate from how the torso follows the arm reticle - Some different ideas here. What should default be?

The MW3Demo/Metroid Prime method of limiting you to your front view, when the arm reticles reach the end, it torso twists you. More or less, your pilots head is always facing forward like previous games. This does keep both reticles on screen at the same time. But separates firing to the far left/right to a separate button. (hat switch, numbpad)

One option was letting the arm reticle look all the way around the cockpit, all the time. Total Freelook, like you are using the pilots head inside the cockpit. With this total freelook, If you kept the arm reticle on the right edge, your pilots head would turn and the arms would go with it. This might allow for more frequent off-sides shooting and adds seamless flow from far left to front, to far right arc. But it does add another layer of what happens with the left arm when it reaches its right side limit and weapon grouping becomes more complex.

I do not see why you could not incorporate all of these as options, other then "too much to test and balance, not worth the manhours." It would give those who want the added flexibility and complexity a potential advantage for mastering these skills. It also forces them to think differently about weapons groupings then someone who is just using a MW4 style setup. I do not think it gives a major advantage or disadvantage to K/M or joystick users. But it gives added potential for those who want to learn it. There are some issues with bits and pieces of these combined together or separated, total freelook the hardest of all. Anyone got examples of where these will not work?

[plodder]

I just downloaded mw4merc, mektek. NO freelook, ticked me off. So I look to see what was talked about, are you serious, why block it out?!?!?!! It is such more realistic, I use mouse, but was going to setup joystick the same way. REAL MECHS WOULD AUTOMATICALLY HAVE FREE LOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have only played mw2 mw3, and freelook or floating is what makes it realistic to me

[Graphite]

buck rogers, on 31 October 2011 - 10:00 PM, said:

The reticle could move independent of torso twist for arm mounted weapons...

However, as I stated in another thread, I believe that because a Hunchbacks AC-20 is embedded in its torso, it should have to bring that weapon to bear on its enemies by torso twisting/pivoting/bending over. This is supported by canon artwork of the mech even.

---Buck.

You could have a fixed reticle for torso mounted weapons, and a floating one for arm mounted weapons.
That would be interesting...

[plodder]

I think there should be an option for 2 freelook/floating reticles, like some of the mechs had in the books. I seem to remember a battle with? and ? a Kurita master? where their mechs became invisible to all the sensors, and the reticles could not lock on do to the spiritual battle oneness and flow of chi or whatever. I remember the 2 seperate reticules I think. One for each arm or system, you could even then have a 3rd one for fixed weapons. Thanks uncle danno

[BarHaid]

Don't forget about leg mounted weapons. They don't even get a torso twist. That gives you a reticle that never strays from your movement path.

How many buttons does the top 'o the line joystick come with anyway?

[Longinus Leichenberg]

I have my own views on this elaborated over here.

[RabydSalmon]

I really like the idea of a torso reticle that follows the arm reticle. If there was a button or key that would cycle between different aiming modes, that would be even better. Have one mode where all weapons are locked to one reticle in line with the torso, so it is limited to the torso twist speed and angle (a la MW4); another mode where the arm and torso weapons are locked to seperate reticles, with the arms having much faster and more unrestricted movement and follow a floating reticle, and the torso reticle is centered and follows the arms to the best of its ability(Webclaws idea); and another mode where the torso is controlled manually like in MW4, but the arms have a floating reticle completely seperate from the torso like in AT1 (so like a combination of MW4 and AT1). Another thought, on mechs that have rotating heads, when the arms and torso are seperately controlled, have the head track the arms aimpoint independantly from the torso for extra coolness.