14 replies to this topic

[YourSaviorLegion]

From the get go this game should of been the 3060 era instead of 3050, that way IS mechs and Clan mechs pretty much share the same tech. This way we can all build mechs the way we want them and the weapons can work the way they should and not nerf the crap out of Clan weapons because they're "OP". It seems a lot of people want the game to be 10 years later however this obviously an issue because they already released the invasion (CW) and it would be absurd to can it at this point.

[Y E O N N E]

3070, actually. By 3070, everything you need for balance is in the game. In 3060, there are still several things that need released, mostly in the area of PPCs and auto-cannons. I can leave the LFEs, I really don't think they are all that necessary.

[El Bandito]

3027.

Much easier to balance, for sure.

Edited by El Bandito, 17 July 2015 - 11:26 PM.

[Scout Derek]

No more major balance ideas please, I'd rather have the mechs come out one at a pack instead of a huge pack like wave 1 was.

[aniviron]

3050 was chosen when the game was young and everyone had stars in their eyes. It's the clan invasion, one of the most exciting periods in Battletech! It would be the perfect setting for epic battles with intense faction rivalries, and canonical territorial capture.

But then it came time for the invasion and oh yeah that's right, not a single Mechwarrior game has ever really managed to balance clan tech. (Though I don't really hold it against any of the games, the tabletop game wasn't exactly a stellar example of balance either.)

[Joseph Mallan]

aniviron, on 18 July 2015 - 12:28 AM, said:

3050 was chosen when the game was young and everyone had stars in their eyes. It's the clan invasion, one of the most exciting periods in Battletech! It would be the perfect setting for epic battles with intense faction rivalries, and canonical territorial capture.

But then it came time for the invasion and oh yeah that's right, not a single Mechwarrior game has ever really managed to balance clan tech. (Though I don't really hold it against any of the games, the tabletop game wasn't exactly a stellar example of balance either.)

In previous games I could aquire Clan Tech and put it on my Mechs as I went along though. That helped balance the field. Actual battlefield salvage.

And it would likely be simple(but possibly time consuming) to to make an RNG to determine what is and isn't salvaged from a kill.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 18 July 2015 - 03:37 AM.

[kapusta11]

Clan tech wasn't even nerfed all that much, CXL engines got buffed, endo, ferro and heatsinks remained the same (better than IS). ERMLs and especially ERPPCs got hit pretty hard but that's about it.

Edited by kapusta11, 18 July 2015 - 03:53 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

not a single Mechwarrior game has ever really managed to balance clan tech.

um.. because clan tech isnt supposed to be balanced.

clan tech is supposed to be WAY better. the mistake was in trying to balance it in the first place. thats why IS mechs have all these ridiculous overpowered quirks now.

the majority of the player base wanted 12v10 but PGI couldnt make it work with their matchmaker.... which doesnt work anyway with 12v12. So what difference would it make? They shouldve just done 12v10 and clan tech wouldve been a lot easier to balance. there wouldnt be any need for absurd IS quirks either...

12v10 wouldve made so much more sense and wouldve solved the core balance issues of clan vs IS without having to dope up IS mechs on quirk steroids.

Edited by Khobai, 18 July 2015 - 04:31 AM.

[Sjorpha]

YourSaviorLegion, on 17 July 2015 - 11:14 PM, said:

From the get go this game should of been the 3060 era instead of 3050, that way IS mechs and Clan mechs pretty much share the same tech. This way we can all build mechs the way we want them and the weapons can work the way they should and not nerf the crap out of Clan weapons because they're "OP". It seems a lot of people want the game to be 10 years later however this obviously an issue because they already released the invasion (CW) and it would be absurd to can it at this point.

I think the issue with mixtech in the abscence of balancing is that there would then be equipment and weapons not worth using, in a PvP game you can't really have that unless you also have tech tiers in the matchmaker, because inferior equipment might as well not exist if it's never the optimal choice.

People talk about advancing the timeline as if it would solve balancing. I thing all it would do is leave even more things unbalanced and useless.

It's bad enough already with single heatsinks and standard structure being practically useless, + a number of weapons and pieces of equipment are almost never used, such as flamer and command console.

Advancing the timeline without fixing those things first will only obselete even more stuff, that's just bad game design.

It also makes no sense advancing the timeline when CW isn't even fully released, IMO they shouldn't even start moving the timeline until we have had a chance to actually play the clan invasion in a CW with actual strategy, logistics, scouting missions, economy and so on.

Edited by Sjorpha, 18 July 2015 - 05:06 AM.

[Aim64C]

YourSaviorLegion, on 17 July 2015 - 11:14 PM, said:

From the get go this game should of been the 3060 era instead of 3050, that way IS mechs and Clan mechs pretty much share the same tech.

No, no they don't.

Clan weaponry still has a substantial advantage over Inner Sphere weaponry. There are improvements, yes, but the Clans get lighter, smaller, and harder hitting weapons pretty much across the board.

Quote

This way we can all build mechs the way we want them and the weapons can work the way they should and not nerf the crap out of Clan weapons because they're "OP". It seems a lot of people want the game to be 10 years later however this obviously an issue because they already released the invasion (CW) and it would be absurd to can it at this point.

There really isn't any reason for the game to follow lore, anymore. Nothing is done with the lore other than using it as a cheap marketing exploit.

In either case...

The issue is that the Inner Sphere weaponry wasn't balanced in the first place.

Of course... in many cases, we have to wonder what "balanced" means.

A locust is never going to be "balanced" against a Centurion, let alone an Atlas. And it shouldn't be. You have to literally break the game to make 'mechs like the Locust viable in an all-mech Arena shooter.

Likewise, weapons like the machine gun are never going to be all that useful against battlemechs. They aren't supposed to be.

So, why did 'mechs carry them?

...

...

Why would the Inner Sphere develop the Anti-Personnel Pod (or A-Pod)?

The fundamental balance problem in MWO has absolutely nothing to do with weapon stats or the era we are in and it has everything to do with the fact that the weapons and platforms are not supposed to be equally viable against battlemechs.

The idea that you are going to place everyone in a battlemech and then make the single most important objective the destruction of the opposing team's battlemechs means that you essentially remove lights and mediums from the battlefield. It also means that, baring specific specialized builds, weapons like the small laser, machine gun, and AC2 become obsolete.

Which makes some sense. Those weapon systems were not designed with battlemechs as their primary targets in mind. They could use those weapons against battlemechs, sure - but they were not really intended to perform anything like an AC5 or PPC when it comes to 'mech busting power.

AC2s become very sensible weapons when dealing with VTOL aircraft, hovercraft, etc. Hovercraft that can swoop in and bombard your 'mechs with SRM-6 volleys like a bat out of hell are something to be concerned about. The Gauss Rifle may be more powerful, but firing it is expensive and a bit overkill for vehicles, especially when you figure that a single gauss is 2 AC2s plus three tons of ammo. That's twice as many opportunities to hit, twice as many opportunities to score a critical hit (which is easier on vehicles), and leaves plenty of shots in the ammo bin for something else.

But the Gauss is better when it comes to dealing with battlemechs. Damage is more concentrated to whatever it hits, and does 15 points of damage per turn, which is just not possible with anything short of PPCs or an AC20.

Further, the current maps are just too small for lighter 'mechs to really have much value. Light mechs were good at harassing supply lines or interrupting support assets (such as LRM carrying vehicles). They were meant to engage mostly soft targets (spare for a few exceptions) - to get in and get out before the enemy has a chance to react.

Mediums were meant to have the speed to react to developments while bringing enough firepower and armor to the scene to keep the situation contained. They could also pull off some quick flanks, but were not usually intended to be prime anti-mech contenders. They were no slouches, but just lacked the firepower and armor to lay waste to the enemy. While they can handle everything up to and including their own class, they are just usually undergunned and underarmored to deal with heavier threats.

Heavies are pretty much the hill takers. A good heavy pilot can out-duel an assault pilot if need be and cut right through mediums. Heavy mechs bring the firepower to put a decisive end to battlemechs, pack enough armor to remain in the fight, and have enough mobility to out-maneuver most of what it can't out-shoot.

Assaults are there as the linebackers. Outside of a few special cases, their main job is to point them in a general direction and tell them to shoot everything that isn't friendly along the way. Everyone else is there to make sure the assaults don't get flanked and to try to funnel enemies into the firing arc of assaults.

When the only thing there is to react to is players in 'mechs - it makes little sense to take anything smaller than a heavy.

Even adding capture objectives doesn't change this. Killing the enemy is the best way to ensure that they don't capture things - as is seen on Conquest. Sure, there are times where it comes down to points, but the best strategy is to move as a team, kill the **** out of the enemy, and then divide up into pairs (or whatever) to capture objective points and smother any stragglers.

You have to think outside the 'mech before the balance solutions to MechWarrior become truly obvious.

The problem isn't that weapons are imbalanced. The problem is that the application most weapons were designed around does not exist or plays no significant role in the game.

[Andi Nagasia]

El Bandito, on 17 July 2015 - 11:25 PM, said:

3027.

Much easier to balance, for sure.

can i keep my NopeVa just add on IS lasers?

[SaltBeef]

http://www.sarna.net...i/Black_Hawk-KU


That comes in the form of the Blackhawk KU inner sphere omnimech.

Edited by SaltBeef, 18 July 2015 - 08:05 AM.

[Averen]

SaltBeef, on 18 July 2015 - 08:03 AM, said:

http://www.sarna.net...i/Black_Hawk-KU


That comes in the form of the Blackhawk KU inner sphere omnimech.

60 Ton, IS XL that dies from a dead torso, IS lasers, and less DHS. It's like the exemplification what's broken about balance, that thing can't even imitate a good clan mech.

Edited by Averen, 18 July 2015 - 08:23 AM.

[SaltBeef]

The Victor was the Meta King with a IS XL so moot point! IS meds fire faster, cooler, and have similar ranges with modules and quirks. This mech moves at almost 90kph w/o speed twerk.

Edited by SaltBeef, 18 July 2015 - 08:33 AM.

[martian]

Averen, on 18 July 2015 - 08:22 AM, said:

60 Ton, IS XL that dies from a dead torso, IS lasers, and less DHS. It's like the exemplification what's broken about balance, that thing can't even imitate a good clan mech.

May I ask you to compare BHKU-OE Black Hawk-KU with Nova Prime?

Both have 5/8/5 movement profile.
Both have 12 ER Medium Lasers (Inner Sphere variety in case of BHKU-OE, of course).

Sure, Black Hawk-KU has vulnerable IS XL engine. But you may notice that it has one more Double Heat Sink than Nova Prime (19 >18).
On top of that, BHKU-OE sports 200 armor while Nova Prime has only 160 armor (in MWO it would be 400 armor on BHKU-OE > 320 armor on Nova) as default.

To summarize it, BHKU-OE can imitate Clan 'Mech quite nicely, if needed (within limitations of IS technology).