34 replies to this topic

[slide]

Over the years there has been much debate about the unseen (Macross)/reseen mechs of battle tech lore.

My understanding is that Harmony Gold hold the exclusive rights to the distribution of images pertaining to the original unseen mechs in NA, which prevents other companies such as the former FASA and Wizkids and now PGI from recreating those classic images of the Marauder, Archer etc.

Question 1. Does NA mean USA or include Canada and Mexico as well?

The image rights outside of the USA reside with a Japanese company outside of the jurisdiction of Harmony Gold.

The reseen mech designs are acceptable to HG lawyers for use in NA.

Now I accept that there is nothing that will shift HG from there stance short of nuking their headquaters, however why should the rest of the world suffer because of some bad decisions made by lawyers 30 years ago. I personally don't like the reseen designs.

Given that permission could be gained from the Japanese company and that the weapons load outs and names have nothing to do with HG.

(I'll use the Marauder as an example here but applies to all unseen mechs.)

Question 2: Is it technically possible to render an unseen Marauder (the one we all love) outside of NA/USA whilst rendering a reseen Marauder to those NA players? (Obviously having comparable hit boxes might be an issue)

Question 3: If the above is technically feasible what would the likely ramifications from HG's lawyers be. Assuming appropriate safe gaurds were programmed in place to prevent NA players from bootlegging the models from Euro players and installing on their system (repair tool check at patch time).

Obviously it would suck being a NA player in this case, but could the revenue from a second Pheonix style pack including the remaining unseen mechs, sold exclusively outside of the NA zone justify the work of modeling all these mechs (twice as unseen and reseen). I know I would buy it as would many others. Bare in mind that these images will also affect IIC versions of these mechs as well.

IS the whole thing rendered moot because PGI is based in Canada.? If so their are some nice vacant offices here in Australia.

[El Bandito]

I am fine with just taking a mech that has passing resemblance to the Marauder, and has similar hardpoint locations as the Marauder, but is not named Marauder, instead of the Marauder. Lawsuits are a *****.

We already got the pseudo Warhammer--the Hellbringer--but that's Clan only. So I am semi-content on the Warhammer part. Besides, Hammerhands is certainly a future possibility.

Edited by El Bandito, 17 June 2015 - 10:07 PM.

[Zuri Prime]

Just bring in the Guillotine and I'll be a happy camper.

[Lugin]

Darn it, time to go dig through my old posts....

HG claims they have the image rights, and sue at the drop of a hat.

FASA got permission from Studio Nue, the direct creators of Macross, for the designs.
What HG got was the international (read: localization) distribution rights for Macross from Tatsunoko Productions.

Japanese courts have ruled that Studio Nue owns the Macross IP.

In other words, HG's claim is invalid.
But they have money to sit on, unlike Catalyst, FASA, or PGI.

Conclusion: Sitting on money allows HG to be trolls.

Interestingly, they did nothing about the Longbow when Microsoft released it in the retail version of MW4 Mercs.

Edited by Lugin, 17 June 2015 - 10:37 PM.

[Anjian]

The real question is why even this is happening? The answer is that our copyright and patent system is outrightly broken. That's why patent trolls exist. That's why Apple can take Samsung to court over its "square corners". That's why we have the "look and feel" lawsuits Apple did to Microsoft over Windows. That is why Superman gets to sue Captain Marvel.

There is no logical answer to this. There is no logical outcome to this.

[Kiiyor]

Anjian, on 17 June 2015 - 10:48 PM, said:

The real question is why even this is happening? The answer is that our copyright and patent system is outrightly broken. That's why patent trolls exist. That's why Apple can take Samsung to court over its "square corners". That's why we have the "look and feel" lawsuits Apple did to Microsoft over Windows. That is why Superman gets to sue Captain Marvel.

There is no logical answer to this. There is no logical outcome to this.

The trouble is, lots of companies have to be hyper aggressive in protecting their IP - or it can get taken from them. If a brand name becomes synonymous with that particular item, it can be taken from the copyright holder. Like band-**** (which used to be called sticking plaster, but band aid became synonymous with the product, so it became legal for anyone to take it.

Except HG are just ******* jerks.

[Johnny Z]

Well it wasnt that long ago that everyone was saying that no one would ever get to see or use the unseen mechs. From what everyone is saying now, some company bought some of the rights recently. What the situation is now for Mechwarrior Online and these unseen mechs is up in the air right? Has this recent thing changed anything? More or less chance to see these mechs in game?

Edited by Johnny Z, 17 June 2015 - 10:57 PM.

[Kilo 40]

Anjian, on 17 June 2015 - 10:48 PM, said:

The real question is why even this is happening? The answer is that our copyright and patent system is outrightly broken.

if we're being honest, it's happening because they(FASA) flat out stole those designs and we're still dealing with the repercussions of their decision to do that all these decades later.

[Anjian]

And its about time they should leave those designs behind.

The very idea that those "unseen" would make sales is enough for the lawyers to come knocking.

Recent changes (Sony licensing Robotech IP for movie) only makes HG toughen their stand. So yeah, its worst than ever.

[Joseph Mallan]

El Bandito, on 17 June 2015 - 10:02 PM, said:

I am fine with just taking a mech that has passing resemblance to the Marauder, and has similar hardpoint locations as the Marauder, but is not named Marauder, instead of the Marauder. Lawsuits are a *****.

We already got the pseudo Warhammer--the Hellbringer--but that's Clan only. So I am semi-content on the Warhammer part. Besides, Hammerhands is certainly a future possibility.

The Marauder name isn't part of the lawsuit. It's the look that is. I have a Grasshopper with 2 Medium, 2 PPC & and SRM 4. Its a Warhammer (Warhopper?Grasshammer??)

[Strum Wealh]

slide, on 17 June 2015 - 09:40 PM, said:

Over the years there has been much debate about the unseen (Macross)/reseen mechs of battle tech lore.

My understanding is that Harmony Gold hold the exclusive rights to the distribution of images pertaining to the original unseen mechs in NA, which prevents other companies such as the former FASA and Wizkids and now PGI from recreating those classic images of the Marauder, Archer etc.

Question 1. Does NA mean USA or include Canada and Mexico as well?

The image rights outside of the USA reside with a Japanese company outside of the jurisdiction of Harmony Gold.

The reseen mech designs are acceptable to HG lawyers for use in NA.

Now I accept that there is nothing that will shift HG from there stance short of nuking their headquaters, however why should the rest of the world suffer because of some bad decisions made by lawyers 30 years ago. I personally don't like the reseen designs.

Given that permission could be gained from the Japanese company and that the weapons load outs and names have nothing to do with HG.

(I'll use the Marauder as an example here but applies to all unseen mechs.)

Question 2: Is it technically possible to render an unseen Marauder (the one we all love) outside of NA/USA whilst rendering a reseen Marauder to those NA players? (Obviously having comparable hit boxes might be an issue)

Question 3: If the above is technically feasible what would the likely ramifications from HG's lawyers be. Assuming appropriate safe gaurds were programmed in place to prevent NA players from bootlegging the models from Euro players and installing on their system (repair tool check at patch time).

Obviously it would suck being a NA player in this case, but could the revenue from a second Pheonix style pack including the remaining unseen mechs, sold exclusively outside of the NA zone justify the work of modeling all these mechs (twice as unseen and reseen). I know I would buy it as would many others. Bare in mind that these images will also affect IIC versions of these mechs as well.

IS the whole thing rendered moot because PGI is based in Canada.? If so their are some nice vacant offices here in Australia.

"Studio Nue, Big West, and Tatsunoko filed a series of copyright lawsuits in Japan to reiterate which company owned what in the early 2000s. The result reaffirmed that everything was exactly as it had always been: Studio Nue and Big West co-own the characters, story, etc., and resulting franchise, while Tatsunoko owns the original footage and international licensing rights for the anime and merchandise of The Super Dimension Fortress Macross but not the rest of the franchise—which they had no involvement in making. Thus in turn, Harmony Gold owns the international licensing rights for the anime and merchandise of the original The Super Dimension Fortress Macross which it purchased from Tatsunoko—but nothing from the franchise after that.

So if this was all cleared up in Japanese courts by 2005, why haven't we seen any new Macross in America in the time since then? Simple. Harmony Gold's official stance is that the Japanese court case has no bearing on them nor their Macross distribution rights. Moreover, neither Big West nor Tatsunoko have challenged Harmony Gold's Macross trademark claim in the U.S., and so it remains in place."

"And lest you think the legal ramifications only effect the U.S., Ollie Barder, game designer and mecha expert, asked a French anime distributor about the issues surrounding Macross a few years back. This distributor wanted to bring Macross to Europe, but ran into a similar legal mess.

So until the day Big West or Taktsunoko assert their side of the story in American courts—and possibly those in other countries, Harmony Gold is in de facto control of the Macross franchise outside of Japan."

source

And, for more backstory:

• Super Dimension Fortress Macross (produced by Studio Nue, and distinct from Harmony Gold's Robotech) originally aired on Oct. 03, 1982.
  
• Battledroids (the precursor to BattleTech) was originally released in sometime around August of 1984 (from the court documents, linked below), with FASA using imagery licensed from a group called Twentieth Century Imports (TCI), who in turn (allegedly? - see the from the court documents, linked below) licensed the material from Tatsunoko Productions (more on Tatsunoko below).
  
• Robotech (as distinct from Macross) originally aired on March 04, 1985, using footage from Macross licensed to Harmony Gold USA by Tatsunoko Productions on or about January 15, 1984 (from the court documents, linked below).
  
• "Battledroids" became "BattleTech" sometime in the Fall of 1985 "pursuant to a settlement between FASA and LucasFilm" over use of the term "droid" (from the court documents, linked below).

And all was well... until ~1994.

• FASA CORPORATION and VIRTUAL WORLD ENTERTAINMENT, Plaintiffs, v. PLAYMATES TOYS, INC., Defendant (December 05-07, 1994)
  
• FASA CORPORATION and VIRTUAL WORLD ENTERTAINMENT, Plaintiffs, v. PLAYMATES TOYS, INC., Defendant (June 19-23, 1995)
  
• FASA CORPORATION and VIRTUAL WORLD ENTERTAINMENT, Plaintiffs, v. PLAYMATES TOYS, INC., Defendant (January 22, 1996)

In or around December of 1991, a FASA rep apparently met with a rep from Playmates Toys to discuss production and sales of a BT-related toyline. Playmates apparently declined a license for BT-related toys, but went ahead and produced similar designs for their ExoSquad toyline.

One example - the prime example, arguably - is the "ExoSquad Heavy Attack E-Frame", pictured below and clearly modeled on the Mad Cat:

In response, FASA (along with Virtual World Entertainment) sued Playmates. The details of the proceedings can be read at the above-bulleted links.

And then came the issue with Harmony Gold (who, at the time, had a business relationship with Playmates):

• HARMONY GOLD U.S.A., INC., a corporation, and PLAYMATES TOYS, INC., a corporation, Plaintiffs, v. FASA CORPORATION, a corporation, and VIRTUAL WORLD ENTERTAINMENT, a corporation, Defendants (June 12-13, 1996)
  
• HARMONY GOLD U.S.A., INC, a corporation; and PLAYMATES TOYS, INC., a corporation, Plaintiffs, v. FASA CORPORATION, a corporation; and VIRTUAL WORLD ENTERTAINMENT, a corporation, Defendants (November 06-07, 1996)

And, well, we know what happened from there...

After the hoopla with Harmony Gold, FASA apparently decided it was safer/better to purge all artwork that wasn't produced by in-house artists - thus, the loss of the Dougram designs (BattleMaster, Shadow Hawk, etc), Crusher Joe designs (Locust, etc), and VMI designs (the IICs, Stone Rhino/"Behemoth", Bane/"Kraken", etc) in addition to the loss of the Macross designs - and FASA's successors (Topps, Catalyst, etc) had apparently decided to adopt a similar stance.

In 2002-2005, the Japanese courts determined that Tatsunoko Productions (brought on board to produce the bulk of the actual animation for the original Macross series, and from whom Harmony Gold licensed the materials for Robotech) owns the original footage and international licensing rights for the anime and merchandise of Macross but not the rest of the franchise (in which they had no hand in making), while Studio Nue (who provided the story, characters designs, etc.) and Big West Co. Ltd. (who provided the financial backing for the project) co-own the characters, story, etc., and resulting overall franchise.

Though, as late as 2013, Harmony Gold apparently maintained that their license applies to Macross-based materials outside of the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross series, and had actively worked against other Macross-related projects being released in the US.

And, in March 2015, it was announced that Sony had been granted the rights to produce one or more Robotech films. (source)

[El Bandito]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 June 2015 - 02:57 AM, said:

The Marauder name isn't part of the lawsuit. It's the look that is. I have a Grasshopper with 2 Medium, 2 PPC & and SRM 4. Its a Warhammer (Warhopper?Grasshammer??)

The name is part of the lawsuit, as the BT mech known as "Marauder" was based off of Macross franchise's Zentradi Officer's Battle Pod. And it is the name "Marauder", that is going to bring out thousands of BT fan's dollars to PGI, and HG knows that fact. If PGI ever release Marauder, no matter how different it looks, HG has real possibility of suing PGI anyway, since PGI is cashing on the iconic name of the classic mech. Hence PGI is currently hand's off of the Marauder.

That's why I prefer if PGI simply design a new mech that has some resemblance to the original Marauder, and name it slightly differently--such as the Bandit, or Highwayman. Then it will have much less issue. Cause as you saw the Hellbringer, though resembling the Warhammer, went on sale without an issue. Since MWO is tagged as an apocryphal game (non-canon), I am sure they can come up with new chassis.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 June 2015 - 03:50 AM.

[slide]

Thanks Strum Wealh, that clears up a few things.

[Raggedyman]

slide, on 17 June 2015 - 09:40 PM, said:

Question 1. Does NA mean USA or include Canada and Mexico as well?

Question 2: Is it technically possible to render an unseen Marauder (the one we all love) outside of NA/USA whilst rendering a reseen Marauder to those NA players? (Obviously having comparable hit boxes might be an issue)

Question 3: If the above is technically feasible what would the likely ramifications from HG's lawyers be. Assuming appropriate safe gaurds were programmed in place to prevent NA players from bootlegging the models from Euro players and installing on their system (repair tool check at patch time).

Answer 1 - totally depends on the contract. Standard procedure is to name each country specifically on a contract, unless there are firmly established legal groupings involved, because precision and precise language is what lawyering and contracts are all about.

Answer 2 - yes. you're game has in it a set of skins/models, when you start up the game the server says to your PC'show player 1 as skin A. player 2, skin B, player 3 Skin C.' etc and then sends info on what each player is doing for your PC to interpret. If you have a different skin/model pack then it's the same info just being interpreted differently. You may have problems if the different models have different game shapes though (what the game registers as the models shape, rather than what it shows you) so that could cause problems.

Answer 3 - No clue, really unanswerable. You would have the issue of safe-guards being sufficient, trying to trade on the IP, any contracts anyone else has for other locations, and questions of potential knock-on harm/confusion as opening problems. Throw in "how are HG feeling about their IP this week", "what's global copyright law doing today" and "which way is the wind blowing" to the mix and then make a guesstimate on how much money you could lose vs how much money you could make and the costs involved in keeping that money in your hands.

[Thorn Hallis]

El Bandito, on 18 June 2015 - 03:41 AM, said:

The name is part of the lawsuit, as the BT mech known as "Marauder" was based off of Macross franchise's Zentradi Officer's Battle Pod. And it is the name "Marauder", that is going to bring out thousands of BT fan's dollars to PGI, and HG knows that fact. If PGI ever release Marauder, no matter how different it looks, HG has real possibility of suing PGI anyway, since PGI is cashing on the iconic name of the classic mech. Hence PGI is currently hand's off of the Marauder.

This I doubt. The name of the 'Mechs were used in several publications by FASA, Wizkids and Catalyst alike, all released well after the lawsuits.

[El Bandito]

Thorn Hallis, on 18 June 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

This I doubt. The name of the 'Mechs were used in several publications by FASA, Wizkids and Catalyst alike, all released well after the lawsuits.

I would imagine that HG did not wish to mess with FASA/Activision at the time, during MW2. Unlike PGI.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 June 2015 - 04:38 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

El Bandito, on 18 June 2015 - 03:41 AM, said:

The name is part of the lawsuit, as the BT mech known as "Marauder" was based off of Macross franchise's Zentradi Officer's Battle Pod. And it is the name "Marauder", that is going to bring out thousands of BT fan's dollars to PGI, and HG knows that fact. If PGI ever release Marauder, no matter how different it looks, HG has real possibility of suing PGI anyway, since PGI is cashing on the iconic name of the classic mech. Hence PGI is currently hand's off of the Marauder.

That's why I prefer if PGI simply design a new mech that has some resemblance to the original Marauder, and name it slightly differently--such as the Bandit, or Highwayman. Then it will have much less issue. Cause as you saw the Hellbringer, though resembling the Warhammer, went on sale without an issue. Since MWO is tagged as an apocryphal game (non-canon), I am sure they can come up with new chassis.

Thorn Hallis, on 18 June 2015 - 04:30 AM, said:

This I doubt. The name of the 'Mechs were used in several publications by FASA, Wizkids and Catalyst alike, all released well after the lawsuits.

HG has no claim at all on any aspect of the 'Mechs other than the imagery used to represent them - the chassis names, weapon loads & locations, notable pilots, and so on & so forth are all wholly owned by whoever happens to own BattleTech & MechWarrior at any given time.

The issue is not that there is a 'Mech called "Marauder", it's that the 'Mech called "Marauder" is commonly represented by the image of a Roiquonmi Glaug Battle Pod.
Likewise, the issue is not that there is a 'Mech called "Warhammer", it's that the 'Mech called "Warhammer" is commonly represented by the image of a MBR-04-Mk VI Tomahawk.

A hypothetical MWO Marauder simply needs to match the written descriptions given in the novels and sourcebooks without also being the "Roiquonmi Glaug Battle Pod".

Spoiler

"The black and gray Marauder's eight-meter legs gave it a tall and spindly look, and its dorsal-mounted autocannon rose a full two meters above Grayson's cockpit. Of all the BattleMech designs, Grayson thought the Marauder looked the most sinister, the most deadly. The movement of scanner antennae on either side of its low-mounted cockpit suggested the twitching mouthparts of some monstrous biped crab. Each arm, with vastly swollen vambrace and gauntlet to accommodate the paired PPCs and lasers, created an image of raw, unstoppable power."
- Decision at Thunder Rift, ch. 34

"Grayson had faced a Marauder before. He had, in fact, faced two of them, one after the other in the last struggle at Thunder Rift, on Trellwan. A heavy ‘Mech weighing 75 tons, it moved with a menacing, crablike stride on rear-canted legs, and its oversized forearms mounted paired PPCs and medium lasers. The autocannon protruded from its exposed mount above the egg-shaped hull like a black spear."
- Mercenary's Star, ch. 10

"Standing on back-canted legs that ended in talon-like feet, the Caesar's relationship to the Marauder design was obvious."
"'Caesars often have a slight bow-legged gait,' Marcus explained through clenched teeth as he wrestled with the restraining clip."
- Double Blind, ch. 05

The defining characteristics of the Marauder are:

• "an egg-shaped hull" (the MWO Catapult manages to pull that off),
  
• "the dorsal autocannon" (which does not have to be centered, merely mounted on/toward the dorsal surface),
  
• "oversized forearms" with the appearance of "vastly swollen vambraces & gauntlets",
  
• being leggier than most supermodels (8-meter legs on a 'Mech that is, at most, 14 meters tall (but probably closer to 11-13 meters, given the hunched-over nature of the design)),
  
• walking with a "bouncing", "bow-legged", "crab-like" gait, and
  
• an overall "tall and spindly look".

[ozmodion]

El Bandito, on 18 June 2015 - 04:37 AM, said:

I would imagine that HG did not wish to mess with FASA/Activision at the time, during MW2. Unlike PGI.

agreed.

[Nathan Foxbane]

When Micosoft did the Longbow in MW4:Mercs and I think it was DC, used a Tomahawk look alike in one of their comics HG pretty much cowered in a corner and cried "Yes Mr. 500 lb gorilla, we'll be good." They go after companies when they have a financial advantage over that company.

[reign]

Nathan Foxbane, on 18 June 2015 - 10:36 AM, said:

When Micosoft did the Longbow in MW4:Mercs and I think it was DC, used a Tomahawk look alike in one of their comics HG pretty much cowered in a corner and cried "Yes Mr. 500 lb gorilla, we'll be good." They go after companies when they have a financial advantage over that company.

Basically this, IF MicroSoft stepped in and said OUR rights holder wants these mechs.. and will not use your images. HG would probably just leave it alone.

But maybe some of our more vocal members can get a hold of Phil or the game division of MS and get them on board?

Edited by reign, 18 June 2015 - 10:56 AM.