52 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

El Bandito, on 03 August 2015 - 09:08 AM, said:

What you failed to realize is that even with such quirk, the Clan CERPPC is every way superior to the IS ERPPC.
In truth, IS ERPPC should be slightly superior to the CERPPC since it weighs more and costs more slots.

So something less sophisticated made with less refined materials should do more damage? I mean if we are talking about a Mace or a Warhammer I might agree.

[Weeny Machine]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 August 2015 - 10:17 AM, said:

So something less sophisticated made with less refined materials should do more damage? I mean if we are talking about a Mace or a Warhammer I might agree.

I don't agree either. However, if you argue like you just did, then clan stuff must be superior and that would call for asynchronous balancing numberwise when it comes to mechs.

[El Bandito]

^ What he says. Keeping the Clans superior will only help population imbalance--something PGI is trying to avoid.

[Mister Blastman]

[Pariah Devalis]

Just putting it out there, with concerns of population imbalance: Don't IS players currently outnumber Clan players 3:1 as of the last data released?

[Kain Demos]

I still see lots of complaining about the "laser vomit meta".

With the number of hardlocked DHS and limited podspace on many omnimechs energy weapons are here to stay folks. Maybe this change to the C-ERPPC would be change many want.

El Bandito, on 03 August 2015 - 09:08 AM, said:

What you failed to realize is that even with such quirk, the Clan CERPPC is every way superior to the IS ERPPC.
In truth, IS ERPPC should be slightly superior to the CERPPC since it weighs more and costs more slots.

Clan equipment and IS equipment will never have the same weight and slots, can you name one Mechwarrior game that has committed that atrocity?

Also, on 'mechs quirked for ERPPCs they most certainly are better than the C-ERPPC.

[Lightfoot]

They won't do that, but speed them up please. ERPPCs have 5x heat of an AC10, that is why they should travel at 1400-1500 mps and be accurate. Players would still use the lighter, cooler, lasers, but some would use ERPPCs too. No one is using PPCs/ERPPCs now except the quirked mechs, so you know they are still worthless at 1100 mps.

Edited by Lightfoot, 03 August 2015 - 11:28 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

ScarecrowES, on 03 August 2015 - 08:27 AM, said:

In fairness, Fandragon... in the tabletop game, one alpha without all that inflation was enough to melt a mech too, if the die rolled in your favor. Remember, we have hardpoint inflation, yes... but we also have double armor and internals per ton and quirks out the Wahoo. Mechs actually take a lot more hits to die than any of the systems they are based on. In tabletop, a single PPC or large laser is something to be feared.

Yeah, but despite all that armor inflation, the TTK is still far, far, far to damn fast, almost on par with the time it would take to kill a mech in TT, and in fact, its far faster really. We might have double armor, but we get like 4x the fire rate and 4x the heat scale.....

What it take in TT to drop a mech? 4 turns? or 40 seconds? whats it take here? like 20s tops.....ive had my Warhawk all but destroyed inside just a couple of bursts...my Hellbringer had its entire side shot off by a stalker in like 2 shots.....

Yes, those weapons should be feared, but not because we are boating 4 of them.......

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 03 August 2015 - 11:28 AM.

[Sable]

Originally i would have been in favor of this as one of my favorite mechs is the Warhawk Prime. But after thinking about i a long time i really don't want the 2 PPC 1 Gauss meta to come back and everyone knows it would. At least not to 15 pin point damage. I like how the splash damage works in theory. If anything i'd like to see CERPPCs do 12 damage with 1.5 splash to either side and in turn i'd like to see PPCs in general get an increase in cooldown time up to 6 seconds from 4. This would make them more of a big punch weapon but not really suitable for sustained dps. Which would in turn hopefully encourage mixed loadouts.

[Antares102]

Lightfoot, on 03 August 2015 - 11:26 AM, said:

They won't do that, but speed them up please. ERPPCs have 5x heat of an AC10, that is why they should travel at 1400-1500 mps and be accurate. Players would still use the lighter, cooler, lasers, but some would used ERPPCs too. No one is using PPCs/ERPPCs now except the quirked mechs, so you know they are still worthless at 1100 mps.

Just to repeat myself:
This should ONLY be an experimental change, which will be REVOKED after 1-2 weeks.
Just to see what it actually does to balance. PGI did it in the past.
If it turns out that it doenst break balance and actually leads to more diverse clan mech builds why not?

Edited by Antares102, 03 August 2015 - 11:31 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Aresye Kerensky, on 03 August 2015 - 08:33 AM, said:

No amount of armor or weapon balancing is going to stop mechs from melting. That's just how focus fire works. 1v1 fights already last a long time.

Stop charging the firing line of a 12man team sitting in a superior position.

When does the enemy not have 12 mechs sitting in a big blob? Ive never seen it.....the game play pretty much forces everyone to blob together. and if no one pokes out ot fire, then its just 15 minutes of sitting there until someone does, and the first one to do so melts.....someone has to do something at some point.

Hell, CW is all about rushing a 12 man blob wiht your own 12 man blob and hoping your blob doesnt melt first......

MWO basically boils down to the Russian horde rushing against the chinese horde and one side dying sooner....no strat, no tactics....just charge the blob, fire till you die....

[Viges]

Buff clans. Reason? Because I want it. /Thread

[Squirg]

Did you know? Apparently we have a test server for ideas like this.

[1453 R]

LordKnightFandragon, on 03 August 2015 - 11:27 AM, said:

Yeah, but despite all that armor inflation, the TTK is still far, far, far to damn fast, almost on par with the time it would take to kill a mech in TT, and in fact, its far faster really. We might have double armor, but we get like 4x the fire rate and 4x the heat scale.....

What it take in TT to drop a mech? 4 turns? or 40 seconds? whats it take here? like 20s tops.....ive had my Warhawk all but destroyed inside just a couple of bursts...my Hellbringer had its entire side shot off by a stalker in like 2 shots.....

Yes, those weapons should be feared, but not because we are boating 4 of them.......

From my understanding of TT, which is admittedly secondhand and limited...a single 'Mech taking heavy fire from 4 or more enemy 'Mechs all at once does indeed pretty much come apart in a single turn's fire, especially later on when the Sphere closes the Clan tech imbalance and gets things like rotary autocannons, heavy PPCs, and other junk. Hell, park most anything under 60 tons in front of a Devastator and it doesn't take multiple enemies to watch something come apart in a single turn's fire.

Two 'Mechs in MWO fighting a duel can and do take over a minute to kill each other, terrain and player skill dependent. But a single 'Mech taking focused fire from 4+ enemies is taking fire from more weight of weaponry than his entire 'Mech consists of. No amount of durability is going to stand up to that kind of pounding, and nor should it. If someone wants to hang their carcass out in plain sight in front of multiple enemies, swift and fiery death should be his lesson why not doing that is the superior idea.

Edited by 1453 R, 03 August 2015 - 11:45 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Assaults and heavies are supposed to lead a charge, be the bastion of defense or offense, yet with the damage output, no one can do anything...its poke out, melt....poke out, melt....

Assaults yes

Dunno about heavies though. Heavies should melt if they get caught in the open.

Assaults should be able to take way more hits than they currently do. But they also shouldnt be as agile either. They should have to rely on lighter mechs to protect their rear armor.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Well, currently most weapons have been boosted 250% (or more) over their original stats. So if we make a 50% reduction across the board. (And remember that this is only looking at base values and not the impact of quirks).

That would place cERPPC at 12 dam / 12 heat with a 4.00 cooldown.
isERPPC would be at 8 dam / 12 heat with its 4.00 cooldown and
isPPC would be at 8 dam / 12 heat with its 4.00 cooldown
Gauss would be 12 dam / 0.80 Heat keeping its 4.00 cooldown and charge.

I'll stop with further examples, but the main thing is that such a change will reduce damage and heat output and would allow dissipation to work better with the reduced heat generation, and so then the next big deal is adjusting Heat Capacity to better fit MWO, with one change to Heat Contain boosting up Dissipation so it gains a ~135% boost instead of a 115% boost currently in relation to the other increased values.

Also, if the cERPPC retains it's splash mechanic it could then be 8 / 3 / 1 as one possibility.

[process]

Antares102, on 03 August 2015 - 08:16 AM, said:

Several times PGI has done some experimental and temporary changes to check whether they are feasible. My proposal would be to change the CER-PPC such that it does 15 points of damage to one zone again for a short period of time i.e. 1-2 weeks.

I read that as:

- increase pinpoint damage to 15 points
- increase cooldown to 1-2 weeks

[Kain Demos]

1453 R, on 03 August 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

From my understanding of TT, which is admittedly secondhand and limited...a single 'Mech taking heavy fire from 4 or more enemy 'Mechs all at once does indeed pretty much come apart in a single turn's fire, especially later on when the Sphere closes the Clan tech imbalance and gets things like rotary autocannons, heavy PPCs, and other junk. Hell, park most anything under 60 tons in front of a Devastator and it doesn't take multiple enemies to watch something come apart in a single turn's fire.

Two 'Mechs in MWO fighting a duel can and do take over a minute to kill each other, terrain and player skill dependent. But a single 'Mech taking focused fire from 4+ enemies is taking fire from more weight of weaponry than his entire 'Mech consists of. No amount of durability is going to stand up to that kind of pounding, and nor should it. If someone wants to hang their carcass out in plain sight in front of multiple enemies, swift and fiery death should be his lesson why not doing that is the superior idea.

Focused 'mechs do go down hard in TT too. Take more than 20 dmg in a turn and you need to make a roll just to keep your ass upright.

[Vlad Striker]

I think some omni-pods must have -40% heat generation (total) from cErPPC to restore original 200% bust from DHS as intended. That will be solution of all the problems.

[Weeny Machine]

Kain Demos, on 03 August 2015 - 11:03 AM, said:

I still see lots of complaining about the "laser vomit meta".

With the number of hardlocked DHS and limited podspace on many omnimechs energy weapons are here to stay folks. Maybe this change to the C-ERPPC would be change many want.



Clan equipment and IS equipment will never have the same weight and slots, can you name one Mechwarrior game that has committed that atrocity?

Also, on 'mechs quirked for ERPPCs they most certainly are better than the C-ERPPC.

Just be honest: the laser vomit will not stay because of the equipment but because pointing a laser at a target without having to bother about velocity is the MAIN reason. Even if you miss to some degree a portion will land on the target