12 replies to this topic

[ColdHeat]

Hey guys.

While having been a seasoned light and medium pilot from years ago I made quite a long break and now came back to give the game and the heavier mechs with my somewhat newly bought Ilya a try. Got to say it feels like I've been playing a whole different game.

My expectations were that now I'm slow but can dish out and take a whole new world of damage especially compared to my light mech days. Yet to be honest right now I feel like every wrong step is immediately punished and you can turn from a 100% cataphract to a 0% cataphract within seconds. Just happened to me in a 1on1 vs a jagermech which I thought was easy, isolated prey. Sometimes I have matches with ~700 damage. Sometimes - like that recent match - I die with only 70-100 dmg having done.

Now I wonder..

Was that always the case? Was I taking speed as a way to stay alive that much for granted that I never noticed how fragile even heavy and assault mechs can be? Back then when I dished out damage in my Raven I always felt like they can take incredible amounts of pain before actually going down. If that actually has changed I welcome it as I found it always a bit unrealistic how much hurt you could put on these machines until they actually go down.

Moreover: How to play as a heavy/assault? How to reliably stay alive to deal out the maximum of damage? I still know about torso twist and the general idea to better not stray too far from the savety of the pack or cover but I get the idea especially the early game when battlelines are forming is crucial. Where you can die in an instant while leading an attack and when a missile boat has only a momentary lock on you death is already knocking on my door.

[The Basilisk]

You already mentioned it: SPEED is LIFE

There are very few mechs that are slow and durable or viable at all.

The next thing is there are some Mechs who get focused imediately.
Your Ilya is one of them. Others examples are:

-- Timberwolf

-- Thunderbolt

All those mechs are known to be toptier Mechs and quite dangerous.

Next thing is there had been significant improvements to hitreg and HSR.
So if you try your Raven now, you may be negatively surprised, cause your lagshield is all but gone.
The overal TTK has droped !

So it has become even more important not to:

-- face an enemy for a longer time.

-- stand still if anybody could get a LOS to you

-- running straight courses for extended periods when you could get under fire.

Regarding how to stay alive to deal max dmg.
Never go alone...ever.
Always dazzle the enemy with a good variety of Targets.
Never stand still.
If you are IS and enemy is Clan: DO NOT PEEKABOO !!!!
Get as close as you can and use cool weapons for max dps Clan is too hot for short range and has a significant higher dmg at long range.

If you are Clan vs IS use high Ground and advanced sensors for max range to discern targets and use your supperior range and speed.

Edited by The Basilisk, 27 July 2015 - 04:15 AM.

[Rogue Jedi]

are you playing solo or in groups?

if playing solo there tends to be less coordination between teammates do you are less likely to get focused down.
in group queue if there is a 4+ person group they will probably be calling targets, they may have a lighter Mech act as bait to try to draw you into a position where the rest of the group can focus fire you, if that happens it is unlikely you will last more than 10 seconds.

due to my dislike of most Mechs unable to go 80+ I am possibly not the best persion to offer advice on this but here goes

does your Cataphract run an XL engine?
an XL is a tradeoff of tonnage vs survivability, as you are probably aware if mounting an XL in an Inner Sphere Mech you will die to loosing ether side torso,

the Cataphract is in the weight range where you can mount a decent amount of firepower with a standard engine, or take an XL for significantly more.
if you take a standard engine a Jagermech will most likely outgun you as Jagermechs almost always run an XL to maximize firepower, however Jagermechs have huge side torsos, so if you are facing down a Jagermech which seems to have you outgunned bear in mind that taking off one of its sides will most likely kill it, also if you are using a standard you will be able to take a lot more punishment before going down.
an XL engine allows some of the more powerful builds for the IM like 3 UAC5 or dual Gauss, with sufficient ammo and some MLs as backup weapons, but bear in mind you are trading durability for firepower, and that you can do the same builds on a Jagermech with high mounted hardpoints.

[Asmundeus]

As a mostly heavy (Jäger was my first mech, cata my second) or assault pilot (only have 3 lights or so) i can tell you that the key to survival for mechs like the cata or the Jäger is not speed or a standard engine, it is positioning. Know your place and your time to shine.
Walk with a much more tempting target beside you. Focus with the assault or try to push enemy mechs back into cover so your buddy will survive the push.
In the first half of the fight i try to give firesupport for pushing assaults or to maintain a position on highground to suppress the enemy. You need alot of battleawarness to not show up where the enemy team can focus you. The second half I try to hunt down weakend enemy.
Always remember. You are dangerous but fragile and the enemy knows that too. So dont give them the chance to focus you, and as mentioned before... do not play peekabo against clan, you will loose for sure. If they found you, change your position and wait till they find a bigger fish to fry and then give them hell. You can rack up some serious damage and help the assaults with suppression fire.
If you want a heavy that can brawl and stare into someones face take the thunderbolt, i had a lot of hard times against those or try the dual UAC Enforcer. It plays very similar to a heavy firesupport mech without the downsides (slow and big). You can learn this role alot better with this mech because its so forgiving and agile.
I love my Enforcer and had games with over 900 Damage.

Playing a heavy dps mech is a challenge that needs alot of learning and tolerance to frustration but it is very rewarding as you can be a mayor asset to your team an make some serious cash. (Had games over 400k Cbills with my firebrand)

I wish you all the best and keep us updated on your situation. If the forum is not enough, alot of players here are willing to drop with you to show you the basics.

[-Vompo-]

One good thing to remember in every mech is to keep your eye on the minimap and know what type of terrain there is behind you so that you can pull back after peaking or fall back into cover if enemy decides to push/give chase. This means knowing that you don't have friendly mechs/terrain right behind so you don't get stuck or that you are not in the open when enemy pushes to the piece of cover you are hiding behind. Also choose wisely where you fight. If you are in a catapracht you want to avoid hills. Instead you should look for terrain you can hide behind and move around to fire. Your low mounted weapons are much better suited for that type of combat. The right type of cover doesn't only help you avoid damage but also do more damage yourself.
These things becomes more important the slower the mech you are in is cause you don't necessarly have the speed to get away if you screw up.

[ColdHeat]

First of all thanks for all the help and advice guys. I've read through all of it and will keep it in mind in my next matches.

Yet the solution to my problem was fairly easy and yet it took me a while to understand: the need to experiment.
I found out that just a slight change to my build (changed from XL280 to XL300) of only 10kph more to now 70kph and an added AMS suddenly made a huge impact. Much higher than I could have expected and possibly the speed more than the AMS. Yet I can only take guesses of how effective AMS are, as I typically avoid to use them for some reasons.

Turns out I'm rather a 2nd line / flanking player than the "tip of the spear head" guy. Maybe it's a leftover from my light/medium time. Maybe I just need to get used to heavy/assault play. Maybe the mech ain't the best choice for that frontline approach, only because it's designated "heavy" and rather should be seen as a glascannon with incredible damage output potentional. But more speed works for me wonders. It just feels much more easy to be able to react on the situation of the battlefield instead of the "rail" into doom or glory I felt I was on before with my 60kph mech.

So it appears primarily I had to adjust my mech to my playstyle instead of attempting to master a new one. Suddenly the survivability and kills roll in even though I still have occasional horrible rounds. But as I said before: I never imagined that 10kp/h had such an impact together with the attempt to "stay under the radar" I already used in my YLW before.

Edited by ColdHeat, 27 July 2015 - 07:31 AM.

[Rogue Jedi]

ColdHeat, on 27 July 2015 - 07:24 AM, said:

Yet the solution to my problem was fairly easy and yet it took me a while to understand: the need to experiment.
I found out that just a slight change to my build (changed from XL280 to XL300) of only 10kph more to now 70kph and an added AMS suddenly made a huge impact. Much higher than I could have expected and possibly the speed more than the AMS. Yet I can only take guesses of how effective AMS are, as I typically avoid to use them for some reasons.

Experimentation is very useful, just because a lot of players like a specific loadout does not mean you will, some of the loadouts I run on Clan heavies leave people (including myself) questioning my sanity, but they work for me and that is what matters.

with regards to an AMS basic rule of thumb is an AMS will take out roughly 5 IS LRMs from a volley and 7 Clan LRMs from a volley, so if everyone on your team took 1 AMS that would kill a volley of 60 missiles.

[JonahGrimm]

ColdHeat, on 27 July 2015 - 07:24 AM, said:

First of all thanks for all the help and advice guys. I've read through all of it and will keep it in mind in my next matches.

Yet the solution to my problem was fairly easy and yet it took me a while to understand: the need to experiment.
I found out that just a slight change to my build (changed from XL280 to XL300) of only 10kph more to now 70kph and an added AMS suddenly made a huge impact. Much higher than I could have expected and possibly the speed more than the AMS. Yet I can only take guesses of how effective AMS are, as I typically avoid to use them for some reasons.

That AMS is more effective than you may expect - if you're making good use of cover, shedding locks where you can and running missiles into obstacles, it helps a /lot/. 5-7 missles per volley per AMS - enough to make an LRM-15 into something managable, once you take into account the missed missiles as well, due to your higher speed.

Don't forget, too, that bigger engines also make your mech more 'alive' - your torso twist, arm movement, and convergence all improve with more power, not just your foot speed.

[SmoothCriminal]

ColdHeat, on 27 July 2015 - 07:24 AM, said:

Turns out I'm rather a 2nd line / flanking player than the "tip of the spear head" guy.

The Ilya does very good damage over time but as mentioned by my fellow forumwarriors:

(I) it requires face time (ie staring at an enemy while unloading your AC/UAC 5s); and
(II) it is under armoured for this role.

Accordingly - as above, your best bet is to treat your Ilya like your YLW - stick behind an assault so it can tank for you and unload on whatever said assault is firing on. Teamwork = victory.

As per the AMS chat above - me thoughts are AMS is redundant with a Radar Dep module (so long as you are not too far away from cover, which you never should be). Missiles give you 4-5 seconds to drop back and you can watch the rockets explode on the ground in front of you.

[JC Daxion]

Personally i think running an XL in a catapract is a very bad idea... In my Ilya, i run an AC-20, a pair of machine guns, and a pair of lasers, i forget what though.. (i sold the thing on accident an never replaced it. I'll get it back one day, as it is a wonderful mech)

I ran an STD-260 or STD280 in all my practs.. It's about as fast as a quick assault with that engine, but has enough speed to move around.

Anyways, back to the engine.. XL's you just can't tank well with at all which is why STD's in phracts are pretty much a must. They play a lot like assaults, meaning slower, and you need to twist a lot. If you are not loosing both arms before you loose torso armor are doing it wrong. Practs arms can soak a lot of damage, and so can the left torso, as your right is where you can carry most of your weapons.

the 3D is the only one i would stick a STD300, but even that one i run an STD280, with the JJ's it is maneuverable enough for my taste

Some people run triple UAC5's, but then you loose a lot of your tanking power and have to spend far to much time facing your enemy to do your damage, which is why i run the AC-20, blast um with your ac-20, and a pair or lasers, and twist while they recharage.. then i just stuff a pair of machine guns in the arms.. they add a bit of up close damage, and help add to crits on open armor slots. So when the time comes where i will loose an arm and you will loose one if you are doing it right, i am only loosing a tiny amount of DSP, and crit seekers.

that is my advice on the subject.. I really do enjoy practs, but i play builds that are not the norm on them, but they all play pretty darn well, and are all based around the AC-20, outside of the 4X, i run a pair of 10's and a pair of machine guns with a pair of ML's. It's basically a longer range AC-20, though that mech i tend to do a bit more tanking with my torso, as loosing my arms, is not such a good idea on that mech. But that mech also shines in corner peaking.. you can blast away with one AC-10, with only your arm showing.. so you can do a good deal of damage from pretty much full cover. Works best in city style maps.

Edited by JC Daxion, 28 July 2015 - 02:10 PM.

[ColdHeat]

JC Daxion: I'm going to give it a try. Personally I drive the famous XL + 3 UAC5's combination and found it quite amusing. In the end it possibly comes down to preferred gameplay. Your cataphract is a brawler that has maximum survivability for a phract and a main gun that suits a torso twist playstyle. The XL UAC5 phract is a pure support mech that can do horrendous damage but needs to always be kept in 2nd line or will go down quickly. Both playstyles can be successful but I chose the 3 UAC version as I wanted to make the "most" out of the unique 3 x ballistic slots. As you wrote yourself - while being efficient - you don't necessarily need an Ilya to be able to run a build focused around a single AC20.

[DrSlamastika]

Common, cataphract is one of the best heavies for me and essentially need a XL engine.
Because you need speed, decent loadout and enough ammo. You cannot do this with standard.

Ok maybe you cannot survive the lost one of your side torso but you need play smart like support and team brawler. ( like Diablo 3, I am playing only HARDCORE, its hard but satisfaction if you do it right. )

For me the best is CTF- 4x, I love this mech.

4 x AC5 + 2 x ML with biggest XL engine.

Noone will face you and aim for your XL torso while he is punished with instant fire with lasers final touch.
You need thinking about it, like about long range rapid fire AC20

Sure you need some support from your team.

I am using XL engine in all of my phracts except that 3D champion which was some event award. My other 3D using XL as well.

I think those are a decent stats for XL engines.

Edited by DrSlamastika, 29 July 2015 - 09:49 AM.

[JC Daxion]

ColdHeat, on 29 July 2015 - 06:46 AM, said:

JC Daxion: I'm going to give it a try. Personally I drive the famous XL + 3 UAC5's combination and found it quite amusing. In the end it possibly comes down to preferred gameplay. Your cataphract is a brawler that has maximum survivability for a phract and a main gun that suits a torso twist playstyle. The XL UAC5 phract is a pure support mech that can do horrendous damage but needs to always be kept in 2nd line or will go down quickly. Both playstyles can be successful but I chose the 3 UAC version as I wanted to make the "most" out of the unique 3 x ballistic slots. As you wrote yourself - while being efficient - you don't necessarily need an Ilya to be able to run a build focused around a single AC20.

Very true, I do like to brawl! But for support i have other mechs for that, But really the Illya is one of the few mechs in the game that can run an AC-20 + machine guns.. (something i do in my HBK 4G as well, only it has some large laser backup too.

But nothing wrong with trying both.. When i get a new mech, i try many builds on my way to master, and often tweak them once i get to master. I typically try to follow quirks, but with a twist. I often run a-typical builds, but things i find effective. At this point i have about 3 sets of mechs in each class, so i like um to play unique, but for me Phracts say AC-20! For UAC5's eventually i will get around to leveling the Jag's i have sitting in my bays. But i can say, i have seen many UAC5 Ilya's on the field and doing quite well.

good luck!

Edited by JC Daxion, 29 July 2015 - 02:35 PM.