237 replies to this topic

[NocturnalBeast]

M4rtyr, on 05 August 2015 - 02:48 PM, said:

No it's broken beyond that.. It's one of the reason ballistics are less useful (outside the ever present Gauss) and why lasers are the top meta right now. Heat is broken.

I would like to see all quirks and Ghost Heat removed and all weapons and equipment operate like they do in table top. I would also like to see people have to choose to use to be either IS, or Clan (even in solo queue) and the Clan team only has 10 players vs the IS 12.

[Mcgral18]

WM Quicksilver, on 05 August 2015 - 02:51 PM, said:

Any sort of heat system revamp is not going to change SHS being bad. Not sure why people keep thinking that fixing the heat system magically fixes the balance between SHS and DHS.

It's also easier to adjust 2 variables than to change the whole heat system.
At least, I hope that's all the change you'd need for adjusting SHSs...



At this point in time, I realize we need simple, realistic suggestions and solutions.

Edited by Mcgral18, 05 August 2015 - 03:09 PM.

[M4rtyr]

WM Quicksilver, on 05 August 2015 - 02:51 PM, said:

Any sort of heat system revamp is not going to change SHS being bad. Not sure why people keep thinking that fixing the heat system magically fixes the balance between SHS and DHS.

They are supposed to be worse then doubles.. hello, it's the freaking point.

But they can still be effective in the right build, problem is the only 'right' builds now are laser boats, so DHS it is.

Mcgral18, on 05 August 2015 - 02:55 PM, said:

It's also easier to adjust 2 variables than to change the whole heat system.
At least, I hope that's all the change you'd need for changing SHS...



At this point in time, I realize we need simple, realistic suggestions and solutions.

Which means more work around and bandaids... meaning the base problem still exists and making balance more and more complicated, if not simply impossible.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

M4rtyr, on 05 August 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:

They are supposed to be worse then doubles.. hello, it's the freaking point.

Hello, this isn't Tabletop...this is a PvP game with no tier system, SHS serve nothing more than as a noob trab and upgrading from them being a tax.

M4rtyr, on 05 August 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:

But they can still be effective in the right build, problem is the only 'right' builds now are laser boats, so DHS it is.

Lasers has nothing to do with it, outside dual Gauss, there is not one reason you should ever use SHS over DHS.

[Pjwned]

The biggest reason that SHS is garbage is the engine heatsinks are only 0.1 dissipation, so fix that either by normalizing SHS engine heatsinks to 0.2 (less work to implement) or normalizing DHS engine heatsinks to 0.1 dissipation (a lot more work to implement) so that 1 upgrade is not vastly superior over the other for no extra tonnage or crit slots. The game is clearly balanced around having at least 2.0 base dissipation, but as it is now if you pick SHS you just get the shaft because you automatically lose 1.0 dissipation (and heat threshold too as a result) and it's just stupid and it only serves to make DHS a 1.5m c-bill tax on every mech.

Additionally, mechs with sub-250 engines shouldn't be screwed out of heat dissipation on top of having less crit space due to mandatory external heatsinks, because if you have a sub-250 engine then any external (double) heatsinks are 1.4 even if those heatsinks are simply there for the minimum 10 heatsinks. There's no way to say that's fair when those mechs already have less crit space due to external heatsinks, and it's also not fair when all mechs are supposed to be balanced with each other, so all mechs should have 10 heatsinks with 0.2 dissipation no matter where they're located or what upgrade the mech has and that way mechs aren't objectively penalized for choosing different upgrades or engines.

M4rtyr, on 05 August 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:

They are supposed to be worse then doubles.. hello, it's the freaking point.

What is the point of having SHS if DHS is always going to be better? Literally the only point is to serve as a c-bill tax, and that's garbage.

In Tabletop you did actually have a reason to use cheaper equipment and as a result there was a reason to use SHS, but here you don't have any reason to do that other than lacking funds (which means grinding or paying up some shekels) so SHS might as well not exist.

Edited by Pjwned, 05 August 2015 - 03:28 PM.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

WM Quicksilver, on 05 August 2015 - 02:51 PM, said:

Any sort of heat system revamp is not going to change SHS being bad. Not sure why people keep thinking that fixing the heat system magically fixes the balance between SHS and DHS.

Simple enough solution is to make DHS add cooling and SHS add heat capicity. That way if you want a high powered energy weapon alpha you have to go SHS and if you want DPS you go DHS.

Both have a purpose, both are useful.

[M4rtyr]

WM Quicksilver, on 05 August 2015 - 03:12 PM, said:

Hello, this isn't Tabletop...this is a PvP game with no tier system, SHS serve nothing more than as a noob trab and upgrading from them being a tax.

Lasers has nothing to do with it, outside dual Gauss, there is not one reason you should ever use SHS over DHS.

LOL... except DHS's should only be available with XL Engines. But if all the mechanics weren't borked to hell you could actually have a very good build with a standard engine that gives you more survivablity (or should), SHS, and ballistics. But for various reason... pinpoint damage, screwed up heat balance, screwed up weapon balance, etc... you can't actually do that so everyone is funneled into DHS.

BTW, the TT was also a PvP game with no tier system... and this game uses alot of the base numbers from it, just very poorly, that's why things don't work. If you're going to say how the two are different I suggest you actually know something about both first.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 05 August 2015 - 03:23 PM, said:

Simple enough solution is to make DHS add cooling and SHS add heat capicity. That way if you want a high powered energy weapon alpha you have to go SHS and if you want DPS you go DHS.

Both have a purpose, both are useful.

That has nothing to do with a revamp of heat mechanics though, that is simply editing values of the heat sinks akin to what Mcgral is suggesting.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

M4rtyr, on 05 August 2015 - 03:24 PM, said:

LOL... except DHS's should only be available with XL Engines.

Ummmm, wut......DHS weren't strictly limited to XL Engines anywhere in Battletech and several stock variants would have to be changed to accommodate that sort of rule, which doesn't make any sort of sense.

You are also confused, a standard engine isn't going to run ballistics because of the tonnage requirement they entail. Which is why you typically saw ballistic heavy mech like the Thunder Hawk run XLs where as energy heavy mechs like the Awesome be standards or compact.

M4rtyr, on 05 August 2015 - 03:24 PM, said:

BTW, the TT was also a PvP game with no tier system... and this game uses alot of the base numbers from it, just very poorly, that's why things don't work. If you're going to say how the two are different I suggest you actually know something about both first.

TT was a PvP RTS game (the RTS part does play a factor, and forgot to mention it), and it did have tiers, or did you forget tech levels (though they were later ditched). The base numbers were terrible and didn't work during the CB days, which is why many were changed. How people still believe this game would be balanced if we copied the TT numbers is beyond me.

[Deathlike]

I feel like something as simple a change to make things "less than crappy" has to be met by "because TT" or the more important answer "because tradition".

If we always have to rely on such logic, we'd never have progress... whether it is a video game or just real life.

Sometimes "tradition" is blatantly wrong (even the guy that invented Clans and their tech admitted as such) and making SHS "junk" is simply intending to be arbitrary for no productive reason.

I'm not saying that we should totally break tradition, but there some things that never advanced.. and having SHS be that thing to "never advance" is sad. There are plenty of games where even the weakest of junk can be made useful or valuable to a degree. SHS should not be "the new player trap" as "tradition" currently entails.

Edited by Deathlike, 05 August 2015 - 04:09 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

One small step for SHS, one giant leap for MWO!

[M4rtyr]

Deathlike, on 05 August 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:

I feel like something as simple a change to make things "less than crappy" has to be met by "because TT" or the more important answer "because tradition".

If we always have to rely on such logic, we'd never have progress... whether it is a video game or just real life.

Sometimes "tradition" is blatantly wrong (even the guy that invented Clans and their tech admitted as such) and making SHS "junk" is simply intending to be arbitrary for no productive reason.

I'm not saying that we should totally break tradition, but there some things that never advanced.. and having SHS be that thing to "never advance" is sad. There are plenty of games where even the weakest of junk can be made useful or valuable to a degree. SHS should not be "the new player trap" as "tradition" currently entails.

That's the thing, SHS have their place in 'tradition'. But when every thing else is broken and that place is no longer needed because anyone can use DHS and lasers are best then why bother.... Fix everything else around them and SHS are fine.

[Deathlike]

M4rtyr, on 05 August 2015 - 05:12 PM, said:

That's the thing, SHS have their place in 'tradition'. But when every thing else is broken and that place is no longer needed because anyone can use DHS and lasers are best then why bother.... Fix everything else around them and SHS are fine.

Fixing everything else doesn't help SHS. In what actual situation would SHS help on a seriously heat driven mech build?

[Dino Might]

SHS - the only thing more useless than a flamer...

[Tincan Nightmare]

Well they could make SHS 1.4 and make DHS 1.8, then we can at least tell new players the decimal point was doubled .

[Pjwned]

M4rtyr, on 05 August 2015 - 05:12 PM, said:

That's the thing, SHS have their place in 'tradition'. But when every thing else is broken and that place is no longer needed because anyone can use DHS and lasers are best then why bother.... Fix everything else around them and SHS are fine.

SHS would remain garbage even if everything else was "fixed" because the moment you unlock DHS you get an additional 1.0 dissipation (assuming a 250+ engine, but that needs to be changed) for no extra weight or crit slots and the game is clearly balanced around having that 2.0 base dissipation from engine heatsinks.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Single heat sinks are fine, it is double heat stinks that have a problem, SHS are the foundation and work well in there (albeit abandoned) role. Personally I'd like to see the current iteration of DHS removed, scrapped and reworked. Unfortunate that won't happen beside PGI offices are on flood plain, and the tears would down them.

[Dino Might]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 05 August 2015 - 03:23 PM, said:

Simple enough solution is to make DHS add cooling and SHS add heat capicity. That way if you want a high powered energy weapon alpha you have to go SHS and if you want DPS you go DHS.

Both have a purpose, both are useful.

You sir, are a genius. With the numbers tweaked correctly, this would add a lot of interesting mech diversity. Clans would probably complain because they don't get singles, but what happens is they can't alpha vomit as much, but they can DPS even better. You then get the real difference between IS and Clan - IS is spike damage, Clan is more DPS. I think your idea is exactly what should be done.

Edited by Dino Might, 05 August 2015 - 06:27 PM.

[El Bandito]

WM Quicksilver, on 05 August 2015 - 02:51 PM, said:

Any sort of heat system revamp is not going to change SHS being bad. Not sure why people keep thinking that fixing the heat system magically fixes the balance between SHS and DHS.

Giving SHS more dissipation, can be a good trade off. Now you can choose between more capacity--DHS, or more dissipation--SHS.

[NocturnalBeast]

El Bandito, on 05 August 2015 - 06:43 PM, said:

Giving SHS more dissipation, can be a good trade off. Now you can choose between more capacity--DHS, or more dissipation--SHS.

Doh, come on, SHS are supposed to be SINGLE HEAT SINKS, they do not need to be buffed, earn some freaking Cbills and upgrade to DHS already!