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Missiles Have A Weird Lock.on Hitbox

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#1 Hit the Deck

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 05:16 AM

Alistair Winter's post on another thread made me investigate the lock-on mechanism in our game. As it turns out (perhaps you're already aware), the size of the "lock-on hitbox" or "lockbox" changes as you move away or closer to the target. At longer ranges, this "lockbox" is getting bigger proportionally to the 'Mech's silhouette. Let me show you a couple of pics to illustrate:

Posted Image

At 200m (sorry for the low res!), this is as close as you can to move the crosshair to the target Mech before you achieve a lock-on. If we move away from the target, we should expect that the "lockbox" size to stay in the same proportion to the target Mech right? Not quite:

Posted Image

Please note that the image is magnified by 2x (zoomed-in).

This is as near as the crosshair can come up to the target before achieving a lock-on. As it stands, the lockbox at ~761m is way bigger in proportion to the target Mech. Perhaps this is an intended feature by PGI so that it's not too hard to achieve a lock-on from long ranges and to keep the lock box always inside the "red target lock square" (this red target lock square shrinks in size until a certain point and it doesn't decrease further the farther away you go from the target). If the image is not magnified, the crosshair would be inside the "red target lock square".

What do you say? Should the "lockbox" stay in proportion to the target 'Mech? I suggest that you try this in training ground if you are not sure about this. Sorry if I'm wrong because this is just from one test.

#2 Midax

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 05:24 AM

I say they make LRMs reticule tracking in LOS and there won't be a lockbox. TAG and NARC should be a R target the mech and your have lock because the spotter got the LRM lock for you.

#3 Rhaythe

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 05:25 AM

I'd rather it get smaller. This kind of simulates the -2 penalty you get from moving to long range from medium in tabletop. But speaking from a military HUD display, it makes sense. The display doesn't care how far the mech is as long as it's being tracked.

#4 Alistair Winter

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 08:59 AM

Well, you know how I feel about this. I'd definitely prefer if it was harder to get target locks at long distances. Especially against fast moving lights and mediums, it should be a bit tricky to get a target lock, just like it's hard to get target locks on fast and agile fighters in combat sims / space sims.

One of the reasons LRMs aren't used very much at higher levels of play, is because PGI has balanced them to be good weapons for people who don't have a good aim. They are low skill, low reward weapons. Gauss weapons are high skill, high reward. I'm not saying you have to be Jesus to do ok with a Gauss Jager, but in terms of pure hand-eye coordination, gauss rifles are harder to hit with, LRMs are easy to hit with.

If PGI made it harder to get target locks, they could improve the stats of LRMs without making them overpowered. Specifically, they could do things like increasing missile speed. Low missile speed and long travel times is why LRMs are often completely ineffective against good players who use cover. Low missile speed is also why dumb firing LRMs against ECM-protected target is almost always doomed to fail.

If PGI increased projectile speed to the point where LRMs were a nice damage boost to lasers at long range, the same way that SRMs are a nice damage boost to lasers at short range, I would be a happy man. Imagine seeing lots of Timber Wolves and Summoners that actually kept their LRM launchers equipped to complement their lasers at long range. That would be pretty cool.

And as a bonus, making it more difficult to get target locks would probably dampen some of the QQ when people get killed by LRMs. :)

#5 Dino Might

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 09:12 AM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 24 July 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

Well, you know how I feel about this. I'd definitely prefer if it was harder to get target locks at long distances. Especially against fast moving lights and mediums, it should be a bit tricky to get a target lock, just like it's hard to get target locks on fast and agile fighters in combat sims / space sims.

One of the reasons LRMs aren't used very much at higher levels of play, is because PGI has balanced them to be good weapons for people who don't have a good aim. They are low skill, low reward weapons. Gauss weapons are high skill, high reward. I'm not saying you have to be Jesus to do ok with a Gauss Jager, but in terms of pure hand-eye coordination, gauss rifles are harder to hit with, LRMs are easy to hit with.

If PGI made it harder to get target locks, they could improve the stats of LRMs without making them overpowered. Specifically, they could do things like increasing missile speed. Low missile speed and long travel times is why LRMs are often completely ineffective against good players who use cover. Low missile speed is also why dumb firing LRMs against ECM-protected target is almost always doomed to fail.

If PGI increased projectile speed to the point where LRMs were a nice damage boost to lasers at long range, the same way that SRMs are a nice damage boost to lasers at short range, I would be a happy man. Imagine seeing lots of Timber Wolves and Summoners that actually kept their LRM launchers equipped to complement their lasers at long range. That would be pretty cool.

And as a bonus, making it more difficult to get target locks would probably dampen some of the QQ when people get killed by LRMs. :)


I'd prefer that missiles travel about twice as fast as they do now and try to lead the target like modern missile systems, but that they have a limited turn radius, so that a full deflection shot against a 150 kph light is likely to miss entirely. Much like in flight simulators, when you fire a missile at an enemy aircraft heading perpendicular to you at relatively close range, the missile can't turn hard enough to get the appropriate lead and will miss the target. From farther away, the missile has more room to turn and gain an appropriate lead on the target, so it has a much better chance to hit from a simple fire control geometry point of view.

This would allow us to remove the min range damage falloff. Missiles deal full damage at any range more than about 20 meters (this is only to prevent face hugging LRM 60 splat attacks). For IS, to incorporate the min range penalties, we could reduce or eliminate their turning capability within the first 50, or 100, or 200m.

As for locking onto the target, the mech should have to paint the target mech (reticle on the actual hitboxes of the other mech) for a duration of time to achieve lock, and then the lock remains similar to how it is now, where you only have to be close. Think of it almost like an invisible TAG laser you need to use to designate the target for your on-board fire control systems. Your designation of the target, once lock is achieved, can become a bit more loose, because your targetting computer has coordinated with your other sensors to focus on that particular mech and read it's position based on updates from all of your sensors. To do indirect fire, you need someone to use TAG or NARC to get that lock, which would require only being close (similar to when you already have a lock).

Consider that a laser designator should be almost weightless and tiny, but TAG requires 1 slot and 1 ton because it's the communications uplink to the friendly fire control systems that requires sufficient equipment - this system has to have anti-jamming, encryption, multiple redundancies, shockproof, etc. so that's where it gets more expensive in terms of size and weight. So the mech firing its own missiles has it's own invisible laser designator used to acquire LOS targets, and it costs nothing and weighs nothing. But to do this for another mech, you need TAG or NARC, each of which have the communications capabilities to do so at the appropriate cost in space and weight.

Edited by Dino Might, 24 July 2015 - 09:14 AM.


#6 Hit the Deck

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 09:56 AM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 24 July 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

-post-

I don't know if PGI use how easy it is to make a lock-on as a balance check for LRM but I just find it weird that the lockbox gets bigger as you move farther away from the target (enemy). That aside, making the lockbox scale correctly will indeed makes them harder to "aim" as the distance goes bigger.

As for the "low skill" comment, I don't think that every weapon has to be judged by how hard it is to aim, they can be balance by other means. Just for an illustration purpose, imagine if we have mines in MWO. There's no aiming skill to place a mine but it involves a different set of skill which is knowing where to place it. Say that they can cripple a light Mech in one hit but are very heavy and you can only carry a handful of them plus the enemy can disable one if they find out about its whereabouts.

View PostDino Might, on 24 July 2015 - 09:12 AM, said:

...
This would allow us to remove the min range damage falloff. Missiles deal full damage at any range more than about 20 meters (this is only to prevent face hugging LRM 60 splat attacks). For IS, to incorporate the min range penalties, we could reduce or eliminate their turning capability within the first 50, or 100, or 200m....

The lore reason for IS LRM having 180m min range is because they are always fired in an arching trajectory and have limited turn radius (combined with speed) just like you said so they can't accurately (or just can't) hit target less than 180m. We could actually very well model this in-game if people want it.





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