43 replies to this topic

[Ursh]

With the current alpha-warrior online things, you can strip someone out in two volleys, relying on your teammates to finish them, except in a lot of matches they've put you with people who are literally waiting to the end of the match to show themselves and shoot people. They'll never expose themselves while there are enemy mechs firing anything more than small lasers in their general direction.

So you can end a match with good damage, good teamwork, but zero kills, and almost no assists because you were one of the only 4 guys who were actually shooting people, and the 12-2 stomp resulted in no kills that were credited to you.

Even with 1 day of premium time, I'm struggling to level my hellbringers because I'm in ELO hell and the rewards for losses in these stomp games are completely unacceptable. I get like 200 more xp than the guy who did absolutely nothing but fire a couple of lrm 5s for 120 damage the entire match.

TL/DR Why do I get rewarded for less in a try-hard loss than I get rewarded in a poor-performance win?

I had a win today where I scored 74 damage because i died in the first two minutes due to rounding a corner and meeting a dw/kc welcoming committee who could actually shoot. I got 1500 xp from that win.

I've got losses with over 400 damage but zero kills where I got 600 xp with premium time.

This makes me angry. In one match i clearly did better, but I'm rewarded for being a scrub in a winning match where I contributed nothing other than using up a bit of the enemy team's ammo.

Edited by Ursh, 18 July 2015 - 09:35 AM.

[FitzSimmons]

While it sometimes sucks that rewards are so kill/assist based, I can assure you there are great rewards out there for other actions. However, you're not as likely to get them in a heavy or assault.

Namely:
Flanking - common for me to get 8-12 of these in my KFX. You get 1,500 CBills each, not sure on XP rewards.
TAG dmg/kills - LRM boats don't get as much, but my streak crow can often hit 40,000 CBills total from this. TAG is a terrific money/exp maker if you can keep it trained on a mech, which is harder to do while piloting a slower, less maneuverable mech.
Counter ECM (50 per?) - press J more often when you see you're under enemy ECM.
Component Destruction - Even though you might be doing 400dmg, if you're all laser vomit you might be spreading dmg too much to see as many as these. Focused damage can punch through armor into the juicy bits easier. 2+ MGs also get you these more often if you're in close. Throw gauss on that HBR and a targetting computer will help.
Spotting Assist - since you have ECM you can try to hold locks more for this reward. Harder to remain unseen in a heavy/assault though, so this can be difficult.

Good luck!

Edited by FitzSimmons, 18 July 2015 - 09:49 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ursh, on 18 July 2015 - 09:35 AM, said:

With the current alpha-warrior online things, you can strip someone out in two volleys, relying on your teammates to finish them, except in a lot of matches they've put you with people who are literally waiting to the end of the match to show themselves and shoot people. They'll never expose themselves while there are enemy mechs firing anything more than small lasers in their general direction.

So you can end a match with good damage, good teamwork, but zero kills, and almost no assists because you were one of the only 4 guys who were actually shooting people, and the 12-2 stomp resulted in no kills that were credited to you.

Even with 1 day of premium time, I'm struggling to level my hellbringers because I'm in ELO hell and the rewards for losses in these stomp games are completely unacceptable. I get like 200 more xp than the guy who did absolutely nothing but fire a couple of lrm 5s for 120 damage the entire match.

TL/DR Why do I get rewarded for less in a try-hard loss than I get rewarded in a poor-performance win?

I had a win today where I scored 74 damage because i died in the first two minutes due to rounding a corner and meeting a dw/kc welcoming committee who could actually shoot. I got 1500 xp from that win.

I've got losses with over 400 damage but zero kills where I got 600 xp with premium time.

This makes me angry. In one match i clearly did better, but I'm rewarded for being a scrub in a winning match where I contributed nothing other than using up a bit of the enemy team's ammo.

Cause winners get the spoils and Losers get to go home.

[Ursh]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 July 2015 - 09:49 AM, said:

Cause winners get the spoils and Losers get to go home.

Uhh, I've gotten a better record than you.

When the current system decides who the winners are before the match starts, it's very frustrating for players who are actually trying, when the system is expecting them to absolutely carry their team with some 6 kill, 800+ match. Honestly I wish it would group me with a bunch of LRM mechs, because at least those newbies might pull the fecking trigger and hit the enemy a couple of times per match. I've had matches today where I scored less than 200 damage, thought I was bad, and then discovered that people who lived over 8 minutes longer than I did actually scored less.

That's literally impossible to do without spending almost all of their time hiding until the enemy finally found them and then brutally gunned them down in a swarm of fire.

[Jman5]

The reward system is fundamentally imbalanced in favor of kill-shots. It's really unfortunate because the old reward system was actually more fair in this regard, but for whatever reason they decided to make kill stealing a thing to worry about. The only reasons there isn't a serious outcry is the fact that the reward system is hidden away on the second screen and most people simply don't realize how they are getting screwed.

Let's take two hypothetical situations to illustrate my point

Scenario 1: You do a ton of damage to a mech, but someone comes in at the last minute and steals your kill.

Assist: 2,500
Kill Most Damage: 5,000

Total: 7,500


Scenario 2: You do a ton of damage to a mech and get the killshot

Kill: 4,000
Component destruction: 2,300
Kill Most damage: 5,000
Solo Kill: 10,000

Total: 21,300

One little point of damage at the end screwed you out of 13,800 cbills. Now multiply that over several kills you earned all but in name, and you're looking at a huge chunk of change.

The biggest problem has to do with the fact that earning a solo kill also earns you a kill most damage. I don't know why they went back on their previous design philosophy to make killshots so important. If I had to guess, I would say they weren't really thinking and just slapped a bunch of rewards into the game and then watched the cbill numbers at a macro level.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ursh, on 18 July 2015 - 09:59 AM, said:

Uhh, I've gotten a better record than you.

When the current system decides who the winners are before the match starts, it's very frustrating for players who are actually trying, when the system is expecting them to absolutely carry their team with some 6 kill, 800+ match. Honestly I wish it would group me with a bunch of LRM mechs, because at least those newbies might pull the fecking trigger and hit the enemy a couple of times per match. I've had matches today where I scored less than 200 damage, thought I was bad, and then discovered that people who lived over 8 minutes longer than I did actually scored less.

That's literally impossible to do without spending almost all of their time hiding until the enemy finally found them and then brutally gunned them down in a swarm of fire.

And that means what? Are you just a PUG? Are you younger than me with sharper reflexes? I win plenty and kill enough to be an asset to many teams. Depending on my team's over all Elo average.
What makes you think I don't actually try to win?

Every player is expected to carry their own weight. 12%(ish) of any match. anything over and you are just hot Dogging.

[Xmith]

Ursh, on 18 July 2015 - 09:59 AM, said:

Uhh, I've gotten a better record than you.

When the current system decides who the winners are before the match starts, it's very frustrating for players who are actually trying, when the system is expecting them to absolutely carry their team with some 6 kill, 800+ match. Honestly I wish it would group me with a bunch of LRM mechs, because at least those newbies might pull the fecking trigger and hit the enemy a couple of times per match. I've had matches today where I scored less than 200 damage, thought I was bad, and then discovered that people who lived over 8 minutes longer than I did actually scored less.

That's literally impossible to do without spending almost all of their time hiding until the enemy finally found them and then brutally gunned them down in a swarm of fire.

Sorry boss, only winners get sprinkles on their cupcake.

[Khobai]

best thing they could do is revise the scoring to get rid of kill stealing and assists

instead players should be rewarded fractional kills based on how much damage they did to the destroyed mech

so if you did 10% of the damage you get .1 kills. If you did 90% of the damage you get .9 kills

[Ursh]

It's stupid. In a match where you don't have idiot teammates, you fry someone's CT and someone else finishes them 2 seconds later. In these chickenpoop pug games, no one finishes the almost dead guy, because they're all hiding. So you never get any credit for a kill that doesn't happen, because you were dumb enough to cool off instead of pursuing that one dude to finish him, and then get fried afterwards.

[FitzSimmons]

Khobai, on 18 July 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

best thing they could do is revise the scoring to get rid of kill stealing and assists

instead players should be rewarded fractional kills based on how much damage they did to the destroyed mech

so if you did 10% of the damage you get .1 kills. If you did 90% of the damage you get .9 kills

Light Queue: 0%

[Nathan Foxbane]

I have noticed no one has mentioned that losing team does not get the salvage bonus. Not always that much, but it makes a difference.

Besides most non-kill rewards are fixed at what they earn per condition met. Winning team probably just did better at racking up reward conditions.

Edited by Nathan Foxbane, 18 July 2015 - 10:30 AM.

[Mystere]

Well, it's good then that the reward that means most to me are the tears of my victims, vast flowing rivers of male nerd rage tears. <maniacal >

And if you don't want to grind, then buy stuff, preferably Mechs with income bonuses.

[Odinvolk]

Played for a few hours today, not very well (do i ever, really?), glanced at credit count and its 11 mil. Nothing i want to buy though. I see no problems with rewards, seriously. Just play for a while w/o expecting to get it all from one game, and you will be fine.

[Ursh]

Mystere, on 18 July 2015 - 10:28 AM, said:

Well, it's good then that the reward that means most to me are the tears of my victims, vast flowing rivers of male nerd rage tears. <maniacal >

And if you don't want to grind, then buy stuff, preferably Mechs with income bonuses.

Eff you.

I've spent over $400 on this game. Mechs with income bonuses don't work unless the income is big enough for the 30% to actually matter, and in most losses it's absolutely not.

Especially now that losses tend to be stomps, rather than 1-2 finishes.

[DAYLEET]

Ursh, on 18 July 2015 - 09:59 AM, said:

When the current system decides who the winners are before the match starts, it's very frustrating

When the MM puts you in a match with odds against you, as opposed to decide who will win, it's your chance to shine, if you lose be at peace with it and carry move on.(bad choice of word lol)

[Wrathful Scythe]

The assist/kill rewards should be based on percentage of the damage led to the kill. Lets say a kill nets you 25k spacebucks and you've done 100 damage to an Atlas. Another player pops up and also does 100 damage to said Atlas. Every player gets 12,5k spacebuck and maybe the one getting the kill gets 1k on top of that. That would kill the kill-stealing because the only value you earn is that 1 kill for your important K/D ratio. Off course, oneshotting someone with a lucky 30 damage to the cockpit will get you instant 25k marvelous spacebucks. Shooting of components will also net some money additionally but the killing shot will not net you any destroyed component.

We could even further this system and giving lights a bigger maximum reward.

for example:
Lights --> 35k spacebucks
mediums --> 30k spacebucks
heavys --> 25k spacebucks
assaults --> 25k spacebucks

A jenner does 50 damage to open up a centurion while the dragon kills it with additional 50 damage. The jenner gets 17,5k while the dragon gets 15k + the 1k for the kill.
I would also love to see rewards based on what was actually killed. A Direwolf should net you significantly more money than a locust. But lets keep it simple for now.

Now combine this system with our matchmaker and give a percentage based bonus to the earnings in a match. The average should be 25% on each class. The light queue is on 10% currently so light pilots would get +15% bonus on their earnings the moment they pressed "play". The logical counterpart to this would be having a 45% heavy queue giving a reward penalty of 20% but I would be strongly against it. I hate cutting rewards and punish playes.

Obviously, we also need to increase other means of payments because the current integration of "rolewarfare" is a joke. No wonder the heavy-queue is at roughly 40-50% all the time, except when new mechs are released.

[Ursh]

DAYLEET, on 18 July 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:

When the MM puts you in a match with odds against you, as opposed to decide who will win, it's your chance to shine, if you lose be at peace with it and carry move on.(bad choice of word lol)

No, it's your chance to carry, and it's stupid because your ability to carry may be based on people following orders. In Pugs people do their own thing, and the mic doesn't work for me because I've attached it by usb. Apparently pgi hates that, and only recognizes mics from the mic jack. Because that's the kind of amateur stuff we expect from PGI, and they always deliver.

[Xmith]

Ursh, on 18 July 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

It's stupid. In a match where you don't have idiot teammates, you fry someone's CT and someone else finishes them 2 seconds later. In these chickenpoop pug games, no one finishes the almost dead guy, because they're all hiding. So you never get any credit for a kill that doesn't happen, because you were dumb enough to cool off instead of pursuing that one dude to finish him, and then get fried afterwards.

You have been a victim of teamwork.

It's a common occurrence that strikes a proportionate number of pilots in the PUG queue.

Contrary to most belief, pick up gamers can play as a team. There will always be one or more on a team that are into their own statistical world and call their teammates idiots, but that's okay, it's expected. Their contribution could be a positive toward a win.

[Mystere]

Ursh, on 18 July 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:

Eff you.

Touchy.

Ursh, on 18 July 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:

I've spent over $400 on this game. Mechs with income bonuses don't work unless the income is big enough for the 30% to actually matter, and in most losses it's absolutely not.

Especially now that losses tend to be stomps, rather than 1-2 finishes.

If you're already $400 into the game, you should be at the point where you're worrying less about income and rewards.

[Sjorpha]

I don't mind the win/loss discrepancy or the kill bonuses so much, that all evens out across matches.

What I do mind, a lot, is that damage and kills pay more than fulfilling the primary objectives in conquest and assault. That's ****** up, clearly the primary win condition should give larger payout than the secondary.