212 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Jazzbandit1313, on 03 August 2015 - 04:19 PM, said:

Makes sense to me.

or put something like a 1.5x multiplier on structure across the board.

OR

Not so much a TT purist rather someone who doesn't want to take 4 minutes to kill an enemy Mech. I hit you with 2-4 70 point Alphas I want you dropped!

[Juodas Varnas]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 August 2015 - 02:03 AM, said:

Not so much a TT purist rather someone who doesn't want to take 4 minutes to kill an enemy Mech. I hit you with 2-4 70 point Alphas I want you dropped!

Well, in my opinion, you shouldn't be able to vomit out 2-4 70 point Alphas without exploding yourself.

What we need, is reworking the heat-system.

[TOGSolid]

Juodas Varnas, on 04 August 2015 - 02:09 AM, said:

Well, in my opinion, you shouldn't be able to vomit out 2-4 70 point Alphas without exploding yourself.

The fact that's even a thing is a part of why MWO is garbage.

Edited by TOGSolid, 04 August 2015 - 02:17 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Juodas Varnas, on 04 August 2015 - 02:09 AM, said:

Well, in my opinion, you shouldn't be able to vomit out 2-4 70 point Alphas without exploding yourself.

What we need, is reworking the heat-system.

LOL (My) Stone Rhino With 2 ERPPC and 3 Gauss 75 Point alpha followed by a 60 point 1 PPC 3 Gauss can fire like that till the ammo runs out or there is nothing left to shoot! Been doing that on TT for 25 years! Seems like we have bigger babies than TT players do.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 04 August 2015 - 02:34 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

TOGSolid, on 04 August 2015 - 01:58 AM, said:

This discussion always comes down to the long standing problems with convergence and heat and neither of those things are being changed ever so it's a moot topic at this point.

I forgot the extreme range. I wonder why it isn’t discussed more often despite being quite a factor when it comes to low TTK and imbalance in general.

Let’s see…

• You can hardly be out of range, some damage will be applied
  
• Not every weapon system has extreme range creating imbalance
  
• Hitscan weapons with extreme range because velocity is no factor and do not even require ammo. Say hello to laser spam meta
  
• DPS builds are hardly to be seen. All resolves spamming a high alpha from a long range and then hunker back in cover
  
• Brawlers are also less common simply because they have to cross a larger distance to get into their effective range

[JernauM]

TTK is only low if you commit a tactical error, such as getting yourself focused by a large number of enemy mechs, standing still while piloting a lightly armored mech, or letting someone sneak up behind you.

[DivineEvil]

Yeah, I agree that TTK is a bit too low. Doubling the armor values alone is not enough to compensate for the 2,5 times increase in fire rate, minimum.

I think we should have Single HSs to have 1.4 efficiency, and Double HSs to get back to 2.0 efficiency, but in return dramatically reduce the basic heat capacity. AFAIK, it is 40 points now, and we can basically cut it in half. That would make boating and alpha-striking build highly susceptible to overheating and less desirable, and mixed-weapon layouts more effective. Changes to heatsinks in turn will make over-time combat and PPCs to work better in current balance framework.

EDIT: Nah, it's 30 + bonus from heatsinks. But still.

Quote

• You can hardly be out of range, some damage will be applied
  
• Not every weapon system has extreme range creating imbalance
  
• Hitscan weapons with extreme range because velocity is no factor and do not even require ammo. Say hello to laser spam meta
  
• DPS builds are hardly to be seen. All resolves spamming a high alpha from a long range and then hunker back in cover
  
• Brawlers are also less common simply because they have to cross a larger distance to get into their effective range.

None of this has any relevance to the topic.
- You always can be. Dual gauss JM6-A can effortlessly pound damage into you and ignore any lasers you shoot him back with at around 1,5km range. Short-range weapons are more clear example where it's not true. Besides, "some" damage is not that important. Effective damage is what makes difference.
- Not every weapon supposed to have extreme range. The only extreme range weapons are Gauss and LRM. One is a laughing stock of accuracy, and another is heaviest weapon in the game, that explodes from an angry scream. Weapon balance is fine.
- If you're talking about ERLL, theres no point to tell anything beside that. In short-range combat, they overheat you, and you're dead.
- It's player behavior problem, and not balance problem. DPS builds dominate the field when people cooperate (proven by CW phase1, and remains so today). If vast majority players do not care for their teammates, there's no point to expect for any of them them to fight openly.
- Brawlers are less common because people cannot help them to do their work - they just letting them die for nothing, and keep hiding and peeking and running away from anything. Range has nothing to do with it.

Edited by DivineEvil, 04 August 2015 - 03:15 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

JernauM, on 04 August 2015 - 02:42 AM, said:

TTK is only low if you commit a tactical error, such as getting yourself focused by a large number of enemy mechs, standing still while piloting a lightly armored mech, or letting someone sneak up behind you.

Sometimes its not a tactical error so much as a judgement call. Do I put up with a light in my rear while I try to kill the Dire Wolf in front of me. Even if I die to the back stabbing, that Dire is in bad shape when I drop.

[STEF_]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 August 2015 - 02:32 AM, said:

LOL (My) Stone Rhino With 2 ERPPC and 3 Gauss 75 Point alpha followed by a 60 point 1 PPC 3 Gauss can fire like that till the ammo runs out or there is nothing left to shoot! Been doing that on TT for 25 years! Seems like we have bigger babies than TT players do.

But your Stone Rhine do not have instant magic convergence

[LordKnightFandragon]

Stefka Kerensky, on 04 August 2015 - 02:56 AM, said:

But your Stone Rhine do not have instant magic convergence

Or any armor with that many big ass guns.....

[Joseph Mallan]

Stefka Kerensky, on 04 August 2015 - 02:56 AM, said:

But your Stone Rhine do not have instant magic convergence

But it doesn't need it either!
Half armor vs 5 15 point pops. That wrecks a lot of Mechs even if I hit 5 different locations!

LordKnightFandragon, on 04 August 2015 - 02:58 AM, said:

Or any armor with that many big ass guns.....

Type/Model: Stone Rhino 2
Mass: 100 tons
Equipment: Crits Mass
Internal Structure: 152 pts Endo Steel 7 5.00
(Endo Steel Loc: 1 LA, 1 RA, 3 LT, 2 RT)
Engine: 300 XL 10 9.50
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: 16 Double [32] 8 6.00
(Heat Sink Loc: 1 LT, 1 CT, 1 LL, 1 RL)
Gyro: 4 3.00
Cockpit, Life Support: 5 3.00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA+LA, R: Sh+UA+LA 14 .00
Armor Factor: 304 pts Standard 0 19.00
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 31 50
Center Torso (Rear): 11
L/R Side Torso: 21 32/32
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 10/10
L/R Arm: 17 34/34
L/R Leg: 21 41/41
Weapons & Equipment: Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
1 Gauss Rifle RA 1 48 12 18.00
(Ammo Loc: 2 LA, 2 RA, 2 LT)
1 Gauss Rifle LA 1 6 12.00
1 ER PPC RT 15 2 6.00
1 Gauss Rifle RT 1 6 12.00
1 ER PPC LT 15 2 6.00
1 Variable Range System HD 1 .50
TOTALS: 33 77 100.00
Crits & Tons Left: 1 .00

Near full armor baby!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 04 August 2015 - 03:12 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Half armor vs 5 15 point pops. That wrecks a lot of Mechs even if I hit 5 different locations!

tabletop has to-hit rolls though. Its highly unlikely that youd hit with all 5 gauss/erppcs. Especially at long range.

the fact tabletop has to-hit rolls is one of the major reasons TTK is longer in tabletop. that and random hit locations.

MWO has nothing like tabletop range modifiers or terrain defense modifiers (if you stand in a forest you have less of a chance of being hit). Even hitting light mechs running full speed in MWO isnt a problem for most laser vomit builds. And jumping often makes you easier to hit in MWOrather than harder to hit like in tabletop.

The lack of such things is the reason why the long-range meta is so out of control in MWO. Long-range weapons in tabletop are limited by all of the above factors. None of which are present in MWO. That why most of the long-range weapons in MWO, specifically the clan lasers, need severe range nerfs.

Edited by Khobai, 04 August 2015 - 03:24 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 04 August 2015 - 03:17 AM, said:

tabletop has to-hit rolls though. Its highly unlikely that youd hit with all 5 gauss/erppcs. Especially at long range.

the fact tabletop has to-hit rolls is one of the major reasons TTK is longer in tabletop. that and random hit locations.

MWO has nothing like tabletop range modifiers or terrain defense modifiers (if you stand in a forest you have less of a chance of being hit). Even hitting light mechs running full speed isnt a problem for most laser vomit builds. And jumping often makes you easier to hit rather than harder to hit like in tabletop.

No Cause my best Pilot was in that Rhino, So hitting with 3-5 Shots was pretty easy. And I didn't have to put more than one round in a location on many Mechs and hitting Range(+3) your movement 5 hexes(+2) I stand still need 5 to hit +1 for my Gunnery 6
First rolls
5+2 = 7
3+3 = 6
1+4 = 5
3+1 = 4
4+3 = 7
3 hits
Locations:
4+4 = 8
4+3 = 7
6+6 = 12(Oh Sorry yer dead!)

Numbers generated using Ricks dice roller.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 04 August 2015 - 03:29 AM.

[Raggedyman]

Wintersdark, on 03 August 2015 - 04:59 PM, said:

See the problem? You make Heavies and Assaults vastly more survivable, but barely touch Lights and Mediums. If you're a heavy or assault pilot, that may seem fine, but it's terrible in a game that's already heavily skewed to big mechs. Imagine trying to take on an Atlas in a Jenner after armor is doubled again.

IMO the fact that you're talking about making a scout unit viable against a mobile weapons platform shows where a chunk of the problem is: there is little to do in the current game modes other than kill things. If more rewarding and victory necessary activities were put in (like everything Role-Warfare was supposed to be about) then we wouldn't be having this conversation as people would be going "well why is the Jenner not off doing X, as they should be".

Jazzbandit1313, on 03 August 2015 - 04:19 PM, said:

My TT Purist hate is that Scouts don't have a bigger role scouting, so have had to become brawlers to have any meaningful activity in a game. If I were playing TT and someone gave me the Skirmish game mode as a mission I'd just load up with heavies and assaults.

Edited by Raggedyman, 04 August 2015 - 03:47 AM.

[PurpleNinja]

Bush Hopper, on 04 August 2015 - 01:10 AM, said:

Who says that? The board tells another story and my friends who play MWO also complain about the low TTK

Almost everyone when there's still 7 minutes remaining and I'm the only mech left on my team, piloting an ECM sniper Raven.

[Widowmaker1981]

Khobai, on 04 August 2015 - 03:17 AM, said:

tabletop has to-hit rolls though. Its highly unlikely that youd hit with all 5 gauss/erppcs. Especially at long range.

the fact tabletop has to-hit rolls is one of the major reasons TTK is longer in tabletop. that and random hit locations.

MWO has nothing like tabletop range modifiers or terrain defense modifiers (if you stand in a forest you have less of a chance of being hit). Even hitting light mechs running full speed in MWO isnt a problem for most laser vomit builds. And jumping often makes you easier to hit in MWOrather than harder to hit like in tabletop.

The lack of such things is the reason why the long-range meta is so out of control in MWO. Long-range weapons in tabletop are limited by all of the above factors. None of which are present in MWO. That why most of the long-range weapons in MWO, specifically the clan lasers, need severe range nerfs.

Tabletop has to hit rolls which simulate pilot skill. Which we do not need to simulate, because we are the pilots and aim ourselves. You could argue that it should be harder to hit, sure... (movement/heat based reticle sway/bloom) but it does have terrain and movement to hit modifiers already, it is considerably harder to hit a fast light than a fat assault, and it is considerably harder to hit a mech that is only poking 1/5 of its area out from behind a hill than it is to hit one completely in the open.

The main reason mechs die faster is that we are not all mentally challenged people who cannot hit a 100 ton behemoth from 100 paces more than 50% of the time, and thats what TT pilots are.

[Joseph Mallan]

Widowmaker1981, on 04 August 2015 - 03:56 AM, said:

The main reason mechs die faster is that we are not all mentally challenged people who cannot hit a 100 ton behemoth from 100 paces more than 50% of the time, and thats what TT pilots DICE are.

Ok Thats better

[D34DMetal]

Armor was already doubled so no. If anything it should be lowered back to TT values along with weapon rebalancing.

[Lugh]

Jazzbandit1313, on 03 August 2015 - 04:19 PM, said:

Makes sense to me.

or put something like a 1.5x multiplier on structure across the board.

OR

The first because people despite the crying to the contrary, like their targets to die fast and furious. Doubling armor would curtail that.

The second won't happen because small numbers make gamers sad. Eg 5 damage a laser is already small enough.
If you REALLY want to satisfy the small minded gamers multiply everything by 1000. Then while they are marveling at 60000 damage strikes you can double the armor and they can feel even MORE super because they took 120000 damage to kill. UBER!!

[Rushmoar]

Jazzbandit1313, on 03 August 2015 - 04:19 PM, said:

Makes sense to me.

or put something like a 1.5x multiplier on structure across the board.

1st it has been done already. 2nd this will only help the assaults and their friends and will hurt the lights the most. I guess we want there to be even less lights in the que. Think about what you are really asking here.

Say a light has a cup of armor and an assault is a gallon of armor. A medium laser does 5 damage. How long do you think it will take the laser to burn through 2 cups of armor compared to 2 gallons of armor? This will hurt lights and game play in general. Using cover will be more trivial now and every one will face tank FTW. Unfortunitly quirks are better at the moment untill they put in their rebalance system in play.