31 replies to this topic

[TWIAFU]

Without content, meaning the reason 'why' we are taking planets, there really is not much of a driving force TO play.

Right now, the content is our Unit tag over a planet. Without the reason why we want that planet there is no reward to taking it.

No reward, no reason to take risk.

We need the CW content. The reward of planet ownership. Rewards drive gameplay. To get people into CW we need it to provide rewards, beyond LP.

You know what, if we all didn't WANT to play CW, we all would not be here always talking about it. It needs the content/rewards to keep people there. It needs depth.

[Alistair Winter]

TWIAFU, on 23 July 2015 - 10:22 AM, said:

Without content, meaning the reason 'why' we are taking planets, there really is not much of a driving force TO play.
Right now, the content is our Unit tag over a planet. Without the reason why we want that planet there is no reward to taking it.
No reward, no reason to take risk.

As a counter-argument, there's no external goals in the regular public matches. Conquest, Assault, Skirmish. There's no extra rewards beyond the C-bills and XP. But it's still a lot more popular. This leads me to think the 'why' isn't really important. If people are having a lot of fun, they won't care about the bells and whistles.

I think people just aren't having fun with CW. I doubt there are people who are having great fun, but quitting CW because there aren't any extra rewards for taking planets. After all, there are no extra rewards in public matches either.

[Black Ivan]

The problem for CW is manifold.

It lacks immersion in depth and looks simply like the the standard ques with planets. There are no campaigns, missions and so on that make a player think "Oh wow, yes it is worth fighting for" or a unit "We need this planet for this beneft". By is is simply a map with various planets which all look strangly similar mapwise.

On the other hand the mode is totally repellent of Solo players. CW should IMO give something for both parties to do. Big units could do the heavy lifting in form of invasion forces while Solo or Pugs do scouting, escort and so on. (I know I will burn for this comment )

Adding logistics and various drop deck sizes would add interesting elements as well.

On a more personal side I do not have fun in CW. It takes up a lot of time to get a single match and the rewards a meager.

Edited by Black Ivan, 23 July 2015 - 10:04 PM.

[Summon3r]

Kin3ticX, on 21 July 2015 - 05:51 PM, said:

A lot of the problems with CW revolve around stubborn and non-adaptive players. There is a downright refusal to deal with the CW learning curve.

i respectfully disagree 100%:

the initial enthusiasm over CW was awesome! then came NOTHING, which we are still at.... along with nothing came the awful gen rushes (yes i know L2P and stuff, taktix and stuff), pugs and small groups had nothing to counter the rushes VS an averagely put together 8-12 man......

then came the spawn camps (again L2P and stuff, taktix and stuff)

the never ending pug stomps which i was part (both for and against) of for a few months before i threw in the boredom towel

so now we are here, no content, same map design over and over, a CW population that may as well not even be called a population.

i would not call myself a stubborn and non adaptive player, i would how ever call myself an extremely bored player, and the only fun i ever have now are the odd night that myself and 2 or 3 pals get together and PRAY our small group will meet other small groups and have a remotely close battle.

[TWIAFU]

Alistair Winter, on 23 July 2015 - 09:10 PM, said:

As a counter-argument, there's no external goals in the regular public matches. Conquest, Assault, Skirmish. There's no extra rewards beyond the C-bills and XP. But it's still a lot more popular. This leads me to think the 'why' isn't really important. If people are having a lot of fun, they won't care about the bells and whistles.

I think people just aren't having fun with CW. I doubt there are people who are having great fun, but quitting CW because there aren't any extra rewards for taking planets. After all, there are no extra rewards in public matches either.

To counter counter, hehe...

But those modes were not designed to have "extra rewards", CW was.

Well, we already know why people are not having fun in CW, they tell us each and every day. Over and over. Hyper inflated and overly blown exaggerations that boils down to one thing; dropping SOLO in the GROUP/UNIT focused game.

The why is important as well as the rewards. We would not have nearly the solo player CW hatefest if there were not such low hanging rewards for LP.

[Triordinant]

Alistair Winter, on 23 July 2015 - 09:10 PM, said:

I think people just aren't having fun with CW. I doubt there are people who are having great fun, but quitting CW because there aren't any extra rewards for taking planets. After all, there are no extra rewards in public matches either.

It's very simple. CW caters to Units and players that like to group up. The vast majority of MWO players can't or won't group up and prefer to play solo. It's unlikely those soloists will have fun in a game mode that caters to Units and grouping up. It's not impossible for soloists to have fun in CW, but the vast majority of them would rather just drop in the solo-only queue if they want to have fun.

As long as CW favors organized Units and premade groups (and to be clear, there's nothing wrong with that), it will never attract more than a fifth of the playerbase at best -which is fine.

Edited by Triordinant, 28 July 2015 - 09:59 AM.

[shadowwolf jerricho]

CW is still fun, even though the Planets mean nothing. I was hoping for a Planetary type League focus with economy, fights actually meaning something, etc. CW should be a unit based mode and cut out solo players, we have the Pug queue for that, I understand not everyone wants to be with a unit but Battletech/MechWarrior is a team based game, always has been.

It would be great if PGI could institute an economics system, jumpship system and maybe a nightly WoT type tournament style Planetary fight. It would force unit commanders to actually build drop decks based on available mechs, cost effective Mechs, planning on actual salvage, plus the Cbills and repair costs of said fights. Nightly winners of these Planet fights earn MC as rewards. Give each Planet say 3 attack zones, line up the attackers, have them fight it out, then the last battle will actually be for that Planetary sector. Only holders of all 3 zones earn MC rewards.

I apologize for this post, it seems I am kinda all over the place but you get the gist.

[50 50]

I'm going to go with content and depth outside the matches.
While I do want to see a lot more with the matches themselves, I feel a big BIG chunk of functionality is needed outside of it.

• population balancing
  
• unit interactions for contracts and alliances
  
• planet 'quirks'
  
• distinct mercenary and loyalist mechanics, incentives and rewards

...it just goes on really.
But it's the depth in CW that is really lacking and in need of some serious programmer love.

[Kin3ticX]

50 50, on 29 July 2015 - 12:06 AM, said:

I'm going to go with content and depth outside the matches.
While I do want to see a lot more with the matches themselves, I feel a big BIG chunk of functionality is needed outside of it.

• population balancing
  
• unit interactions for contracts and alliances
  
• planet 'quirks'
  
• distinct mercenary and loyalist mechanics, incentives and rewards

...it just goes on really.
















But it's the depth in CW that is really lacking and in need of some serious programmer love.

Lets clarify planet specific rewards as "perks". I often confuse the two . I also think these perks should be significant and should have 2-week cooldowns meaning they wear off as the fronts move around. This is because the way attack lanes work right now, planets often get permanently buried behind the front until the end of the season.

-Planets known to have mech factories can give faction mech discounts (Kurita: panthers/dragons, Steiner: Zeus, Commando) Maybe in practice these dont always turn out to be the current meta, but its a nice bone to throw to those that appreciate following lore accurately.

-Major planets or popular special lore planets can have MC or Cbills at stake. So im thinking of like.....Somerset, Wolcott, Outreach, Chara(pacifica training grounds)...stuff like that. If each faction had 2 of these it might be cool.

-Perhaps some planets offer faction specific camo discounts to mercs or loyalists that hold them.

-Regular run of the mill planets can have +Cbills, +LP, +notoriety, +GXP

-The way planet perks stack could be very limited and shouldn't stack or interrupt sales weekend sales.


This is all based on the idea that the current 1-20 rewards are alone an ineffective incentive for people to play CW THAT MUCH. The current rewards beyond level 6 are nice for the most dedicated CW players. I have leveled 4 or 5 factions to rank 10 and 1 of those to 15 and many have played far more. That is probably 10,000 MC worth of stuff so far. Coolness.

However, the stakes on the planets need to be raised and perhaps even just token planet perks could do the trick for starters.

We also could try a faction reward system that automatically responds to the movement of players and large merc units. However, supply side incentives only work well with a good supply of players. It feels like we have too many factions for faction rewards to work. As of the last event, 3 of 10 factions were dead, one of which has an elevated faction reward. I suggest we keep all the faction choices open but pair factions into hard alliances.. breaking lore if necessary. This would bring the #of factions down to 5 as far as the map is concerned. It is true that both tech bases have defense pacts, but it is still possible for players to be isolated from action when CW is the least populated.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 29 July 2015 - 01:54 AM.

[Deathlike]

Alistair Winter, on 20 July 2015 - 07:18 PM, said:

I'll give you 3 options and you pick the thing that you would fix first to make CW more enjoyable. You only get to pick one thing. If you reply to say "All of the above" like some smart-a**, God will make your children mildly allergic to peanuts.

So... if you only could fix one thing, which would you fix?

• Wait time and/or queue system - This is basically whatever it takes to let people find matches faster. Whether it means recruiting more players, creating a galaxy-wide pool for House Loyalists, or whatever. Pick this one if you think the long waiting time to find a match is the biggest problem in CW.
  
• Maps and game modes. Pretty self-explanatory. Pick this one if you think the map design and the Invasion and Counter-Invasion game modes (with the O-gens and the gates and the Omega cannon) is the biggest problem in CW.
  
• Content and depth outside the matches. I'm talking about stuff like logistics, special bonuses and rewards for capturing certain planets, managing jumpships for your unit, jump points, faction rewards, mercenary leaderboards or whatever else you can think of. Pick this if you want a more complex framework around the matches themselves, to give the matches more meaning.

The smart arse in me really wants to tell you it's all 3, because it's true regardless of what anyone things. However, since you wanted a more serious answer, I'll oblige and say it's the rewards... which is point #3. However, this is TIED to point #2 at the hip, because these are actually interrelated. Let me explain.

For point #1 to be the focus, this REQUIRES that CW itself IS a good mode for everyone. That's the problem. It isn't, and it shows. So, fixing that first is like trying to fix California's water crisis. Just because you raise prices to deter the people from using it doesn't actually solve the problem. You actually have to deal with the issue directly somehow... whether it is importing... scaring the bejeesus out of people when they don't have their water (just shut it off for a day and see what chaos ensues - not that I'd endorse the idea, but just see the kind of panic that'll occur - something worth learning).

Fixing PUG vs groups won't fix anything. People still played this game despite having a no-skill/no-Elo based queue back in Open Beta and the actual thing that hurt population was essentially "culling" teamwork through the 4-man premade cap (8 or 12-man ONLY was the other option).


For #2, the modes are actually crippling. Right now the gens serve less of a purpose these days, due to be "relocated" near Omega. Seriously, there's no tactical play here anymore. The maps are woefully predictable, and while they honestly need revamping, they are designed just like every MWO map... you know more or less where they are coming from... and you set up or push @ designated points. It's not that hard to call a drop when there's little to no complications stemming from it. It's so much "sub-thinking man's shooter" that it's depressing. CW needs more variety anyways, and it's not as if it can't be accomplished. It's just that thinking the 4-man/4v4 thing would be the panacea is completely misguided. Sure it'll be a change of pace, but I doubt by the designs of all the other modes in this game (simply being minimally viable) that it will come and go like a fart into the wind.


#3 is the biggest issue. Even if you can get your heads wrapped around all the bad designs and decisions, the rewards honestly do not match up with solid matches (or roflstomps) in the non-CW queues. The time spent vs the rewards gained don't make a lick of sense in the grand scheme of things... and that's if you like grinding for the LP to get to Rank 20.

It's just not meaningful. So.. if it was decided that Luthien was attacked back in Beta 1 (which was the case, due to sheer irony and bad coding), people would actually DO IT and DEFEND because it was something worthwhile and would not need a specific/special event (like Tukayyid). However, you can't do that INDEFINITELY and assume it'll work. You have to have good rewards... good structure.. just good design. None of which were seen on display in the "hardcore unit" event.

There is literally NO MEANINGFUL INTERACTION between what you do in CW and what happens LONG TERM as an endgame. If "Clan Mercstar" decided to "collect every planet" like Pokemon, then great, except this does "what exactly" outside of the obligatory "PGI announcement" informing everyone of their success?

As there is no purpose to CW, you can't even have meaningful conversions of "what it could have" or "how it could be better" when the fundamental structure provides little to nothing for EVERY faction, including Mercs. So it's just a game of "let's see if this faction wants to show up" and proceed to see barely anyone pop their heads up to the call.


PGI literally has to rework the fundamentals to CW, from top to bottom. CW could be significantly better than it is now as it simply hurts to mention "CW" as "another mode with 4 mech drops" because that IS the actual bottom line.

Sometimes the joke is the reality, and CW is a terrible joke no matter how PGI thinks "this one addition" is the solution. It's fine to take time the build the foundation, but given very little insight to how they are proceeding and the processes they are going through to "add more content" to CW.. (and given the current CW track record), there is no end in sight... no light @ the end of this tunnel... they have to actually genuinely TRY to build a good mode and keep working on it hard. You can't have arse this thing. This community has accepted less for far too long, and CW could be argued as the straw that broke the back of many. It should be MORE than what it is... and NOT just minimally viable as it currently is.

Summon3r, on 23 July 2015 - 10:07 PM, said:

i respectfully disagree 100%:

the initial enthusiasm over CW was awesome! then came NOTHING, which we are still at.... along with nothing came the awful gen rushes (yes i know L2P and stuff, taktix and stuff), pugs and small groups had nothing to counter the rushes VS an averagely put together 8-12 man......

then came the spawn camps (again L2P and stuff, taktix and stuff)

the never ending pug stomps which i was part (both for and against) of for a few months before i threw in the boredom towel

so now we are here, no content, same map design over and over, a CW population that may as well not even be called a population.

i would not call myself a stubborn and non adaptive player, i would how ever call myself an extremely bored player, and the only fun i ever have now are the odd night that myself and 2 or 3 pals get together and PRAY our small group will meet other small groups and have a remotely close battle.

There's a lot of L2P that is required in CW... while I don't think a turtorial will cover all of that, but part of PGI's responsibility is to "prepare" the wannabe CW player for what's to come and teach the "counters" so to speak. Just even suggesting to bringing a Streakboat to a dropdeck is kinda necessary.. or if you can't use them... to practice legging. Things like that would go a long way in "CW preparedness" because it's a total jungle if you are trying to figure out CW like one would in the regular queues and modes.

Kin3ticX, on 29 July 2015 - 01:21 AM, said:

Lets clarify planet specific rewards as "perks". I often confuse the two . I also think these perks should be significant and should have 2-week cooldowns meaning they wear off as the fronts move around. This is because the way attack lanes work right now, planets often get permanently buried behind the front until the end of the season.

-Planets known to have mech factories can give faction mech discounts (Kurita: panthers/dragons, Steiner: Zeus, Commando) Maybe in practice these dont always turn out to be the current meta, but its a nice bone to throw to those that appreciate following lore accurately.

-Major planets or popular special lore planets can have MC or Cbills at stake. So im thinking of like.....Somerset, Wolcott, Outreach, Chara(pacifica training grounds)...stuff like that. If each faction had 2 of these it might be cool.

-Perhaps some planets offer faction specific camo discounts to mercs or loyalists that hold them.

-Regular run of the mill planets can have +Cbills, +LP, +notoriety, +GXP

-The way planet perks stack could be very limited and shouldn't stack or interrupt sales weekend sales.


This is all based on the idea that the current 1-20 rewards are alone an ineffective incentive for people to play CW THAT MUCH. The current rewards beyond level 6 are nice for the most dedicated CW players. I have leveled 4 or 5 factions to rank 10 and 1 of those to 15 and many have played far more. That is probably 10,000 MC worth of stuff so far. Coolness.

However, the stakes on the planets need to be raised and perhaps even just token planet perks could do the trick for starters.

We also could try a faction reward system that automatically responds to the movement of players and large merc units. However, supply side incentives only work well with a good supply of players. It feels like we have too many factions for faction rewards to work. As of the last event, 3 of 10 factions were dead, one of which has an elevated faction reward. I suggest we keep all the faction choices open but pair factions into hard alliances.. breaking lore if necessary. This would bring the #of factions down to 5 as far as the map is concerned. It is true that both tech bases have defense pacts, but it is still possible for players to be isolated from action when CW is the least populated.

I don't think "merging" factions would solve anything (or expanding them for that matter - given some people's responses). There is a certainly a large Davion and Steiner contingent, but AFAIK the majority of them DO NOT PLAY CW. The bigger problems is actually the playability of CW itself where it has not lent to "repeat play". If you enjoy something, you'll probably keep playing it more. If you hate something, you'll probably play it less. It's really as simple as that.

A lot of the dynamics in CW NEEDS to be dynamic.... otherwise leaving the "buff Clans" indefinitely will never fix the state of GB in CW, nor will it help a faction like Marik to bother playing CW for whatever the reason is (which is probably CW being bad). The more "fixed" and "boring" CW is, the less anyone would give a rat's arse to play CW. It's that simple.

Edited by Deathlike, 29 July 2015 - 02:25 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Alistair Winter, on 23 July 2015 - 04:28 AM, said:

Why Bryan specifically? Because Transverse drained PGI of the resources that should have gone into CW?


I'm a vegetarian. I could add a salad option, if you want


This doesn't quite explain why the big units aren't playing more CW though. There seems to be a general drop in activity that is hard to explain by wait time, because wait time for big groups during prime hours seems pretty good. At least it used to be.


That would be very surprising to me, if this was a major part of the explanation. There were so many players looking forward to CW who knew that it would revolve around teamwork, and the MWO is a pretty unique game to begin with, with a fairly steep learning curve. Players who are innately stubborn and non-adaptive wouldn't have a good time with this game.


Yeah, I put that down to people who are bored with the simple game modes of public matches, yet don't have time to get into a unit with standardized dropdecks, teamspeak servers and the whole deal that adds precious minutes to limited game time. They're upset because MWO doesn't have a good alternative for people who want the depth of MW2, MW3 or MW4-style missions, with convoy escorts, sabotage missions or recon missions. And frankly, even if you do have time for CW, it's still a fairly simplistic game mode with fairly shallow levels of tactics and strategy, I think.

I totally get what you're saying, but I also emphathize with people who love Mechwarrior games, yet fall between two stools because they want a quick match with deep gameplay.

Hopefully, those complaints should be reduced a little bit when we get 4v4 and PVE.

this only worked in MWX because AI was dump as hell and you were a solo hero going around. I like playing with and against other people. But those missiosn would not really work vs people. And a MW:LL style, which is great to play for battling over bases is probably not possible this way with the MWO engine. Maybe the servers would explode that way. But having this with the MWO mechs and graphics would be really epic.

Edited by Lily from animove, 29 July 2015 - 03:13 AM.

[Hades Trooper]

Cw should be like pick up game land.

One Que for groups

Another Que for solo puggers