116 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Widowmaker1981, on 05 August 2015 - 12:59 AM, said:

You are right - it is NOT how it works. How it works (in TT) is you fire the ERPPC, and your heatsinks dissipate the heat before you check the heat scale. Assuming you had 15 SHS you would dissipate all of the heat and suffer no penalty whatsoever.

However in a real time game, you fire the ERPPC and gain 15 heat instantly, putting you at 15 on the heat scale (following the post i quoted's idea), and causing you to suffer the penalties for being at 15 on the heat scale. See the difference? That is why heatsinks add to heatcap, because that is what they do in TT, as an abstraction.

There is the mistake. My 15 sinks should neutralize those 15 points of heat before they are a problem. I generate 22 points of heat firing weapons my sinks neutralize 15 that leaves me with 7 to be bled off over time or during the next heat dump. Its how An Awesome could fire 3/2/3/2/3/2/3/2 cyclic all game and not over heat. It's what made an Awesome awesome.

Heat that the sinks don't dissipate is what put you on the scale. PGI has it wrong.

As to how it's done instantly, The mech is pumping coolant throughout the mech (Like Blood if you will). It would circulate/regulate the Mechs body temp. Excess heat is then pumped out the vents.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 05 August 2015 - 01:35 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Serpieri, on 05 August 2015 - 01:32 AM, said:

Your mech would dissipate heat the moment it's gained - in TT all this took place in a single round. Heat Penalties affected the next round or in the case of real time - the moment your ERPPC is off cooldown to fire again.

So 0.01 seconds after firing 4xERPPCs for 60 heat with 22 DHS you would be at 16 heat? Meaning your heatsinks dissipated 44 heat in 0.01 seconds?That makes literally no sense in a real time environment, and you should feel bad for suggesting it...

[Knight Magus]

Widowmaker1981, on 05 August 2015 - 01:24 AM, said:

The initial 15 heat from the ONE FIRING of the weapon is what i am talking about. Its not about whether the heat is dissiapted before i want to fire again, its about the fact that ever firing your weapon would have a chance to shut you down.

This is an incredibly simple concept and if you dont get it by now i give up.

Please try to understand that TT rules make each turn an abstraction of 10 seconds of time, and thus cannot be directly ported into a real time game without alterations.

That is not how it works in TT and I'm sorry as well if you don't get that. Or did you think In TT when you fired an Erppc and than you fired your lrm that your missiles had a hit penalty? because you were at 15 heat?

[Duke Nedo]

Guys... a complete redesign of the way heat is handled in MWO is extremely unlikely. It has been suggested looong time ago, and during closed beta that could have happened, but since it didn't it's rather safe to assume that PGI is happy with the way heat is dissipated right now, leaving you with a heat buffer that you can use for burst DPS.

This thread is a suggestion of how we could try to turn broken ghost heat into functional ghost heat. That is a change we could realistically hope for... and if we could do that, that does not exclude further redesign of the heat system down the road.

The point is that unless you put a hard heat cap of 30 or below, you will always need some kind of stacking penalty of you don't want people to fire 4+ PPC or LPLs, or 8+ MPL/MLs or whatever. For 2+ AC20's you need some sort of stacking penalty already at 12 heat!

This is something that is common in computer games, no big problem. Usually it's referred to as diminishing returns och stacking penalty. Ghost heat is the same thing, but the implementation is just horrible. With that I don't mean that it's existance is horrible, but that 3 cLPL (39 damage/30 heat) will create ghost heat while 2xcLPL+6cMPLs (74 damage and 56 heat) will not. That is the part that is broken, and this suggestion would fix that.

I feel a bit that this thread is being hijacked to discuss something that will never happen instead, which is a bit sad. I think something along these lines would make MWO a better game, and I think that it's feasible to implement without upsetting already established balance.

[Widowmaker1981]

Knight Magus, on 05 August 2015 - 01:34 AM, said:

That is not how it works in TT and I'm sorry as well if you don't get that. Or did you think In TT when you fired an Erppc and than you fired your lrm that your missiles had a hit penalty? because you were at 15 heat?

NO, i just understand that TT is turn based and MWO is real time, and therefore you cannot apply exactly the same mechanics, because it simply does not work.

[Duke Nedo]

About TT/MWO. You guys talk in circles. In TT the tables deal with Excess heat only, in MWO the heat-o-meter shows all generated heat. It depends on where you place the thermometer! If you want it realistic you'd have to simluate it with a coupled temperatue bath or something I guess....

[Serpieri]

Widowmaker1981, on 05 August 2015 - 01:34 AM, said:

So 0.01 seconds after firing 4xERPPCs for 60 heat with 22 DHS you would be at 16 heat? Meaning your heatsinks dissipated 44 heat in 0.01 seconds?That makes literally no sense in a real time environment, and you should feel bad for suggesting it...

I should feel bad for talking about a battletech mechanic......your a riot

[Joseph Mallan]

Widowmaker1981, on 05 August 2015 - 01:38 AM, said:

NO, i just understand that TT is turn based and MWO is real time, and therefore you cannot apply exactly the same mechanics, because it simply does not work.

Actually we can. If I have 15 Heatsinks and generate 12 points of heat firing weapons... I have 0 excess heat. The Heat Scale measures Excess heat not all heat generated.

[Knight Magus]

Widowmaker1981, on 05 August 2015 - 01:38 AM, said:

NO, i just understand that TT is turn based and MWO is real time, and therefore you cannot apply exactly the same mechanics, because it simply does not work.

Clearly, you don't because you are incapable of understanding what a mechanic is from said examples.

[Widowmaker1981]

I give up. Cant fix stupid.

[Serpieri]

Widowmaker1981, on 05 August 2015 - 01:52 AM, said:

I give up. Cant fix stupid.

Does this mean you gave up on improving yourself?

[Duke Nedo]

Serpieri, on 05 August 2015 - 01:53 AM, said:

Does this mean you gave up on improving yourself?

He does have a point you know. Even if you are dealing with only excess heat you cannot ignore the time perspective. I didn't play TT myself, but from what I've read on these forums, 10 DHS would make 2x PPC heat neutral, right? That means that 10 DHS dissipates 20 heat / 10 seconds. The last part in bold here becomes important the second time you fire the two PPCs. PPCs have a cooldown of 4 seconds.

Ask yourselves: How often can these two PPCs be fired? How much excess heat does it produce the second time? Surely, you don't mean that 10 DHS would heat-neutralize all weapons up to 20 heat every 0.5 seconds (which is the current time-tick for ghost heat)?

There is a reason why PGI redesigned the heat system, because every weapon in MWO have a cooldown time that is not exactly 10 seconds.

[Joseph Mallan]

Duke Nedo, on 05 August 2015 - 02:28 AM, said:

He does have a point you know. Even if you are dealing with only excess heat you cannot ignore the time perspective. I didn't play TT myself, but from what I've read on these forums, 10 DHS would make 2x PPC heat neutral, right? That means that 10 DHS dissipates 20 heat / 10 seconds. The last part in bold here becomes important the second time you fire the two PPCs. PPCs have a cooldown of 4 seconds.

Ask yourselves: How often can these two PPCs be fired? How much excess heat does it produce the second time? Surely, you don't mean that 10 DHS would heat-neutralize all weapons up to 20 heat every 0.5 seconds (which is the current time-tick for ghost heat)?

There is a reason why PGI redesigned the heat system, because every weapon in MWO have a cooldown time that is not exactly 10 seconds.

No. 10 seconds is the turn duration from the first step taken, till heat is dissipated. Heat phase is like the last 2-4 seconds of that 10 second turn. And it is why Excess heat is what is tracked into the beginning of next 10 seconds.

Serpieri, on 05 August 2015 - 01:53 AM, said:

Does this mean you gave up on improving yourself?

Not cool.
...
...
...
Pun unintentional.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 05 August 2015 - 02:32 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 August 2015 - 02:33 AM, said:

No. 10 seconds is the turn duration from the first step taken, till heat is dissipated. Heat phase is like the last 2-4 seconds of that 10 second turn. And it is why Excess heat is what is tracked into the beginning of next 10 seconds.


Not cool.
...
...
...
Pun unintentional.

But, but... that would then mean that 20 heat generated by 2 PPC (4 secs cooldown) would be treated differently than 20 heat generated by 5x MPLs (3 secs cooldown), not to mention modules and quirks??? What if.... you have 10 DHS and fire 5 MPL, then fire 2x PPC after 2 seconds? or after 3 seconds? or after 4 seconds? What would be excess? What if you reverse the order, first fire 2x PPC, then fire 5x MPLs after 3 or 4 seconds? Different result?

You'll have to agree that there is a time-aspect here that can't be ignored... hence the current heat-system. It may suck, but I think it's easy to see why PGI could never copy the TT system.

Edit: the point here is that you'd have to assign a time period during which the heat sinks are "occupied" by dissipating the heat they are currently neutralizing. If you do that, you basically end up with the same system we have today as far as I can see, only visualized in different ways by the thermometer.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 05 August 2015 - 04:30 AM.

[Tom Sawyer]

El Bandito, on 03 August 2015 - 03:56 AM, said:

I personally want a "power draw" system, where each weapon has certain power requirements, along with their heat and ammo requirements. And if the alpha exceeds the max power amount set by PGI, then the rest of the alpha is forced to chain-fire automatically. That way, it is easy to understand and use by the newbies.

Unlike the current convoluted mess that is GH.

El Bandito I thought I was the only person to have suggested that to PGI lol. Even fusion reactors can only produce so much power and everything a mech does is using that. Some table top BT friends and I had a chat one night during a game about just how much power does a Large Laser need let alone a PPC.

[Joseph Mallan]

Duke Nedo, on 05 August 2015 - 04:26 AM, said:

But, but... that would then mean that 20 heat generated by 2 PPC (4 secs cooldown) would be treated differently than 20 heat generated by 5x MPLs (3 secs cooldown), not to mention modules and quirks??? What if.... you have 10 DHS and fire 5 MPL, then fire 2x PPC after 2 seconds? or after 3 seconds? or after 4 seconds? What would be excess? What if you reverse the order, first fire 2x PPC, then fire 5x MPLs after 3 or 4 seconds? Different result?

You'll have to agree that there is a time-aspect here that can't be ignored... hence the current heat-system. It may suck, but I think it's easy to see why PGI could never copy the TT system.

Edit: the point here is that you'd have to assign a time period during which the heat sinks are "occupied" by dissipating the heat they are currently neutralizing. If you do that, you basically end up with the same system we have today as far as I can see, only visualized in different ways by the thermometer.

No. Not really. Cool down is how long your weapon needs to be able to fire again. 20 heat if you have 22 sinks would still be Zero heat left over.
As to a time where they are occupied... What is the mean time for cool down? What ever that is, BOOM length of time it takes to vent heat. Fast cycling Weapons would build heat faster than sinks could vent. But 2.5 times cyclic rate vs at least double the time to vent is even dumber than FASA was for the whole Solaris rules.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 05 August 2015 - 04:53 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 August 2015 - 04:49 AM, said:

No. Not really. Cool down is how long your weapon needs to be able to fire again. 20 heat if you have 22 sinks would still be Zero heat left over.
As to a time where they are occupied... What is the mean time for cool down? What ever that is, BOOM length of time it takes to vent heat. Fast cycling Weapons would build heat faster than sinks could vent. But 2.5 times cyclic rate vs at least double the time to vent is even dumber than FASA was for the whole Solaris rules.

So, in practice, in what way is that different from what we have today? None... If heatsinks have a dissipation per unit of time, that's all. Weapons have a heat generation per time value. It's all the same really. Only difference is if you track the excess (i.e. heat generated above sustained heat generation and plot that) or if you track all heat and all dissipation. They could implement that today by only hiding part of the heat and plot the rest... wouldn't change anything.

We can tweak what we have (like increasing dissipation, raising or lowering the capacity), but we can't remove the time domain from the equation, not in a real time game. What we have is about the way it has to be, it functions like a crude temperature bath coupled to the surrounding temperature (i.e. heat in minus heat out).

Edited by Duke Nedo, 05 August 2015 - 05:04 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Duke Nedo, on 05 August 2015 - 05:03 AM, said:

So, in practice, in what way is that different from what we have today? None... If heatsinks have a dissipation per unit of time, that's all. Weapons have a heat generation per time value. It's all the same really. Only difference is if you track the excess (i.e. heat generated above sustained heat generation and plot that) or if you track all heat and all dissipation. They could implement that today by only hiding part of the heat and plot the rest... wouldn't change anything.

We can tweak what we have (like increasing dissipation, raising or lowering the capacity), but we can't remove the time domain from the equation, not in a real time game. What we have is about the way it has to be, it functions like a crude temperature bath coupled to the surrounding temperature (i.e. heat in minus heat out).

Ok Sinks dissipate in 10 seconds now. We fire on average every 3. So we are putting out 3 times the heat that our Mechs are supposed to be. Now if the sinks vented in say 3 seconds, 2 AC/20s (with 10 standard) would have 2 heat left over when it fired for the second time (give or take), Fire again and I got 4 heat and rising. On 10 Doubles... Well I used to be able to fire 8 times before I noticed heat. Mind you on 10 Doubles my twin AC20s should have never gotten hot, but for this game it ran nice.

It would change everything. If Sinks worked instant with 15 Single Sinks should be able to fire two AC20 together till the bins run dry! Instead we have stupid Ghost Heat!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 05 August 2015 - 05:18 AM.

[Lugh]

Widowmaker1981, on 05 August 2015 - 01:38 AM, said:

NO, i just understand that TT is turn based and MWO is real time, and therefore you cannot apply exactly the same mechanics, because it simply does not work.

BS. You can totally apply the same metrics in BOTH circumstances. The problem is that it requires you to be good at math. And PGI has demonstrated that they don't even wish to adhere to the simple math of the TT rules.

Snake Eyes is 2.9% of all 2d6 rolls. And yet the jam chance on UACs is 25%?!!? Hello? WTF?

[LORD ORION]

No ghost heat when you use Single Heatsinks